Legacy Red Herring

[Jim O'Bryan]

That was John F. thank was president, not Joe.

it was Joe Kennedy that helped Hitler not JFK

Right, so what the hell does that have to do with the USA putting Sadaam in power, then selling him weapons of mass destruction that he later used against his own people not the USA with our targeting help?

Joe Kennedy a private citizen, capitalist, accused war profiteer, and bootlegger, is like how with this? I mean that is not even like President Regan stealing weapons from the America military to sell to Iran, our enemy.

Two problems, one is a private citizen the other American Goverment.
Two, are you really proposing a tit-for-tat American policy. They did it so we can do it? They did it first, we can now. They did it 60 years ago, wahhhh leave me alone.

Can't we strive to be better.

Oh, that's right your word was

borborygmus

[Stephen Eisel]

That was John F. thank was president, not Joe.

it was Joe Kennedy that helped Hitler not JFK

Right, so what the hell does that have to do with the USA putting Sadaam in power, then selling him weapons of mass destruction that he later used against his own people not the USA with our targeting help?

Joe Kennedy a private citizen, capitalist, accused war profiteer, and bootlegger, is like how with this? I mean that is not even like President Regan stealing weapons from the America military to sell to Iran, our enemy.

Two problems, one is a private citizen the other American Goverment.
Two, are you really proposing a tit-for-tat American policy. They did it so we can do it? They did it first, we can now. They did it 60 years ago, wahhhh leave me alone.

Can't we strive to be better.

Oh, that's right your word was

borborygmus

The US did not put Saddam in power. The US did not supply Iraq with WMD's. Joe Kennedy was an ambassador for the US and had influence in government matters.

Hitler? I do not remember America putting Hitler in power, or selling him weapons of mass destruction.

Some Americans did finance Hitler... and helped to finance his war machine.

[Stephen Eisel]

borborygmus

another set of claws?

[Stephen Eisel]

JOB wrote:Right, so what the hell does that have to do with the USA putting Sadaam in power, then selling him weapons of mass destruction that he later used against his own people not the USA with our targeting help?

[quote]1980, September 22. The armed forces of Iraq launch an invasion against Iran. The Iraqi army, trained and influenced by Soviet advisers, has organic chemical warfare units and possesses a wide variety of delivery systems. When neither side achieves dominance, the war quickly stalemates. To stop the human-wave attacks by the Iranians, Iraq employs home-produced chemical agents as a defensive measure against the ill-prepared Iranians.
The first reported use of chemical weapons is in November 1980 (probably CS). For the next several years, reports circulate of additional chemical attacks.

“During the war with Iran, I remember telling someone [that] Khomeini isn't the only person who talks to god. Saddam Hussein thinks he talks to god. He has a message--he has to lead Iraq, make it a model for the Arab countries and then attract the rest of the Arab countries and become the sole Arab leader of modern times.â€

[Stephen Eisel]

then selling him weapons of mass destruction that he later used against his own people

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/ja ... iantraynor

An appeal judge in The Hague has ordered the release of a Dutch businessman accused of supplying the chemicals to Saddam Hussein that enabled him to gas the Kurds.
The ruling is a setback for Dutch prosecutors seeking to bring their first case of involvement in genocide.

Frans van Anraat was arrested six weeks ago on suspicion of complicity in genocide. He is accused of supplying the chemicals that enabled the Iraqi dictator to make the mustard gas with which he killed and maimed thousands of Kurds in attacksin 1988. About 5,000 were killed in the town of Halabja alone.

Mr Van Anraat, 62, has never denied supplying the chemicals, but says he did not know what they were to be used for.

Officials and lawyers involved in the case say that the judge's decision reflects judicial reluctance to pursue such cases.

After a year-long investigation, the Dutch authorities arrested Mr Van Anraat early last month at his canal-side house in west Amsterdam.

US customs had Mr Van Anraat on their most wanted list for several years, and had issued an international arrest warrant for him alleging that he provided Saddam with 538 tonnes of a chemical solvent called thiodiglycol, or TDG, which is used in the textile industry and is also the main ingredient in the manufacture of mustard gas.

[ryan costa]

Germany was an industrial superpower that had conquered most of western Europe.

Conquered???? Italy and France????

Germany had an alliance with Italy. They conquered much of North Africa. Bohemia, Slovakia, norway, Belgium, denmark, the Netherlands, Poland, Hungary, Croatia, Greece, Serbia, Romania, etc.

America supplied both Britain and the Soviets with massive amounts of supplies, ships, vehicles, locomotives, etc to use against the Germans and Italians. This is something many people would consider an act of war. All the while America was quietly building up its own industrial capacity and technology before jumping head first into the war. The big debate was whether or not it would be against the Soviets or the Germans: but getting involved too early could have encouraged the Soviets and Germans to form an alliance.

Iraq may have slaughtered the kurds. but the kurds were people we didn't care about. and iraq did that during a period of alliance with the U.S. Poison gas is no worse than dropping napalm or bombs from air craft. We didn't go to war with Britain for slaughtering the Boers in south africa, or king leopold for slaughtering millions of Congo people.

My Bob Hope biography mentions 1930s Nazi Germany being the number one european export market for hollywood movies. it certainly wasn't a lack of cultural affinity that lead to war. Maybe all those german kids wanted to be like John Wayne too. Germany declared war on the United States shortly after Pearl Harbor. Germany had an alliance with the Japanese for some reason.

Does Ford still own Volvo Cars? How is Volvo Cars doing in Europe? are they on the brink of bankruptcy? How does the public there view anti-union sentiment? Volvo isn't german or japanese or american. It was swedish.

[Charlie Page]

Bottom line is that things need to change from the top to the bottom.

Stockholders need to become “activistâ€

[Stephen Eisel]

Iraq may have slaughtered the kurds. but the kurds were people we didn't care about. and iraq did that during a period of alliance with the U.S. Poison gas is no worse than dropping napalm or bombs from air craft. We didn't go to war with Britain for slaughtering the Boers in south africa, or king leopold for slaughtering millions of Congo people.

wtf are you smoking?

[Bill Call]

$2,000 a car in legacy costs per vehicle. Health, pension, etc.

America's non union auto industry is thriving and they provide family health coverage for $75 per month:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/174337

GM's North American operations were losing money even when they enjoyed record sales. You cannot operate a business with 100,000 people working and one million collecting pay and benefits.

GM's business outside of N. America is competative and makes money. Why? Because they don't have a UAW or an American congress to deal with.

GM has 7,000 dealers, Toyota has 1,500 (est.). Modified bankruptcy is the only solution for GM's problems. They have a lot of good products and a lot of good people. Without the burden of 3,000 page labor contracts and heavy congressional regulation the company will thrive.

If you really cared about all those jobs you support modified bankruptcy.

[Jim O'Bryan]

If you really cared about all those jobs you support modified bankruptcy.

Bill

This has been a fundamental difference between you and I for years. I believe a contract is not something to wiggle out of.

Here we are speaking of 2 contracts, one with workers and one with dealers.

Do GM have more dealers, sure, around longer, more brands, more styles. (Could be one of the problems.) However, why is longevity bad?

People, workers, dealers invested in GM, why do we just throw that away?

What makes this so unreal to me, is the $700 B - $1.5 Trillion just given to Wall Street.

I could call for a full restructuring of the industry, but all you are asking for is the back door out of contracts. That is just wrong.

Why have contracts?

.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Bill

Just curious.

Do you really think it is all just happen chance? That the banks got restocked with Trillions, one estimate is over 3, when you include what the Fed has pumped in answering to no one. Let's not forget, the Fed is banked owned and operated.

Just when a major chunk of American Industry, and for that matter America gets ready to go belly up and sell for pennies on the dollars.

You do not see the massive transfer of cash that is about to happen? You do not see the gap between the middle class and wealthy about to widen by miles? What amazes me, is that they borrowed the money from the middle class! Your grandchildren and their grandchildren? And no one even blinked or cared! The middle class, as upper middle class no longer really exists as they were deep in stocks, property, on investments.

Everything "they coveted" is now 1/3rd the price and falling quickly.

FWIW


.

[ryan costa]

The Republicans remaining in congress are being spiteful and reverting to reflex actions. They have a reflexive impulse to attack labor union gains.

However, over the last 40 to 20 years Union workers in heavy industry have made enough money to move to the suburbs or the sticks. They get fed up with urban decay, media reports on gangs, abortion, the middle east, etc. and they began voting Republican. Reagan swung a lot of them with his hollywood acting abilities.

As a reward for 20 odd years of loyalty, the Republicans in Congress are cutting taxes on the rich, bailing out wall street, and encouraging more outsourcing.

[Stephen Eisel]

The Republicans remaining in congress are being spiteful and reverting to reflex actions. They have a reflexive impulse to attack labor union gains.

or how about they know how to read a Balance Sheet or Income Statement??? just sayin

[ryan costa]

The Republicans remaining in congress are being spiteful and reverting to reflex actions. They have a reflexive impulse to attack labor union gains.

or how about they know how to read a Balance Sheet or Income Statement??? just sayin

persistent massive reaganomics deficits display they are unable to read a Balance Sheet or Income Statement.

[Stephen Eisel]

The Republicans remaining in congress are being spiteful and reverting to reflex actions. They have a reflexive impulse to attack labor union gains.

or how about they know how to read a Balance Sheet or Income Statement??? just sayin

persistent massive reaganomics deficits display they are unable to read a Balance Sheet or Income Statement.

that makes perfect sense