Department of Education

[Lynn Farris]

Okay, I'll willing to believe that maybe Ron Paul won't win the presidency. (I've only voted 1X for the presidential candidate that won and I have voted every time.)

But he has made me think and rethink many of my formerly held positions - which is good.

One of those is the importance of the Department of Education. I always thought that of course we should have it - education is so important. But then I see many of the things that it has done. Unfunded Mandates to the Local schools and now No Child Left Behind. I quite honestly don't know a teacher who likes NCLB. It is a big bureacracy which is expensive to operate. Would we be better off using this money for education rather than a department of education?

I really want to hear your opinions - especially teachers as to whether this department is needed.

[David Anderson]

Given the fact that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on several occasions that delivering public education is a state, not federal, responsibility I'm not sure why we have tens of billions being spent on this U.S. Department either.

However, Congress and the Feds can play a positive role in providing incentives that increase in U.S. educational attainment.

Perhaps the money used to run the department and manage all the grants could be put to better use by:

1) Paying for tuition for qualified high school students who earn all the credits needed for a diploma (save for attendance) and enroll in a two-year Associate's Degree program by the end of their 10th grade so that a diploma and degree are earned before the end of high school.

2) Offsetting tax deductions given to individuals and parents of dependents who incur costs related to obtaining an Associate’s Bachelor’s or Masters’ degree. If $15,000 is spend on college then the taxpayer responsible gets a $15,000 deduction. No limit on the “education investmentâ€Â

[Bill Call]

You might find this interesting:

http://www.dailyredundancy.com/archives/1079.html

[David Anderson]

Thanks for the link, Bill. It reminded me of an article I read last year regarding the [url]Abecedarian Project[/url] (this is just one of hundreds of articles written on this Project and the subject of early childhood education.

Sure, smarter kids are needed to improve overall performance in school. However, a simple readiness to learn is an ingredient missing in many students who fail to thrive in K-12 education.

Here is an excerpt I wrote a few months back for my church newspaper intended to show the value of our child care center:

"According to the child-development experts interviewed for the Early Years Study and the Abecedarian Project, schools spend a fortune on literacy and math programs, but fail to make a major difference in student achievement. These studies show that by the time children take their first steps into kindergarten, mostly by ages four or five, it is too late to change the way their brains are wired for learning. However, established early childhood programs introduced before age three produce dramatic long-term results including better primary, secondary and lifelong learning, lower crime and fewer physical and mental health problems later in life. The cost savings too are enormous, with one study estimating that society saves more than $17 for every dollar invested in early childhood programs.

Keys to successful early childhood programs include the availability of trained professional workers, low teacher to student ratio, quality instruction delivered by trained/licensed professional teachers and the encouragement of effective parental engagement and positive interaction at home."

Despite the link you provided, Bill, the state of Minneapolis has been very progressive over the past 20+ years in providing all new mothers with information on early childhood centers and in many cases vouchers to help cover the costs. These efforts appear to be paying off. Minnesota and its major urban city, Minneapolis, rank among the nation's best in terms of the number of folks over 25 years of age with a high school diploma or higher, Associate's degree or higher and Bachelor's degree or higher. Cleveland and Cuyahoga County are among the worst.

High school graduate or higher
Cleveland - 74.2%
Cuyahoga Co. - 85.5%
Cleveland-Akron-Elyria - 87.2%
Minneapolis - 86.6%
Hennepin Co. - 90.2%
Minn.-St. Paul-St. Cloud - 92.1%

Associate's Degree or higher
Cleveland - 17.7%
Cuyahoga Co. - 33.5%
Cleveland-Akron-Elyria - 33.3%
Minneapolis - 49.1%
Hennepin Co. - 51.2%
Minn.-St. Paul-St. Cloud - 44.8%

Bachelor's Degree or higher
Cleveland - 12.6%
Cuyahoga Co. - 27.5%
Cleveland-Akron-Elyria - 26.6%
Minneapolis - 43.2%
Hennepin Co. - 43.6%
Minn.-St. Paul-St. Cloud - 35.7%

I have a list that compares Cleveland, Cuyahoga Co. and Cleveland-Akron-Elyria with 12 other cities, their counties and CSA's.

With the lack of a competitive workforce coupled with tax policies deemed un-supportive of business growth, retention and expansion, no wonder our region's economy is performing the way it is.

Sorry for the extra long post.

[Bryan Schwegler]

Ohio in general needs to do something about our higher education costs. We have some of the highest state tuition costs in the United States. Until Ohio makes it more affordable for everyone, we'll never dig ourselves out of the hole.

[Jeff Endress]

Bryan

Add to those huge tuition costs the fact that they are all paid, by and large, from AFTER TAX dollars, and the actual costs are icreased by an average of about 28%.

It amazes me that Wahington talks of the need to invest in the education of our youngest generation, urges that this is one of the most important investments that we can make in our future, and then expects that the huge amounts necessary to finance this investment is paid for by the taxpayers with after tax dollars. Imagine the screams if we were unable to deduct our mortgage interest.......

Jeff

[Bill Call]

With the lack of a competitive workforce coupled with tax policies deemed un-supportive of business growth, retention and expansion, no wonder our region's economy is performing the way it is.

I hate to be contrarian but:

The State of Ohio and Cuyahoga County spend a lot of money on Colleges and Universities and graduate a lot of people from those universities. We have a smaller portion of our workforce with college degrees than other areas of the country not because we don't spend enough money or graduate enough students but because once they graduate they have to move out of town to find a job.

When most people talk about helping students pay for the high cost education they generally mean give the student more money so the university can continue to charge $2,000 for that freshman English class. I would rather the university be "encourage" to find a way to charge $1,000.

The Department of Education should be abolished and federal mandates should either be abolished or fully funded. By that I mean if the federal government says you have to send that deaf kid to a private school at the cost of $300,000 then the bill goes to the feds and not the local school board.

Of course that will never happen so we are just stuck with the system we have.

I'm pretty sure that the link I provided was tongue in cheek but did illustrate the point that a good district isn't a good district because it has better teachers but because it has better students. More money does not mean a better education, it just means more money.

Remember Rule # 12 of the Other Club and have at it.

[David Anderson]

Bill –

In economically depressed/disadvantaged areas, ensuring that kindergartners show up to schools ready for kindergarten costs money. Large numbers of Cleveland kindergartners are not ready for kindergarten. “Smartâ€Â

[Stephen Calhoun]

moved to Lakewood Discussion Brain Drain Question

[Bill Call]

I’m glad you sited the article and also delighted that by virtue of that act you are advocating for increased government spending on early childhood education.

Programs like Head Start provide very young children with a fun, challenging and safe environment for learning. But by third grade children who attended Head Start don't do any better in school than those who didn't.

I am all for cutting aid to colleges and spending it early childhood education.

A good start would be to abolish the federal Department of Education and use the money saved to provide vouchers for early childhood and secondary education.

[Tim Liston]

Not sure where to post this, here seems as good as anyplace. There have been a smattering of LO threads about education lately....

My oldest daughter is now in a “traditionalâ€Â

[Vince Frantz]

Tim,

I disagree

If Rip Van Winkle witnessed this education system - he would probably see some very disturbing changes and serve up some pretty scathing criticisms.

Some questions ol' Rip would have:

Why are all the kids divided by age?

Why do kids have so many different teachers?

Why do you need different teachers for every grade?

Why are kids tracked as numbers instead of people?

Why are they forced to sit still?

Why are they drugged if they can't sit still?

Why is so much security needed?

Why aren't older kids teaching the younger ones?

Where are all the trades? Apprenticeships?

Why has "consumer science" replaced "citizenship"?

Why would a 5 year old be expected to read before he learns to skip rope?

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I think he would actually be quite disturbed by how education has evolved. It doesn't matter if it is public or private - the forces that shape today's education are not based on the science of how kids learn. Instead it is based on how to keep your job, how to garner public funding, how to keep control, how to keep building consumers and how to get re-elected. How these issues remain suppressed amazes me.

[Tim Liston]

Wow Vince…

So OK let me reveal a couple things….

No surprise that my own children went through Montessori schools, Ruffing Montessori (Rocky River) in particular. Great school….

The bigger surprise maybe, my wife Dawn witnessed and was so taken by how they “teachâ€Â

[Gary Rice]

OK, let me settle down for a moment...

Tim, you've met me and I'd like to think that you'd agree that I'm not some wild-eyed off-the-wall individual (that is, unless you are looking at my picture with the musical saw)

We both share a love of bikes, and I admire many things about you.

I also am fond of a number of Montessori teaching methods, peer tutoring, and more classroom flexibility.

I am also NEA, all the way. In fact, even as a retired teacher, I maintain union membership (OEA-retired) Teachers have the right to collective bargaining, a decent wage, and whatever benefits they can attain through the negotiated process. They also have the right to a safe workplace environment, and other good and just benefits as they are able to negotiate.

I share many of the same concerns that you do with schools today. By the same token, however, I believe it vital that we continue to support the public schools. We must not give up on them simply because problems arise from time to time. Nor can we look at public schools as being homogeneous. The fact remains that good teachers do make a difference every day in the public schools across this country. Additionally, pilot programs are always being developed to improve education delivery and retention models. Teacher training is more rigorous than it's ever been for public education. Finally, Ohio public schools have shown significant and quantifiable gains in the past few years in a number of areas.

The trouble with certain types of non-quantifiable learning environments is that you are never sure exactly what the student has learned. All too often, the discovery learning process, or lack thereof, depends on an individual teacher's whims, rather than a system of checks and balances.

As far as reading, or other milestone guidelines are concerned, they are simply that, to a point. Still, failure to meet several quantifiable milestones can be a reason to seek early intervention.

Public schools serve a wide variety of students. They have that resultant experience that is so important to the developmental process. I have seen so many gaps in the education of so many students coming in from a number of private sector schools. Parental involvement, whether with public or private sector education, would seem to be a major key to a student's future success.

[Vince Frantz]

Skipping rope, I will recommend that to Dawn. Sounds like a great idea. Certainly the other points you make are germane and important. It’s just that the above stuck home with me.

Tim - I was using "skipping rope" as a placeholder for any activity worthy of a 5 year old. The shift towards academics at earlier ages means cutting time for more age appropriate activities. Children's brains are still being wired to their limbs. Drilling their brains at 5 is too much for many kids (boys especially).

Someday when I get a chance I’ll join Dawn and teach the children how to ride their bikes. Let me give you a hint. It won’t involve training wheels. I mean how can you teach balance with training wheels? Training wheels delay learning. Think about it….

Hahaha-- have we had this conversation? Santa's elves made a balance bike for my daughter right after her 3rd birthday. She lifted her feet the first day and she was riding a two wheeler with pedals after only 3 weeks of the balance bike. I have since loaned the balance bike to numerous other parents and had them return it in only a few weeks once their 3-4 year old was riding the pedal bikes (no training wheels).

By midsummer last year, when Greta was about 3 1/2 - we were cycling around Lakewood, observing traffic rules, crossing streets, etc. By end of summer I was letting her lead.

My son Emmett is 2 and was just starting to get the feel of the bike before it got cold. As a skateboarder myself, I understand that motion is the key to balance.

In a way - the balance bike verses training wheels is a microcosm of all that's wrong with education today. There is an obviously effective way to learn - yet it requires letting your child go. Plus - you're weird if you don't buy the same thing everyone else does. Oh well. Maybe Santa's elves can invent a "magical" education system also.

Thanks for responding. I rant on this forum sometimes and people think perhaps that I don’t have it all together. Hopefully you and I can help people ask themselves whether their children are really being prepared to help lead our world to be a better place, or whether they are just being prepared to fend for themselves in a world which is headed in the wrong direction.

There are many other parents on this board and around town that are more or less "afraid to speak up". In our hearts - we think school should be public. We think that kids should learn along side all other kids. But when you start critiquing the system you're painted as "weird" or "elitist". But elitism is why we have this pressure for kids to be readers at 5 and mathletes at 10. These things are testable and (as Gary noted) they need to find things that can be measured quantifiably across this great state of ours. Yes, parents are ultimately responsible. but when they don't step up - it would take much more than big tests and higher standards to make a difference in those kids' lives.

Like I said - the kids are just numbers now. On a balance sheet, on a pie chart, on an attendance sheet. A system designed around individuals as a unit verses a vast sea of statistics is antithetical to the way public education is funded and staffed.


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Gary

I support collective bargaining and professional and safety standards for teachers. I was raised in a union household - my mother was the president of her NEA chapter and my father is an Apprenticeship administrator for Local 18 of the IUOE.

But professional standards are only a starting point. Good unions have evolved with the times but the NEA has not. The chief goal of the NEA should be to advance the art of educating children thereby ensuring employment and demand for highly skilled and professional teachers. But it seems that the union has not evolved beyond serving the teachers as labor force. What we need them to become is the "National Childhood Learning Association". There doesn't seem to be a formal body to address this.

The distinction of public vs private means nothing to a child's progress. Private schools who ignore science do just as poorly as the public schools. No one is advocating "private" schools vs "public". It is the failed techniques and policies that are being scrutinized here.