Commuter Rail in Lakewood

[Tom Bullock]

Compliments to Ed Favre for the great story in the Sept. 20 Observer re: bringing commuter rail to Lakewood. Ed's history of Lakewood rail was engaging and well-researched; his argument for rail in Lakewood was compelling and well-developed.

Diversifying transportation options is bigger than Lakewood--a region-wide issue--but Lakewood, as the crown jewel of livable communities in NE Ohio, ought to be leading the pack in bringing rail and bicycles as viable commuter options. (As a city, we also ought to make several truly walkable pedestrian zones--plazas ringed by cafes, office space, and retail.)

I'll build on Ed's proposal: make the train station in Lakewood a classy Victorian platform (Ed's idea) in a park and add a "Whistlestop Cafe" that offers coffee, sandwiches, and seating under the trees. They do this in London park squares--we can do it here.

[Edward Favre]

Thanks for the nice comments. A power-point presentation is being prepared for the community groups, meetings, etc.

Also, the Drafting and Graphic Arts classes at Lakewood High are designing a potential Lakewood station as a class project. We envision a Victorian era, historical, and very Lakewood design that will be bicycle and pedestrian freindly.

[Daniel Waitkus]

I also enjoyed the article by Ed Favre. The train Station tied into a Detroit/depot loop around the Downtown Lakewood would create a wonderfully walkable district in the heart of our walkable retail district. HMMM?

[c. dawson]

I'm curious about the response from other West Shore communities. I recall a newspaper article in the PD a short while ago broaching the topic, and the then-mayor of Rocky River was opposed to it. Essentially his opposition was one heard in the far eastern suburbs that would be along any extension of the Rapid green line ... while the trains could take our people into the city for their jobs, it could also bring the "wrong element" out to our community to rob and steal ...

While such an attitude is sad, I don't think it's entirely unusual, and it's something that has cropped up in other cities with mass transit. But it is just a crock in my opinion, because that same "wrong element" could come out to Rocky River or Westlake by bus and do the same thing. What is it about a commuter train?

Look, those tracks are PERFECT for commuter rail, and would be a boon to the entire West Side, as well as be good for funneling people into the urban center of Cleveland. Wouldn't it be great to hop a commuter train into the city on a saturday to catch an Indians game or on a sunday to catch a Browns game? No fighting traffic, trying to find a place to park, etc. Or hop the train to go in to eat at the Warehouse District, or to transfer to a Rapid to go out to University Circle and eat in Little Italy (especially once they get a new station there). We could reduce traffic, reduce petroleum use, and help make Cleveland and the suburbs better places (after all, Lakewood really was a prototypical "streetcar suburb").

It seems like a win-win situation for all ... but why aren't our civic leaders in the West Shore stepping up and saying "let's do it!" ???

[Shawn Juris]

Seems to be an interesting idea. There were some compelling reasons to use the system. Two questions though; will this train be going where our commuter on I-90 are going, and how will it be better than the existing rapid? Traffic on I-90 east in the morning is heavier than going west, but how many of them have an end destination of downtown and not Independence or further east towards Mentor for instance.
All in all, it's a refreshing concept. Hopefully it goes through and is well used.

[Danielle Masters]

The idea of a light rail system in Lakewood is fabulous. The rapid is ok for going to a game or Tower City but other than that we don't use it. I grew up in San Diego which has a great Trolley system and we lived for year in the Bay Area. Wouldn't it be great to have something in the Cleveland area comparable to BART? Imagine Lakewood having a system that would get us around our city, we would be the envy of many. I guess I can dream but unfortunately I don't see mass transit around here improving anytime soon.

[Tom Bullock]

Wouldn't it be great to hop a commuter train into the city on a saturday to catch an Indians game or on a sunday to catch a Browns game? No fighting traffic, trying to find a place to park, etc. Or hop the train to go in to eat at the Warehouse District, or to transfer to a Rapid to go out to University Circle and eat in Little Italy (especially once they get a new station there).

Exactly right--worrying about/paying for parking is a big pain, solved if you can hop a reliable, frequent train service. If I could catch a convenient train to W. 6th Street/Public Square, I'd choose that 9 times out of 10 over a Shoreway-parking hassle option.

I grew up in San Diego which has a great Trolley system and we lived for year in the Bay Area. Wouldn't it be great to have something in the Cleveland area comparable to BART?

I studied/worked in Washington, DC for years, and the "Metro" subway system there was a great alternative. It's also a big part of the DC development boom--in their suburbs, the neighborhoods around stations are zoned for dense development and are top-shelf real estate.

Imagine Lakewood having a system that would get us around our city, we would be the envy of many. I guess I can dream but unfortunately I don't see mass transit around here improving anytime soon.

Yes--a train stop as a launch point into/out of Lakewood would build on existing strengths--young college student types who don't have reliable access to cars would use this to get to/from Cleveland & Lakewood's restaraunts, clubs, etc.

The key is to get started--do the doable first, then build from there. A Lorain-Avon-River-Lakewood-Cleveland line is a practical first-step, the low-hanging fruit. Once people get into the habit of riding there will be demand for more.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Diversifying transportation options is bigger than Lakewood--a region-wide issue--but Lakewood, as the crown jewel of livable communities in NE Ohio, ought to be leading the pack in bringing rail and bicycles as viable commuter options. (As a city, we also ought to make several truly walkable pedestrian zones--plazas ringed by cafes, office space, and retail.)

Tom

I can honestly say no other topic has drawn as much mail and input to the Observer's Office. For a longtime The Peninsula was top mail getter, recently talk of City Manager pro and con has come in. But the response to the rail article is all positive and actuallys seems to be growing.

Some think the idea might be too small with thoughts of if it went to Sandusky it would make a nice ride to cedar point, vacation land of the North Coast. I know of many families that buy summer passes for the Point, and with an experienced "sitter" or family member this could be in daily use for many.

One Observer suggested running it from Cleveland(whiskey island) to the ferries for Kelly's Island and Put-In-Bay, and call it The Whiskey Train. While this would get drunks of the roads, it would cause the trains to slowly start smelling bad like an old cab. While driving cab, you would always end up with at least one puker a month, and try as you might, the aroma never quite left the cab.

For those who would love to experience this type of travel I suggest The Lake Erie Limited. Take the family to Chicago for the day. Leaves Cleveland at 6:00am I believe gets to Chicago at 11:30, leaves back to Cleveland at 6:30 pm and arrives around midnight. Makes for a great day.


.

[DougHuntingdon]

for anyone taking Amtrak, I would not suggest on banking on being able to go round trip to Chicago as JOB suggests without Plan B. Be prepared for the train to start out at least a couple hours late. Additionally, be prepared for it to stop at least once for a couple hours en route while a freight train unloads in front of it - other than that, it is a nice ride and you get a lot more normal clientele than you do on Greyhound. For the punch palace type, they even let you drink your own alcohol on board, at least as of a couple years ago. Alternatively, you could get a Greyhound to Chicago or maybe try the new megabus.com.

Via Rail in Canada is very good. You can take it out of Niagara Falls or Windsor. Last time I was on it, some canuck was irate that the train showed up a whole 5 minutes late!!!

If they put another train route through Lakewood, I would probably ride it. Most people, though, even in Lakewood, think they are too good for public transportation (unless it is an airplane).

Doug

[Bill Call]

Think of a commuter rail line through Lakewood as another freeway tearing through town.

Without a really large number of people working downtown the demand for a commuter line from Westlake to downtown would be very small. For anyone living in Lakewood taking the rail would make little sense. It would be easier to use a car.

If they build a commuter line it will require operating subsidies, lessen the quality of life in Lakewood, do nothing to encourage economic development in Lakewood and encourage out migration to Westlake and Avon.

City officials can't maintain parks, handle housing code violations or other of the most basic functions of government but they want to run a railroad.

They must be excited by the prospect of riding with the engineer and ringing the bell, toooot toot, toot toooot!!

[Shawn Juris]

What is being studied in the next step of the feasibility study? Will predicted usage and increased need for supplemental transportation be considered?

[c. dawson]

The funniest thing about this entire discussion is that what we're talking about used to exist. There was a time, o so long ago ... like back in the 1950s and earlier, when you could hop a train to virtually any city in the US. And you didn't have to leave at 6:00am, you could leave any time of the day or night, because trains were always coming through. And there was light rail, streetcars and trolleys that could take you all the way out to Cedar Point, or down to Geauga Lake (in fact, many parks, like Euclid Beach Park, Willoughbeach, White City, and others were built along streetcar lines to ENCOURAGE more streetcar usage).

But then came the lure of the automobile ... and it also helped that GM, which made busses, was buying up streetcar lines all over the country and dismantling them, offering up busses instead.

Yes, that old-fashioned way of transportation was actually a good way. It was fuel-efficient, it moved people quickly and easily, and it allowed for growth on a manageable scale through metropolitan corridors (read the book by the same name), rather than unguided sprawl.

Is it too late to turn the corner? Can we go back? It may be, but taking a page from the history books and returning to mass transit is a good way to go. In Cleveland it's going to be a hard sell, because unfortunately mass transit has turned into a socioeconomic issue ... the "haves" drive cars and live in the suburbs. The "have nots" can't afford a car, must take the bus, and live in the inner city. So the idea of mass transit hasn't been so "mass," but is rather viewed as transportation for folks who are less fortunate than we ... which scares many surburbanites. Look at the RTA green line ... RTA owned land for the green line right-of-way that could have allowed them to extend it through Beachwood to meet up with I-271. Commuters could have gotten off there, parked, and taken the rapid into downtown, saving gas, and reducing traffic. But the folks in Beachwood were terrified that the "wrong element" would take the Rapid out to Beachwood to rob their houses ... and so they eventually blocked RTA, which ultimately sold the land to the city, which turned it into a park.

I think we do have to start small, such as a commuter line through the west shore, so that people in the area can see that mass transit works for ALL of us, not any one group, but the region as a whole. Look at Chicago or Washington ... there the light rail lines are a necessity for getting around, and EVERYONE uses them, and it makes those cities infinitely more liveable ... which is good, because otherwise the traffic there is incredible. Could you imagine Chicago rush hour WITHOUT the El?

I hope this turns out to be more than fruitless discussion, as it has been in the past. Let's see some action, let's get some dirt flying, and let's get some trains rolling. I work downtown, and I would LOVE to be able to not drive in, but take a train to get to work, so I could read the paper in the morning and otherwise relax, instead of being stressed out by the constant rush-hour traffic.

check out http://www.trainweb.org/noars/railroads.htm

[Jim O'Bryan]

The funniest thing about this entire discussion is that what we're talking about used to exist.

CD

Couldn't agree more. Found a fascinating study about the end of train and streetcars and how GM hurried them both of of existence to help sell cars and Buses. Also had many a mayor help with the kill off. One of the big lawsuits that went nowhere was right in Cleveland where they found the mayor, and transportation director getting a GM car dealership as they phased out trolleys and commuter trains.

I had a conversation with Ed last week where I was thinking that it was only a handful of years ago when the city proudly removed the last of the rails from Detroit Avenue I believe.

Today it would be almost cost prohibitive to put the rails back.

.

[Edward Favre]

It's important to define some points:
The commuter rail we are discussing is not light rail, like the Waterfont Line or Shaker Rapids, or trolleys. These are heavy rail, conventional trains with engines and passenger cars. Go to "Music City Star" and you will see where Nashville just started service with the same equipment we are discussing here.

Going with this available equipment greatly reduced start up costs versus new equipment or stringing overhead wire for electric trains. Conventional trains on conventional freight railroads are successful in urban, suburban and rural area throughout the country, including metro Chicago, New York/New Jersey, and Boston.

The initial proposal is Cleveland to Lorain. That has been identified as a prime route by NOACA in a previous study.

[Edward Favre]

Bill:

I think if you reread the article, it will answer a lot of you concerns.

Ed

Think of a commuter rail line through Lakewood as another freeway tearing through town.

Without a really large number of people working downtown the demand for a commuter line from Westlake to downtown would be very small. For anyone living in Lakewood taking the rail would make little sense. It would be easier to use a car.

If they build a commuter line it will require operating subsidies, lessen the quality of life in Lakewood, do nothing to encourage economic development in Lakewood and encourage out migration to Westlake and Avon.

City officials can't maintain parks, handle housing code violations or other of the most basic functions of government but they want to run a railroad.

They must be excited by the prospect of riding with the engineer and ringing the bell, toooot toot, toot toooot!!