Nothing But Pure Ignorance

Ed Dickson · Post by **Ed Dickson** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:20 pm

Sorry Shawn, they would be killed. The Daisy Hill Puppy Farm doesn't exist. They wouldn't be sent somewhere else.

Any council person out there want to verify this for me? Or is that part of it something that hasn't been discussed yet?

Ed Dickson · Post by **Ed Dickson** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:22 pm

Also, did you really just compare owning chickens and goats in Lakewood to owning dogs?? Really?

Brad Hutchison · Post by **Brad Hutchison** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:34 pm

Ed is right. The dogs won't be sent elsewhere, Shawn, you know that. You also know that dogs are not livestock. I really believe that John Q. Househunter would visit Lakewood, see people everywhere walking dogs, note the Lakewood dog park, and never think twice about whether or not his family dog is banned because the reactionary municipal government failed to do any research, listen to residents or experts, or realize that what they were doing was neither righteous, popular, nor sensible, nor would it be effective at all in dealing with the perceived problem.

dl meckes · Post by **dl meckes** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:43 pm

Shawn Juris wrote:Most densely populated city between NYC and Chicago with a complaint ratio that seems far out of balance with the supposed number of registered dogs of this breed. It's a problem that needs a solution and if there are enough who are sympathetic to this kind of dog then they wouldn't be killed, they would just be sent somewhere that they are welcome.

There's a vast difference between chickens and goats and dogs. (From a previous post.)

Among other things, in this country, we don't eat dogs (I find both goat and chicken delicious...).

What magical place will family pets be sent to live out their days? How many people can take in somebody's pet forever?

When you have a mixed-breed dog, how can you be sure if it has any terrier blood in it? (Or Cana blood; can you tell the difference between all of the Mastiff-related breeds?) Who guesses what kind of dog is a pit?

We have two mixed-breed dogs who have no terrier blood in them as far as we can tell. There is no scientific way of actually determining what breeds are in our dogs and the DIY DNA tests for dogs are laughably inaccurate.

Specific breed legislation is not scientific, is illogical, does not stop dog bites, and is extremely difficult to enforce - especially because not all dogs are pure bred. This year's popular dog is probably also going to be this year's biter (see Dalmatians). It won't extinguish the breed being banned and it won't educate or stop clueless owners or owners who are not interested in following the law.

Jim O'Bryan · Post by **Jim O'Bryan** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:57 pm

Shawn Juris wrote:I believe there are other animals like chickens and goats that are prohibitted due to local ordinances. I seriously doubt the city include this in a welcome packet. In this day and age, I would say that this discussion would be used to inform potential residents with pit bulls of what they should expect. Would it be sufficient to post a button on the appropriate page within the city website to detail relevant pet information?

Shawn

While chicken and goat are illegal in Lakewood they are on the rebound in many metropolitan areas like Manhattan, Chicago, San Francisco, LA.

FWIW

.

Missy Limkemann · Post by **Missy Limkemann** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:10 pm

Shawn...go to this website...www.dogsindanger.com
Look at those dogs that are going to die in just days...now look at the city of Lakewood...and tell them that their dogs are going to be on that site too. Oh yeah, and tell them that will go to a gas chamber. A 4x4 cell and die by gas. Would you like me to show you those pictures, would you like to hear those sounds of the dogs screaming to get out?
That is what is going to happen!!!!!!!!!!! Innocent dogs who did nothing, but look a certain way, are going to die!!!! And our city which is already how many millions of dollars in debt is going to go further and further. There are 2 dog wardens here and they are over worked as it is. They not only deal with dogs, they deal with cats, and wildlife. Where is this money going to come from? Are you going to personally pay for this ordinance? Because you can bet I am not. My tax dollars are not going for this. I will move, take my business and my husband will take his business and we will leave.
Do you know if you find a stray dog and the warden is closed the police will tell you to let it go if you can't keep it? What about that? Isnt that a problem? What happens when everyone lets their pits go? Now you got a city full of stray pits and no waden on duty. What then?

Shawn Juris · Post by **Shawn Juris** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:14 pm

You guys are right it's not fair to compare chickens or goat to a pit bull. Clearly chickens and goats have a purpose.

Shawn Juris · Post by **Shawn Juris** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:43 pm

Why would I go to this site to prove that pit bulls could not be adopted outside of Lakewood? What I found was that there were no shelters that were participating with that site within 50 miles of Lakewood.

People before pets.

Ban a pit, save a life.

dl meckes · Post by **dl meckes** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:41 pm

Shawn Juris wrote:Ban a pit, save a life.

Is there a kind of a one to one ratio on this?

Seriously, how do you define a "pit bull" or "pit bull mix"?

Charyn Compeau · Post by **Charyn Compeau** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:17 pm

Yanno -

I am fine with the idea that are those that feel we should have legislation related to dog ownership.

I am fine with the idea that there are those that feel that there may be certain breeds that are more dangerous than others.

What irritates me to no end is the fact that those people will use the language of fear and some extremely strong propaganda tactics to force their ideas across.

If you have these ideas, then by all means do your homework, get some research, get some facts and prove your point. But please stop with the anecdotal, inflammatory crap.

Until you want to actually prove your points I am and will be against the ban based upon the research that I have done and I will continue to contact everyone in my rescue groups to try bring support and funds to the fight against this legislation.

And no, I dont own anything that even closely resembles a pit.

Shawn Juris · Post by **Shawn Juris** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:32 am

Couldn't agree more with you Sharon. I wish that the rabid dog advocates would stop already. Threatening the city with boycotts, moving out, lawsuits, the impending foreclosures that will result from a ban (clears throat), all are completely inappropriate.
It's odd that the complaint is that the city is trying to intimidate them then they proceed to attack me online and use my quote as part of some wild accusation about an alledged prosecutor's statement. I feel that my rights have been violated. Oh, wait nope, it was just my coffee coming up on me. I'll be okay.
FWIW, I have based my opinion primarily on the fact that insurance for this breed of dog is often not included in a standard policy. The policy that is needed costs $900/year for just the dog alone. I've also sat through the 3 hr CAO presentation and left feeling more supportive of the ban than when I walked in.

Ed Dickson · Post by **Ed Dickson** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:11 am

Shawn,

Great. You've proved your point. You hate dogs because you can't insure them.

You've also proved that you don't care that a law of this nature will cause good, responsible people to have the family pet that they love confiscated and killed. You've also proved that you don't care that the same resposible, tax paying, child raising citizens will leave the city rather than lose the dog. You've also shown that you don't care that a law of this nature will actually COST the city a significant amount more money than enforcing the current law with an educational campaign. I could go on and on.

For what it's worth to you, (which I'm sure isn't much) I don't own a Pit or Pit mix and am also against this ban.

Ed

Missy Limkemann · Post by **Missy Limkemann** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:19 am

Well if the insurance company says it is so then it must please. We know that insurance companies are God. *falls off chair laughing*

Brad Hutchison · Post by **Brad Hutchison** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:08 pm

I want to bring the emphasis back to Charyn's comments, because that's an important part of this whole debate. As I posted recently, many have presented a lot information on why breed bans are ineffective, unfair, expensive, and generally an all-around bad idea. All we've heard from ban supporters are broad, unsubstantiated claims that make one think packs of pit bulls are hunting children in the streets; calls to keep non-Lakewood residents from influencing the law (which apparently means we are to ignore experts' opinions if they don't live in the city); or that we need this ban because not enough people comply with the current laws (because no one knows about them), which is such a non-point in the discussion on the validity of a breed ban that I don't know why it keeps coming up.

A summary of information that I've found, much of which I've posted here before, just in case anyone is up for some light reading:

Attacking the Dog-Bite Epidemic: Why Breed Specific Legislation Won't Solve the Dangerous-Dog Dilemma - an exhaustive study published in the Fordham Law Review

A Community Approach to Dog Bite Prevention - published by the American Veterinary Medical Association, includes model legislation and advice for how the community can prevent incidents. The task force finds BSL to be "inappropriate and ineffective" and explains why dog bite statistics are invalid

Some organizations that oppose BSL:
American Kennel Club
Humane Society of the United States
American Veterinary Medical Association
Pit Bull Rescue Central
Centers for Disease Control

I have letters explaining their opposition to breed bans from:
Dr. Colleen Madden - Animal Clinic Northview, North Ridgeville, OH
Dr. David Glynn - Cleveland Animal Hospital, Cleveland, OH
Dr. Reveley - River Square Animal Hospital, Rocky River, OH
Dr. Beth Malinich - Animal Hospital of Fairview Park, Fairview Park, OH

Not to mention statements from Ed Dickson (North Coast Dogs), Missy Limkemann (All Dogs Heaven), and Dr. Robert Hutchison (Animal Clinic Northview).

I can only imagine how much data City Council has compiled on this issue...

Bryan Schwegler · Post by **Bryan Schwegler** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:17 pm

Charyn Compeau wrote: What irritates me to no end is the fact that those people will use the language of fear and some extremely strong propaganda tactics to force their ideas across.

I agree. As someoe who is a complete observer and who couldn't care less which way this ends up going, I have to say both sides have just gone overboard in their use of propaganda and extreme language.

To be honest, I'm more turned off by both sides on this issue than I am political ads during a Presidential campaign.

It's just over the top.