Bill - Partial birth abortions are only permitted in life and death situations. They are not a regular abortion option.
Please make sure your facts are correct.
Infanticide - The New Abortion Right
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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sharon kinsella
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Valerie Molinski
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Re: Infanticide - The New Abortion Right
Bill Call wrote:Valerie Molinski wrote:
If a women kills a child under the age of one the "crime" would be punishable by two years in prison if the child was killed because the women was "depressed".
It is unclear whether or not the law would apply to women who kill someone else's child. It is also unclear if the law should be expanded to include men. Don't men get depressed? And anyway, if partial birth abortion is ok why not infanticide? How is partial birth abortion different than infanticide?
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Texas- ... e-Law.html
Do you just post links expecting others not to click on them? The article you reference is referred to post partum depression defenses... which are consistently kicked from guilty/prison sentences to innocent/insanity defenses. This bill is to further define that issue.
I still don't get how it is related to partial birth abortion, which, sharon correctly stated that they are not available unless in special cases where a pregnant mother's life is in distress.
And your comment about.. 'don't men get depressed?' Ignorant about post-partum depression which is a very real disorder. Next, you're going to offer to us that bipolar or schizophrenics are merely 'faking it' for the attention.
And still not getting where Obama's health policies play into this either. Again, ridiculous and shameful. Pro Choice advocates have nothing to do with any of what you posted either. You're all over the map and make no logical argument here about... well, anything.
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dl meckes
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Lynn Farris
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Bill, do you really believe any of this or are you trying to get people excited? My kids used to tell what we called "lie-jokes" whoppers to see if they could get a rise out of me. They usually did and then would roll on the floor laughing their butts off. I suspect that is the same behavoir. 
There are 3 questions here I think all disguised as infantcide.
1) Post partum depression. It is a real condition and affects some women to a psychotic extent. No one thinks a mother should be excused for killing her baby - but what does society gain from locking up someone who should be in a hospital. How can you punish a mother for an atrocious act more than she will punish herself the rest of her life? More research needs to be done for this medical issue. In the olden days new mothers were surrounded by an extended family that she could count on. Now days many mothers are alone and when the depression/psychosis is overwhelming who knows what will happen?
2) National Health Care. Well first Obama isn't really suggesting National health care - but a way to help people purchase affordable health care and people with pre-existing conditions get covered. Have you spent any time in countries with National Health Care? They have a lower infant death rate than in the U.S. because poor people can afford pre-natal care. I don't understand why anyone would think that people shouldn't be allowed to buy inexpensive health care or people that were let go of jobs in this economy and has a health problem shouldn't be able to get health care. Don't give me that Cobra garbage - that only applies to large companies and then the employee still may have a huge premium.
3) Late Term abortions are only in emergencies. I'm not going to debate abortion. No one I have ever met is for abortion and no one I have ever met is for late term abortion. But many people feel that this is a decision for the woman, her family and her physician - not a bunch of people in D.C. I have no desire to tell a woman that she must die when she can prevent it? Horrible, painful decision and I am not going to judge anyone that makes either decision.
There are 3 questions here I think all disguised as infantcide.
1) Post partum depression. It is a real condition and affects some women to a psychotic extent. No one thinks a mother should be excused for killing her baby - but what does society gain from locking up someone who should be in a hospital. How can you punish a mother for an atrocious act more than she will punish herself the rest of her life? More research needs to be done for this medical issue. In the olden days new mothers were surrounded by an extended family that she could count on. Now days many mothers are alone and when the depression/psychosis is overwhelming who knows what will happen?
2) National Health Care. Well first Obama isn't really suggesting National health care - but a way to help people purchase affordable health care and people with pre-existing conditions get covered. Have you spent any time in countries with National Health Care? They have a lower infant death rate than in the U.S. because poor people can afford pre-natal care. I don't understand why anyone would think that people shouldn't be allowed to buy inexpensive health care or people that were let go of jobs in this economy and has a health problem shouldn't be able to get health care. Don't give me that Cobra garbage - that only applies to large companies and then the employee still may have a huge premium.
3) Late Term abortions are only in emergencies. I'm not going to debate abortion. No one I have ever met is for abortion and no one I have ever met is for late term abortion. But many people feel that this is a decision for the woman, her family and her physician - not a bunch of people in D.C. I have no desire to tell a woman that she must die when she can prevent it? Horrible, painful decision and I am not going to judge anyone that makes either decision.
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." ~ George Carlin
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Tim Liston
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Lynn Farris
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Okay Tim you are right. Health care the way we run it in this country is expensive.
But your a business person, as am I. Do you offer better health care for your employees than you do for yourself and your family? We don't. It is the same - no better, no worse.
Then why should we pay for health care for our government workers and not be allowed to buy into the same program. I know Strickland stood on principal and refused to take it until the people that voted him could have the same deal. But few of our elected officials do. There are some economies of scale in buying health care. The government buys it at a far less rate for their employees that you or I do.
Obama isn't talking single payer health care. He is doing some relatively minor reforms to reduce the costs and allows people to buy into some system at least some minimal level and not allow people to be refused for pre-existing conditions.
Don't you think it is really jumping the shark to link that to infantcide?
But your a business person, as am I. Do you offer better health care for your employees than you do for yourself and your family? We don't. It is the same - no better, no worse.
Then why should we pay for health care for our government workers and not be allowed to buy into the same program. I know Strickland stood on principal and refused to take it until the people that voted him could have the same deal. But few of our elected officials do. There are some economies of scale in buying health care. The government buys it at a far less rate for their employees that you or I do.
Obama isn't talking single payer health care. He is doing some relatively minor reforms to reduce the costs and allows people to buy into some system at least some minimal level and not allow people to be refused for pre-existing conditions.
Don't you think it is really jumping the shark to link that to infantcide?
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." ~ George Carlin
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ryan costa
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good ol' days
in the small government good ol' days it was much easier for an American to get away with accidently rolling over a baby and smothering it when they slept. some sources say that was a common solution to too many mouths to feed. These were small government solutions. tolerance for mortality. low standards. few laws. infrequently enforced laws.
"Is this flummery” — Archie Goodwin
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Tim Liston
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I have never met Bill but would like to someday. Because there is one undercurrent in his posts that is undeniably true, and it doesn't matter whether you are red, blue or purple. Whenever government gets into dictating policy, there are always unintended consequences, and government ALWAYS fails to either understand them, or they choose to ignore them.
According to this wikipedia link, unintended consequences may have caused WW2.You down with that?
I bet Bill votes Libertarian, just like me, always. I stand in line for an hour to vote for someone who does not stand a chance in today's rigged political process. Dems and Reps, you can't put a dime between them and if you want change you can't vote for either one. Face it.
Lynn I have no idea what Obama's health care policies are and neither do you, because he hasn't announced them yet. At least not for real. All we have heard is the blather that helped get him elected. “Health care for everyone, blah, blah, blah...â€
According to this wikipedia link, unintended consequences may have caused WW2.You down with that?
I bet Bill votes Libertarian, just like me, always. I stand in line for an hour to vote for someone who does not stand a chance in today's rigged political process. Dems and Reps, you can't put a dime between them and if you want change you can't vote for either one. Face it.
Lynn I have no idea what Obama's health care policies are and neither do you, because he hasn't announced them yet. At least not for real. All we have heard is the blather that helped get him elected. “Health care for everyone, blah, blah, blah...â€
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Bill Call
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f
Tim Liston wrote:Another unintended consequence that Bill and I have brought up. You can violate the rule of law and let others take cuts before Chrysler secured creditors, and eff those people who put their hard-earned money down for a few percent per year. And you will get away with it. But only this time. Going forward, nobody in their right mind will lend money to unionized businesses anymore. Not to autos, not airlines, not steel. Good luck to them operating on a cash basis. Say goodbye to those industries, at least here in the good ol' US of A....
This post is really about our nations decent into despotism.
In a weak moment I thought there might be someone in the courts, legal profession, in the hall’s of congress or the media to actively speak out against the villainy of the Chrysler bankruptcy. I should have known better.
People who should know better quietly acquiesce to government by gangsterism. They turn away and pretend it’s not happening. I guess they find solace in their pretendings.
Some say Partial birth abortion is a rare procedure performed in rare circumstances to save the life of a mother. That is not true. It was a common procedure performed tens of thousands of times on healthy infants because it was “easierâ€
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Valerie Molinski
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Re: f
[quote="Bill Call"][quote="Tim Liston"]
This post is really about our nations decent into despotism.
In a weak moment I thought there might be someone in the courts, legal profession, in the hall’s of congress or the media to actively speak out against the villainy of the Chrysler bankruptcy. I should have known better.
People who should know better quietly acquiesce to government by gangsterism. They turn away and pretend it’s not happening. I guess they find solace in their pretendings.
Some say Partial birth abortion is a rare procedure performed in rare circumstances to save the life of a mother. That is not true. It was a common procedure performed tens of thousands of times on healthy infants because it was “easierâ€
This post is really about our nations decent into despotism.
In a weak moment I thought there might be someone in the courts, legal profession, in the hall’s of congress or the media to actively speak out against the villainy of the Chrysler bankruptcy. I should have known better.
People who should know better quietly acquiesce to government by gangsterism. They turn away and pretend it’s not happening. I guess they find solace in their pretendings.
Some say Partial birth abortion is a rare procedure performed in rare circumstances to save the life of a mother. That is not true. It was a common procedure performed tens of thousands of times on healthy infants because it was “easierâ€
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Lynn Farris
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- Location: Lakewood, Ohio
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Tim,
I have had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Call and he is an intelligent, charming gentleman. On many issues we agree, on some we don't. This is one where we dont.
However, I think he will agree with us, that it isn't fair that we pay for health care for our "employees" the goverment workers that we can't get. In fact, I saw a recent article by Roldo Bartimole entitled After 42 years of free health care, George Voinovich says No to us. There are two fair alternatives I see, either make government workers pay for their own health care or allow the rest of the population to buy into the program. Maybe if our Senators and Congressmen knew how hard it was to buy insurance on the open market if they had pre-existing conditions or how expensive it was, we would have reform. We wouldn't need a separate VA health care system if we treated everyone fairly. Right now veterans that don't live near a VA can't really get health care and they can't figure out what to do. It is a disgrace - but make health care available for everyone solves all the problems.
By the way, this isn't the true free market. The most powerful union in the world the AMA controls the supply of doctors very tightly. Dr. Ron Paul talked about how we could have more of a free market by allowing more doctors to graduate. Supply and demand would bring down the price. I know many amazing students who would be good doctors that were turned down to medical school The insurance industries are also a powerful lobbying agency, not to speak of the lobbying by the pharmaceutical industry.
You are right Tim, I don't know all the details of the plan that will eventually come out of the Obama administration, but I do know the details of the health care system that he campaigned on. That was a very moderate approach that allowed a great deal of choice. It did require health care for children. When your child is sitting in school next to another child, you want them to have health care so they aren't spreading disease to your child. It also allowed people to buy into the same health care that government officials had, without excluding people that had pre-existing conditions, or were overweight for example.
Everyone complains about our industries not being able to compete with equivalent first world industries. Other first world countries provide National Health care. A car made in Windsor Canada costs 2,000 less becuase of health care costs. Health care costs are making our businesses less competitive.
And why is it that we did not allow our government to negotiate better prices for drugs with the pharmecutical companies? Canada gets the drugs for far less. And why can't we buy these cheaper drugs from Canada or other countries? Is big brother protecting our health or their the pharmaceutical industries profits?
There are unintended consequenses of what we do, some good and some bad. However if we look at all the other Westernized first world countries that have national health care, they may talk about some amazing advances in the U.S., but no one wants to pay what we are paying for health care. No one wants to be turned down for health care because they have a pre-existing condition. No one in any of these countries wants our system.
I have had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Call and he is an intelligent, charming gentleman. On many issues we agree, on some we don't. This is one where we dont.
However, I think he will agree with us, that it isn't fair that we pay for health care for our "employees" the goverment workers that we can't get. In fact, I saw a recent article by Roldo Bartimole entitled After 42 years of free health care, George Voinovich says No to us. There are two fair alternatives I see, either make government workers pay for their own health care or allow the rest of the population to buy into the program. Maybe if our Senators and Congressmen knew how hard it was to buy insurance on the open market if they had pre-existing conditions or how expensive it was, we would have reform. We wouldn't need a separate VA health care system if we treated everyone fairly. Right now veterans that don't live near a VA can't really get health care and they can't figure out what to do. It is a disgrace - but make health care available for everyone solves all the problems.
By the way, this isn't the true free market. The most powerful union in the world the AMA controls the supply of doctors very tightly. Dr. Ron Paul talked about how we could have more of a free market by allowing more doctors to graduate. Supply and demand would bring down the price. I know many amazing students who would be good doctors that were turned down to medical school The insurance industries are also a powerful lobbying agency, not to speak of the lobbying by the pharmaceutical industry.
You are right Tim, I don't know all the details of the plan that will eventually come out of the Obama administration, but I do know the details of the health care system that he campaigned on. That was a very moderate approach that allowed a great deal of choice. It did require health care for children. When your child is sitting in school next to another child, you want them to have health care so they aren't spreading disease to your child. It also allowed people to buy into the same health care that government officials had, without excluding people that had pre-existing conditions, or were overweight for example.
Everyone complains about our industries not being able to compete with equivalent first world industries. Other first world countries provide National Health care. A car made in Windsor Canada costs 2,000 less becuase of health care costs. Health care costs are making our businesses less competitive.
And why is it that we did not allow our government to negotiate better prices for drugs with the pharmecutical companies? Canada gets the drugs for far less. And why can't we buy these cheaper drugs from Canada or other countries? Is big brother protecting our health or their the pharmaceutical industries profits?
There are unintended consequenses of what we do, some good and some bad. However if we look at all the other Westernized first world countries that have national health care, they may talk about some amazing advances in the U.S., but no one wants to pay what we are paying for health care. No one wants to be turned down for health care because they have a pre-existing condition. No one in any of these countries wants our system.
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." ~ George Carlin
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ryan costa
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- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:31 pm
swell
I stumbled across a quote from the Book of Revelations recently.
granted, it was quoted by Hunter S Thompason in Generation of Swine...
What it means I don't likely know. It seems to endorse the idea that abortion is tolerable if the child is conceived out of wedlock. I mean, that it is less drastic than killing the kids after they were born.
It is from the Book of Revelations! that is the favorite book of the Left Behind authors.
Our hero thomas jefferson dismissed the Book of Revelations as the work folks who were probably batsheet crazy. In Jefferson's day the services of remedies for women in innoble circumstances were advertised in the backs of newspapers. it did not seem to make it to the legislature or supreme court.
the founding fathers were not Catholic. This must mean...they were against Catholicism.
21I gave her time to repent, but she refused to repent of her immorality. Look! I am going to strike her with illness. Those who commit adultery with her will also suffer greatly, unless they repent from acting like her. I will strike her children dead.
granted, it was quoted by Hunter S Thompason in Generation of Swine...
What it means I don't likely know. It seems to endorse the idea that abortion is tolerable if the child is conceived out of wedlock. I mean, that it is less drastic than killing the kids after they were born.
It is from the Book of Revelations! that is the favorite book of the Left Behind authors.
Our hero thomas jefferson dismissed the Book of Revelations as the work folks who were probably batsheet crazy. In Jefferson's day the services of remedies for women in innoble circumstances were advertised in the backs of newspapers. it did not seem to make it to the legislature or supreme court.
the founding fathers were not Catholic. This must mean...they were against Catholicism.
"Is this flummery” — Archie Goodwin