Are Property Taxes Becoming Confiscatory?

[Bill Call]

When your property tax payment exceed your interest payment are you paying taxes or living as an indentured servant?

[Grace O'Malley]

When you are paying interest you are living as an indentured servant to the bankers.

[stephen davis]

When your property tax payment exceed your interest payment are you paying taxes or living as an indentured servant?

Bill,

Looks like interest rates (And probably, although not on the chart, property appreciation.) were surging well ahead of property taxes, at least before the crash.

The nature of your post implies that you will not be in favor of school levies if elected to the school board.

I will not vote for you as a candidate for that position.

Steve

.

[Tim Liston]

Stephen….

Nowhere in Bill’s post did I read anything about school levies. If you want to unfairly extrapolate anything from Bill’s post, then you should at least conclude, fairly or unfairly, that Bill is opposed to using PROPERTY TAXES to fund the schools, which is of course the same conclusion that the Ohio Supreme Court has reached on at least three occasions.

I forget which other (nearby?) state it was that reached the same conclusion. When their legislature failed to change the way schools were funded, their Supreme Court threatened to jail all the legislators for failure to follow a court order. That is what is needed here in Ohio. Judges with balls. Property taxes are confiscatory and property taxation is the wrong way to fund government schools.

Homes here in Lakewood are worthless, particularly if you do not have children attending school. The value of the “perpetuity” (the value of your ongoing future property tax obligations) far exceeds the value of your house. For the last three years or so I have been trying to convince my wife to get the heck out of here. Lately, she has been listening to me in months other than in January and July. In the 15 years I have been here the assessed value of my home has increased 20% and my property taxes have doubled. I hope to be gone when my youngest graduates from high school, June of 2013.

Bill I have already voted for you and so has my wife. We need people in government who understand that there is a limit to what people can and should pay. Thank you.

[Grace O'Malley]

Good luck finding a place to live where you don't pay property tax and where that tax hasn't gone up roughly the same percentage in the same time period you're complaining about here in Lakewood.

[Tim Liston]

“Good luck finding a place to live where you don't pay property tax….”

Grace I never said I could. Please don’t put words in my mouth. Stephen did that to Bill, don't do that to me. And I am not stupid, I am well aware that there are property taxes almost everywhere. Unfortunately some are obscenely high, like here in Lakewood.

“….and where that tax hasn't gone up roughly the same percentage in the same time period you're complaining about here in Lakewood.”

Grace neither you or I can research this but my guess is that there are very few communities that have raised their property taxes 100% on homes that have increased only 20% in value. Lakewood took 15 years to do that. Sort of like how you boil a frog (clicky), but there are occasional folks who do notice, no matter how gradual the change. Though if I recall correctly a substantial increase took place around eight years ago in a stealth April school levy.

Had I known my property taxes would double on my home that has increased so little in value, I would have never moved here.

Have you ever noticed that there are no yard signs that encourage folks to vote FOR a school levy? Which is presumably a noble cause? That’s because levy supporters don’t want people to know that’s it’s even on the ballot. Better to go stealth because they know most folks would be opposed….

My mom still owns a home on 2.5 acres on the lake between Huron and Vermilion. Nice property. Unfortunately due to her failing health she does not live there anymore. The property is valued for assessment purposes at almost twice what mine is here in Lakewood and the property taxes are half of what I pay now. Which is to say her property taxes are 25% of what ours are here in Lakewood. And she has never challenged those taxes, while I have gone to Lakewood Park every three years for 15 years and gotten mine reduced every time. Who know what my property taxes would be otherwise.

My goodness, how is it reasonable to assess an 85-year-old thousands of dollars just because they happen to own a house they no longer live in, when they are also paying for the one they can afford? Beats me....

Nonetheless, anyone with kids could live out there and borrow the money to send them to an East Coast boarding school or Western Reserve or Hathaway Brown or anywhere on earth and repay the loan with the money saved in property taxes over a couple decades or less. Or just send them to the local government school for free and retire really early (like government teachers do ). A one-size-fits-all education is pretty much free no matter where you live.

Property taxes are ridiculous, especially as a means for funding government schools. My neighbors to the south are pushing 90 and still have to pay them. Illegally, according to the pussies in the Ohio Supreme Court. Honestly, why rule on something unless you want that ruling to be enforced?

[stephen davis]

“Good luck finding a place to live where you don't pay property tax….”

Grace I never said I could. Please don’t put words in my mouth. Stephen did that to Bill, don't do that to me. And I am not stupid, I am well aware that there are property taxes almost everywhere. Unfortunately some are obscenely high, like here in Lakewood.

“….and where that tax hasn't gone up roughly the same percentage in the same time period you're complaining about here in Lakewood.”

Grace neither you or I can research this but my guess is that there are very few communities that have raised their property taxes 100% on homes that have increased only 20% in value. Lakewood took 15 years to do that. Sort of like how you boil a frog (clicky), but there are occasional folks who do notice, no matter how gradual the change. Though if I recall correctly a substantial increase took place around eight years ago in a stealth April school levy.

Had I known my property taxes would double on my home that has increased so little in value, I would have never moved here.

Have you ever noticed that there are no yard signs that encourage folks to vote FOR a school levy? Which is presumably a noble cause? That’s because levy supporters don’t want people to know that’s it’s even on the ballot. Better to go stealth because they know most folks would be opposed….

My mom still owns a home on 2.5 acres on the lake between Huron and Vermilion. Nice property. Unfortunately due to her failing health she does not live there anymore. The property is valued for assessment purposes at almost twice what mine is here in Lakewood and the property taxes are half of what I pay now. Which is to say her property taxes are 25% of what ours are here in Lakewood. And she has never challenged those taxes, while I have gone to Lakewood Park every three years for 15 years and gotten mine reduced every time. Who know what my property taxes would be otherwise.

My goodness, how is it reasonable to assess an 85-year-old thousands of dollars just because they happen to own a house they no longer live in, when they are also paying for the one they can afford? Beats me....

Nonetheless, anyone with kids could live out there and borrow the money to send them to an East Coast boarding school or Western Reserve or Hathaway Brown or anywhere on earth and repay the loan with the money saved in property taxes over a couple decades or less. Or just send them to the local government school for free and retire really early (like government teachers do ). A one-size-fits-all education is pretty much free no matter where you live.

Property taxes are ridiculous, especially as a means for funding government schools. My neighbors to the south are pushing 90 and still have to pay them. Illegally, according to the pussies in the Ohio Supreme Court. Honestly, why rule on something unless you want that ruling to be enforced?

So, is this a snapshot of a Bill Call for School Board supporter? Is the message, "I hate the whole notion of public education, and keep my taxes as low as possible until I can get the hell out of this town"?

.

[Mike Coleman]

Grace neither you or I can research this but my guess is that there are very few communities that have raised their property taxes 100% on homes that have increased only 20% in value.

Let's look at an example of someone who lives in a district that raises their taxes 50% on homes that have increased 50% in value v. someone whose taxes double on homes that raise 20%?


DISTRICT A: A $100,000 home is now a $150,000 home going from a 2% rate to a 3% rate: $2,000 to $4,500.

DISTRICT B: A $100,000 home now a $120,000 home going from a 2% rate to a 4% rate: $2,000 to $4,800.

I think this says a lot about how people feel about taxes these days.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/855 ... hools.html



So the resident of District A not only saves $300 a year to use on things like gas, etc., and also owns a faster appreciating asset that can be passed on to children, grandchildren, etc. As you can see a person who lives in a taxing district whose taxes increase at a slower rate saves thousands of dollars over the course of a 30-year loan.

[Roy Pitchford]

...as Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "Strike for the jugular. Reduce taxes and spending. Keep government poor, and remain free."

Ronald Reagan, Encroaching Control speech, 1961

[Bill Call]

The nature of your post implies that you will not be in favor of school levies if elected to the school board.

I will not vote for you as a candidate for that position.

Steve

.[/quote]

In my written responses to questions about school finances asked by the PTA, League of Women Voters, The Chamber of Commerce, The Sun Post and The Plain Dealer I said:

We need to raise taxes and cut wages and benefits.

What I meant by that is that we need to

raise taxes and
cut wages and benefits.

During the discussions sponsored by the PTA and the League of Women Voters and the Lakewood Chamber of Commerce I concluded my remarks by saying:

We need to:

Raise taxes and
cut wages and benefits.

My robo call which is going out to 1,800 homes states in part: We cannot solve Lakewood Schools $16 million deficit by tax increases alone.

That is as clear as I know how to make it.

Has any other candidate said we need to raise taxes? If so I never heard them say so. Does that mean they are not in favor of raising taxes?
Does it mean they are in favor of raising taxes but won't admit it?

Will you be voting for someone who has remained silent on the issue?

The graveyard of failed campaigns is paved with the truth.

[stephen davis]

We need to raise taxes and cut wages and benefits.

What I meant by that is that we need to

raise taxes and
cut wages and benefits.

Bill,

There will obviously have to be cuts somewhere.

Where do you stand on Issue 2?

Do you know any teachers?


Steve

.

[Bill Call]

Bill I have already voted for you and so has my wife. We need people in government who understand that there is a limit to what people can and should pay. Thank you.

Thanks for the support.

Most people in government don't think there is a limit to what people can pay.

At a recent school board meeting it was revealed that health insurance premiums would be increasing 11% this year (+$800,000), 15% next year (+$1,320,000) and 15% the following year (+$1,518,000). In a few years the system will be paying nearly $4 million more for hospitalization than it did a year ago. The recent contract included step raises and cost of living raises and other raises that will increase cost by another $3 million per year.

The typical response is “Let’s raise property taxes”. I think we have reached a natural limit to that line of thinking.

I recently talked to women who own a small building in Lakewood. Her property taxes now consume 30% of the rent when all units are rented and everyone pays their rent. Her assessed value is far above the true economic value and far above its market value. What happens when the tax value is reduced to its true value and property taxes are 10% of the value and 50% of the rent?

If I’m elected to the school board I intend to be a strong voice for the people of Lakewood. We need to get more productivity from the employees and those employees are going to have to accept real cuts in pay and benefits.

[stephen davis]

If I’m elected to the school board I intend to be a strong voice for the people of Lakewood. We need to get more productivity from the employees and those employees are going to have to accept real cuts in pay and benefits.

People, you heard it here!

.

[Gary Rice]

With the Lakewood Schools current "Excellent" rating, and with the many successful educational and school support programs presently underway in our schools, there would be much evidence to suggest that both the school administration and the employees are already extremely productive people, with respect to the care and education of Lakewood's public school children.

As retired teachers and Lakewood Schools volunteers, Dad and I have seen numerous examples of excellence already transpiring in our schools. We frankly already think that Lakewood Schools ARE, well, excellent!

None of this, it would appear, is good enough for some people who apparently feel that public employees are vastly overpaid for their services. Under the smokescreen of making schools "even better", the real agenda seems to me, to turn those schools back into 19th century sweatshops for both staff and students- with long hours, relatively little pay or benefits determined from the "top down" in a very arbitrary fashion, and with virtually no civil rights or free expression for either the staff or the students. So often these kinds of people have a stark, "sky is falling" negative view of the world, and hope that the rest of us will get around to sharing that negativity. So often, they want more uniformity, as well as a lock-step, dreary academic-only curriculum utterly devoid of trade or arts education. In this drive for Utopian uniformity, children become little more than numbers on a statistical abstract. Leadership and personal initiative are cast aside for "teamwork"and improved group test results, turning students into little more than virtual ants for the future American ant farm.

Worse still, some have gone even farther and have called for the dismantling and privatization of American Education. Some feel that the time has come to end public schools.

I emphatically do not share that vision. American academic freedom, initiative, and drive has led the world in the past, but it is in serious danger nowadays. We are in a national battle for the future of public education here, and we'd better know well how some people think before we elect them to office. Issue 2, concerning the possible repeal of Senate Bill 5, is at the epicenter of the discussion, because it concerns how Ohio will treat public employees in the workplace. If Issue 2 passes, public employees will lose much "say" in the workplace, and a great deal of that "say" has to do with better working conditions. Bear in mind that negotiating for better working conditions means precisely that. Better working conditions implicitly mean better schools, fire stations, police stations, school cafeterias...the list goes on and on...but I digress. True, this may cost money at times, but I would argue that the results are certainly worth the expense.

I would encourage anyone to closely scrutinize the records of candidates.

With respect to Mr. Call's thoughts and positions for example, his previous postings on this 'Deck are out there for all to see. Though I agree with him only rarely, I at least deeply appreciate his willingness to engage others here.

I for one, care not one twit for Mr. Call's opinion concerning teachers unions, or what Mr. Call's position might be on Issue 2. As an American, his personal opinions are his own. While I certainly would ideally like him to recognize and support teachers unions, that too, would not be a deciding factor as to whether or not he would deserve my vote. I can certainly live with people in office who disagree with me.

The one thing that I WOULD expect from Mr. Call, or from any candidate, would be for them to respect the law. If, in November, Issue 2 succeeds in dismantling collective bargaining rights, at that point, it would appear that Mr. Call would be in a position to see some of his ideas concerning Board-driven salaries and benefit reductions through. If, however, Issue 2 fails, I would expect that he, or any Board member, would support the laws concerning collective bargaining as they presently stand.

Just as a general observation here, I have seen Board members in other districts who were highly agenda-minded and confrontational in their approach to educational matters. In my opinion, one district that experienced that situation was nearly destroyed, and still has not recovered.

We therefore need to carefully choose our leadership.

Mr. Call certainly needs to be thanked and appreciated for his willingness to serve on the School Board. At the same time, as with any candidate, his words and positions deserve very close scrutiny. I do believe him to be essentially correct with respect to the financial issues facing our schools. These are not easy questions to address, but that's why good leadership, combined with the ability to compromise, and to listen to new ideas are always essential qualities for one aspiring to such a position as he is. The public may well decide that Mr. Call is suited for the Board during these times. That's for them to decide.

All just my opinion here, and I will not be publicly endorsing a candidate, by the way. Who gets elected will be for the citizens to decide.

All just my personal opinions here, of course...

Back to the banjo...

[marklingm]

If I’m elected to the school board I intend to be a strong voice for the people of Lakewood. We need to get more productivity from the employees and those employees are going to have to accept real cuts in pay and benefits.

People, you heard it here!

Steve,

I guess I’m missing your point. Bill Call is simply letting the “People” hear his thoughts and positions right here, on the Deck.

And, as Gary said:

With respect to Mr. Call's thoughts and positions for example, his previous postings on this 'Deck are out there for all to see. Though I agree with him only rarely, I at least deeply appreciate his willingness to engage others here.

I for one, care not one twit for Mr. Call's opinion concerning teachers unions, or what Mr. Call's position might be on Issue 2. As an American, his personal opinions are his own. While I certainly would ideally like him to recognize and support teachers unions, that too, would not be a deciding factor as to whether or not he would deserve my vote. I can certainly live with people in office who disagree with me.

Matt