Are Property Taxes Becoming Confiscatory?

[Bill Call]

There will obviously have to be cuts somewhere.

I agree. What kind of cuts?

[Gary Rice]

The kind of cuts arrived at through the collective bargaining process.

[Bob Mehosky]

Its not so much that they're confiscatory, it's the makeup of the city. If you have no industry or large businesses paying taxes (and bringing in non-resident income taxes), you've got problems making your nut.

Compare the cities with high services and low taxes to Lakewood. It's not a question of management, it's a matter of economics.

Lakewood suffers from what's probably it's biggest asset - dense, diverse population and no room to grow. Per square mile you need more cops, firemen, schools, etc. Add on that all of its infrastructure is 50-100 years old and you've got a tough nut to crack.

Compare that to Avon Lake, which is much less densely populated (and has the Ford Plant) or Independence (with all the businesses on Rockside Road). Property taxes are 30-50% less than Lakewood and no income tax. Plus they have free rec centers.

It's all well and good to talk about cutting taxes, but if you can't find another revenue stream, you're just making a bad problem even worse.

[ryan costa]

the more sprawl there is, the higher property tax rates will rise eventually.

the eventuality is pretty consistent across the nation.

exceptions being perhaps vast new subdivisions of retiree "communities".
but then the HOA will get you. and in these cases, the zoning and codes and marketing are designed to to escalate property "values"...to keep undesirables out.
for some reason, it isn't inflation when property values keep going up.

[Tim Liston]

Stephen you have pilloried Bill for his proposed solutions to an upcoming eight-figure school budget deficit. If I recount his remarks correctly, he is opposed to increased property taxes, feeling that Lakewood property owners already provide enough and that voters presumably won’t approve more if asked. And apparently (and I’m kind of extrapolating) he also thinks that the other revenue sources (state, stimulus) are also tapped out. Oh and that dropping incomes and property values will further erode LCSD revenue sources. So tell us please, how would you close the huge budget gap? Specifically. Please….

[Gary Rice]

In all candor, I hope from the bottom of my heart that the good conversation and the generally positive atmosphere that we have here in Lakewood will help us face the school budget issue together with all eyes on a solution-building process.

As a former school teacher for another district, I can well recall that district's financial struggles going back many years.

Some of the "solutions" to school financial issues can be absolutely heartbreaking, and can include staff reductions, building closings, pay-to-participate activities, and popular program reductions and/or eliminations. Staff and student morale can also become a significant issue, if there is a feeling that a community might not be willing to support their schools. Home valuations can also plummet even more than they already have, if the perception exists that a community does not support its public schools.

Public schools, in many ways, are the proverbial "canary in the mine shaft" of a community. Their condition truly represents a bellwether towards indicating the overall health of a community.

Hopefully, all parties involved in Lakewood will resolve to arrive at workable budget solutions with the least amount of disruption possible.

All just my opinion here, but I do hope that our local leaders will have the vision to avoid some of the issues that have affected other communities.

Back to the banjo...

[Bill Call]

Some of the "solutions" to school financial issues can be absolutely heartbreaking, and can include staff reductions, building closings, pay-to-participate activities, and popular program reductions and/or eliminations.

If I am elected to the School Board I'm pretty sure I'll be signing on to a tax increase.

Before that happens I'll be expecting (hoping) for true concessions and not the false concessions we usually see like eliminating sports and educational programs while handing out another series of raises.

A start would be the eight hour day properly supervised and properly reported.

I'm actually very easy to get along with. WhileI intend to be a strong voice for the people of Lakewood I don't intend to engage in some kind of ideological mission. While it might seem counterintuitive my calls for concessions and longer school days are grounded in my strong support of public education. The current system cannot continue without fundemental reform.

If it doesn't reform it will disappear.

[Jim O'Bryan]

All just my opinion here, but I do hope that our local leaders will have the vision to avoid some of the issues that have affected other communities.

Back to the banjo...

Gary

I know you will understand me using you for the diving board to jump into this discussion.

Why would you think Lakewood Civic Leaders are even capable of that kind of thinking.

The only member of the schools that really thought out of the box, the only way we avoid
what every other city falls through, was Diamond Dave Estrop. While he could think outside
the box, the plans were always very hollow with almost zero follow through. Which again
is the Lakewood style, announce it, say anything, then move on to the next announcement.

In talking with and listening to the next group come in, none that I have heard have an
answer to t he massive deficit put in place by the perfect storm of the failing economy,
the failing home prices, and just ridiculous management.

This is why I have to think, everything has to be on the table. Cuts, taxes, and a whole
lot of out of the box thinking. But again, this school board, or at least the core group
and their new "runners" seem eager to sell the buildings. While potentially good idea
we are now seeing enrollment numbers rise. So you sell a building today for $2 million
and need to build one down the road for $12 million makes little sense.

Let's remember this is the crew that was working with the current School Board President
to get concessions, until he went out of town and they quickly approved the current
contract with ZERO Concessions and I believe some raises while he was gone and could
not vote. I believe the term is "greasing the skids."

Just like in the city where massive cuts are being made, and everyone stands around
saying, "Who could possible of seen this coming..." makes me think, "Really you did
not see this coming?"

This community is in a really tight place, but those that drove the bus blindly here are still
be rewarded with blind allegiance, and "hope" they they will come up with something new.
Like hoping the tooth fairy will bring you a $50.

Well if we tear down 4 homes, and put up another place that sells burgers, and devalues
another 20 homes, soon, we will not need any schools, just more clinics. Wait! I just
stumbled on the plan! OMG!!!


FWIW


.

[Tim Liston]

Last Thursday Tim Liston asked Stephen....

"So (Stephen) tell us please, how would you close the huge (LCSD) budget gap? Specifically. Please…."

Crickets....

[Bill Call]

quote="Tim Liston"]Last Thursday Tim Liston asked Stephen....

"So (Stephen) tell us please, how would you close the huge (LCSD) budget gap? Specifically. Please…."

Crickets....[/quote]

When school boards or government unions talk about cuts what they mean is things like stop buying text books, eliminate the football team and put off fixing the roof.

In the unlikely event I'm elected to the school board I won't be signing on to any tax increases unless the board signs on to meaningful cuts. Of course I'd actually prefer that the board look to other ideas like running one elementary school as a teacher run, school board run charter school.

The idea being: OK teachers, here's the school, here are the students throw out the contract and the rule book whenever possible and have at it. The Board will be back in six months to see how things are going.

It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future, but I'm predicting the voters choose the status quo. I'm also predicting the voters will reject SB5 which means the taxpayers will have to seek their own protection under the law by limiting property taxes to 1% of assessed value.

[Scott Meeson]

Let's remember this is the crew that was working with the current School Board President
to get concessions, until he went out of town and they quickly approved the current
contract with ZERO Concessions and I believe some raises while he was gone and could
not vote. I believe the term is "greasing the skids."

FWIW

.

Jim,

Interesting comment. Is Matthew John Markling willing to verify that his fellow board members disrespected him in such a despicable act of opportunism? I mean, is that really how it went down?

[stephen davis]

Tim,

Homes here in Lakewood are worthless, particularly if you do not have children attending school.

For the last three years or so I have been trying to convince my wife to get the heck out of here.

I hope to be gone when my youngest graduates from high school, June of 2013.

Those of us that intend to stay in Lakewood, unlike you, will be voting for Lakewood’s future.

Had I known my property taxes would double on my home that has increased so little in value, I would have never moved here.

Due diligence, man. You couldn’t foresee the 2008 economic crash when you bought your home?

…I have gone to Lakewood Park every three years for 15 years and gotten mine reduced every time.

What did you tell them?

My goodness, how is it reasonable to assess an 85-year-old thousands of dollars just because they happen to own a house they no longer live in, when they are also paying for the one they can afford? Beats me....

I don’t know anyone that likes to pay taxes, but do anyway, and many would pay more for a good plan for the common good. There are probably roads in other parts of the country that you haven’t driven on that were paid for out of your federal taxes. Do you want a rebate for that?

Nonetheless, anyone with kids could live out there and borrow the money to send them to an East Coast boarding school or Western Reserve or Hathaway Brown or anywhere on earth and repay the loan with the money saved in property taxes over a couple decades or less.

Our kids are grown, but it only would have cost us about the equivalent of 25 years of property taxes to board and educate one of our kids at Western Reserve Academy. Not a bad deal, and a great payoff versus paying zero property taxes. In fact, if I had sent all five of our kids, it would have only cost us the equivalent of about 125 years of our current property taxes. That sounds attainable by just about anybody in Lakewood. Good plan.

Stephen you have pilloried Bill...

Bill has entered the public arena in his pursuit of elected office. I have the right and duty to investigate his positions. His politics and world-view differ greatly from mine. I am doing my due diligence.

If I recount his remarks correctly, he is opposed to increased property taxes, feeling that Lakewood property owners already provide enough and that voters presumably won’t approve more if asked. And apparently (and I’m kind of extrapolating) he also thinks that the other revenue sources (state, stimulus) are also tapped out. Oh and that dropping incomes and property values will further erode LCSD revenue sources. So tell us please, how would you close the huge budget gap? Specifically. Please….

You are "extrapolating". You, Bill, and I do not know what is going to happen.

For those that consider the failure of public institutions to be a success, a reduction in taxes to public schools that are already being squeezed by the US and Ohio governments might be a solution. What the heck? Just cut them off! More toward the truth though, there may be any number of combinations of approaches to the economic uncertainty ahead, as opposed to just Bill’s. (By the way, the nonsense about greater productivity by teachers is just funny, unless Bill can actually convince teachers to talk about 50% faster.)

I’m not convinced that Bill or you care about the future of our schools, other than the impact on your property taxes. Bill has a history of disdain for public employees and public institutions.

Lakewood has been supportive of their schools, even in tough times. Not sure they want to stop now in the face of economic pressures.

The apparent eroding of property values that you speak of may only be the tip of the iceberg if we stop supporting our public schools.

Also, “specifically”, I am not a candidate.


Steve

.

[ryan costa]

the biggest public works projects in America have been the highways and transportation and electrical infrastructure. plus 50 years or more of digital I.T. subsidies and contracts.

So...the idea of unrestricted movement of capital was largely established - in theory - as a good idea when it was physically and logistically very difficult to move capital.


So...the big boys have unprecedented power for lobbying for tax abatements and enormous additional subsidies.

States need laws making it illegal for their counties, cities, etc to offer special tax abatements to any commercial enterprise. our nation needs a law making it illegal for states to offer special tax abatements to any multi-state commercial enterprise.

[Bill Call]

there may be any number of combinations of approaches to the economic uncertainty ahead, as opposed to just Bill’s. (By the way, the nonsense about greater productivity by teachers is just funny, unless Bill can actually convince teachers to talk about 50% faster.)

I’m not convinced that Bill or you care about the future of our schools, other than the impact on your property taxes. Bill has a history of disdain for public employees and public institutions.

Last things first. I do not have a disdain for public employees. It's a charge made by people opposed to common sense reforms in public employee pay and benefits.

The proposal: An 8 hour day properly supervised and properly supported:

The response: You must hate teachers!

The proposal: Standards based education.

The response: You must hate teachers!

The proposal: Public employees pay 25% of the health insurance premium and that the plan have reasonable co-pays and deductibles.

The response: You must hate teachers!

The proposal: That public employee pensions do not consume so much of the budget that ALL other duties of government remain underfunded.

The response: You must hate teachers!

The proposal: Sick leave be replaced with a short and long term disability policy with an option to make up lost days.

The response: You must hate teachers!

The proposal: Test teacher competence and pay for performance!

The response: You must hate teachers!

The proposal: Make teachers more productive where productivity is defined as the number hours spent teaching.

The response: You must hate teachers.

Screaming you must hate teachers to every proposal for reform is not a serious aurgument. It's the adult equivalent to holding your breath until you turn blue.

I can hear the response now: You must hate teachers!

[Gary Rice]

Hi Bill,

It's me again.

I for one have NEVER thought or said that you hate teachers, even though you and I have sparred about public employee unions many times here, have we not?

For a fact, I actually respect you, and your willingness to post your personal views here on election day says much about your principles and strength of character.

Now, please let me tell you a little about my own principles and strength of character:

The concern that I would have with your positions, as I see them, (and please correct me if my assumptions are wrong here) is not so much with the particular positions that you take, but rather your apparent desire to want to be able to implement those policies unilaterally to employees? You seem to feel, if I am correct here, that a school board should be able to effect these changes without substantial employee involvement in the decision-making process?

The history of American public education is such that teachers had all of the responsibility, and absolutely no say in what would be taught, how much they would be paid, how long their day was, and for that matter, whether they could even date or be married. Even their clothing styles, in and out of school, were closely regulated. They could be fired for any reason and at any time.

Gradually, teachers also ran into situations where the quest for knowledge and policies collided. Beginning with the Scopes trial and the evolution vs. the Bible discussion, the question of academic freedom of inquiry loomed large in the modern world.

There also came a need to assure due process protection in the cases of teachers who engaged in legitimate controversial topics for learning's sake. There came a need to protect teachers against arbitrary and capricious termination for political reasons. There came a need to limit student classroom hours, just as there came the need to limit child labor, and long hours in sweatshops.

There also needed to be some kind of a balance put in place for relatively low-salaried teachers in the areas of medical care and retirement, as they had little opportunity to otherwise save much of their few extra pennies.

For all of these reasons, teacher's unions came along.

At first, the unions were met by bitter and at times violent resistance. It was not until our lifetimes that collective bargaining for public employees in Ohio became a reality. That did not, however, mean that strikes and labor actions did not exist prior to that protection. In fact there were a number of very serious labor disputes back then.

Many of us remember a VERY bitter and sometimes even violent Lakewood teacher's strike in the days before striking was technically "legal", but that certainly did not stop the strike from happening.

In fact, after the collective bargaining law passed, striking actually went down dramatically to the point where it is a relatively rare occurrence these days.

No Bill, I think that you and I, though opponents many times, may understand each other very well.

It's not that you hate teachers.

As far as I can tell, it's simply a question of how much negotiating strength that you want to allow them to have? If I am mistaken, please feel free to correct my assumptions here.

At the last, in any case, this is really not a question for you and I to answer here, but for the voters of Ohio today.

All just my own thoughts and opinions, and I may be wrong here...

Back to the banjo...