Another Eatery Closed Due to Covid

[Bridget Conant]

Sadly, the owners of Salt have decided to close because of Vovid exposure. No details on who, what, or how, but they are being responsible closing and quarantining

What did people expect?

Restaurants and bars are incubators. Covid is spreading like crazy and people still go out to eat and have a drink!

It’s NOT the time to do this and continuing in this oath will result in death and devastation of the economy.

[Dan Alaimo]

Does anyone here have knowledge of air conditioning and heating systems to say, in layman's terms, what specs are needed for filters and such to provide adequate protection for businnesses such as restaurants against Covid-19? I'd like to ask questions about it in specific buildings and building codes, but would prefer to have the answers first.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Does anyone here have knowledge of air conditioning and heating systems to say, in layman's terms, what specs are needed for filters and such to provide adequate protection for businnesses such as restaurants against Covid-19? I'd like to ask questions about it in specific buildings and building codes, but would prefer to have the answers first.

Add Corky's to the list of closings due to COVID.

Dan From CNN / WHO Report https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/health/c ... index.html

MERV ratings
In his edict to New York mall owners, Cuomo was talking about HEPA filters, which have the highest MERV ratings, between 17 and 20.
What's MERV? It stands for "minimum efficiency reporting value," and it's how filters are rated in their ability to trap tiny particles. The MERV ratings go from one to 20: Filters with higher MERV ratings are more effective than filters with lower ratings.


At the highest end, HEPA filters are used by hospitals to create sterile rooms for surgeries and to control infectious diseases, and are able to remove 99.97% of dust, pollen, mold, bacteria and other airborne particles with a size as small as 0.3 microns. For comparison, Covid-19 is thought to be between 0.06 to 1.4 microns.
"Filters are rated at their worst performance, so 99.97% is the worst it will do," Allen said. "And that's rated for a particle size of 0.3 microns, but smaller and larger it actually does better. So the point is that it's capturing nearly all particles."

Unfortunately, most businesses and home owners may find it difficult to retrofit their existing system to accommodate a HEPA filter, or any filter higher than the rating recommended by the system's manufacturer.

Doing so can actually impair the system's performance: Smaller pores in HEPA air filters make it more difficult for it to push air. Using denser filters can affect the efficiency of the unit and strain the fan, while decreasing indoor air quality -- the opposite of what you desire.
"HEPA filtration is not always going to be feasible or practical," Allen said. "But there are other filters that can do the job. What is recommended now by the standard setting body for HVAC is a MERV 13 filter."

High-efficiency filters in the 13-to-16 MERV range are often used in hospitals, nursing homes, research labs and other places where filtration is important.

Earlier in the article they make mention of catching it from a unit grabbing it off of someone walking by. The answer was currently they are worried about the highest forms of transmission which is face to face under 6' or 8' to be safe.

More cases showing up with acquired antibodies disappearing withing 8-12 weeks...
Coronavirus herd immunity may be 'unachievable' after study suggests antibodies disappear after weeks in some people
https://www.businessinsider.com/coronav ... WV10AzGbXU

.

[pj bennett]

I read, that overhead fans will definitely spread droplets far and wide. Probably any sort of fan would do the same.

If someone asymptomatic (a carrier) happens to cough or sneeze (a normal body function, after all), those droplets can spread ever so much more quickly with the assistance of a fan.

Another reason to not linger anywhere. Just get in, do what you need to do.... and get out.

[Dan Alaimo]

Does anyone here have knowledge of air conditioning and heating systems to say, in layman's terms, what specs are needed for filters and such to provide adequate protection for businnesses such as restaurants against Covid-19? I'd like to ask questions about it in specific buildings and building codes, but would prefer to have the answers first.

Add Corky's to the list of closings due to COVID.

Dan From CNN / WHO Report https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/health/c ... index.html

MERV ratings
In his edict to New York mall owners, Cuomo was talking about HEPA filters, which have the highest MERV ratings, between 17 and 20.
What's MERV? It stands for "minimum efficiency reporting value," and it's how filters are rated in their ability to trap tiny particles. The MERV ratings go from one to 20: Filters with higher MERV ratings are more effective than filters with lower ratings.


At the highest end, HEPA filters are used by hospitals to create sterile rooms for surgeries and to control infectious diseases, and are able to remove 99.97% of dust, pollen, mold, bacteria and other airborne particles with a size as small as 0.3 microns. For comparison, Covid-19 is thought to be between 0.06 to 1.4 microns.
"Filters are rated at their worst performance, so 99.97% is the worst it will do," Allen said. "And that's rated for a particle size of 0.3 microns, but smaller and larger it actually does better. So the point is that it's capturing nearly all particles."

Unfortunately, most businesses and home owners may find it difficult to retrofit their existing system to accommodate a HEPA filter, or any filter higher than the rating recommended by the system's manufacturer.

Doing so can actually impair the system's performance: Smaller pores in HEPA air filters make it more difficult for it to push air. Using denser filters can affect the efficiency of the unit and strain the fan, while decreasing indoor air quality -- the opposite of what you desire.
"HEPA filtration is not always going to be feasible or practical," Allen said. "But there are other filters that can do the job. What is recommended now by the standard setting body for HVAC is a MERV 13 filter."

High-efficiency filters in the 13-to-16 MERV range are often used in hospitals, nursing homes, research labs and other places where filtration is important.

Earlier in the article they make mention of catching it from a unit grabbing it off of someone walking by. The answer was currently they are worried about the highest forms of transmission which is face to face under 6' or 8' to be safe.

More cases showing up with acquired antibodies disappearing withing 8-12 weeks...
Coronavirus herd immunity may be 'unachievable' after study suggests antibodies disappear after weeks in some people
https://www.businessinsider.com/coronav ... WV10AzGbXU

.

I didn't intend this question as adversarial, although it could become that once the answer is known.
If just asking, "is your HVAC system/code up to standards for resisting Covid-19?" the answer will be "yes" 90% or more of the time.
So, is the question: does your HVAC system have a MERV 13 (or above) filter?

In this week's LO, there was an article by Joe Meyers, Building Commissioner. Jim, could you ask him to address this? Do Lakewood's codes reflect this new reality? Again, not adversarial. "Yes" would be great to know. "Working on it" would be acceptable. "No " is something else.
This could even become a promotional point; a little logo indicating that this business/restaurant's HVAC system is safe from the Covid-19 standpoint.
pj makes a good point about ceiling fans. It's probably better to turn them off.

Jim, on Cuomo, I must've gotten the thought from him. I've listened to every one of his briefings since early April or late March and it's hard to retain everything, although it seems to me those comments were fairly recent. This will piss off a lot of women, but I really wish Biden would break his promise and pick Cuomo as VP. He's proven himself over and over like no one else as someone who is up to the immense challenges of today. This says nothing about a woman's ability to lead - I think Hilary would have done a great job - but Andrew Cuomo is the person for these times.

[pj bennett]

I'm with you, Dan.

At the risk of pissing off a lot of people, I've always felt, that a position should be filled by the Most Qualified Person.

Now, if that person happens to be of a sex or of a color or of a nationality that is underrepresented, all the better.
Nor, do I feel that a person should be disqualified due to their sex or color or nationality.

But, I believe that is the merit, the ability to get the job done, that counts.

If we can't have Cuomo, then the next best thing will do.

But, we really need someone, who can lead in battling the covid cooties.

[Kate McCarthy]

I'm with you, Dan.

At the risk of pissing off a lot of people, I've always felt, that a position should be filled by the Most Qualified Person.

Now, if that person happens to be of a sex or of a color or of a nationality that is underrepresented, all the better.
Nor, do I feel that a person should be disqualified due to their sex or color or nationality.

But, I believe that is the merit, the ability to get the job done, that counts.

If we can't have Cuomo, then the next best thing will do.

But, we really need someone, who can lead in battling the covid cooties.

This is what Elizabeth Warren was doing in January:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/28/elizabe ... break.html

Here's Cuomo in March:

“Excuse our arrogance as New Yorkers — I speak for the mayor also on this one — we think we have the best health care system on the planet right here in New York,” Mr. Cuomo said on March 2. “So, when you’re saying, what happened in other countries versus what happened here, we don’t even think it’s going to be as bad as it was in other countries.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/nyre ... elays.html

Who's the most qualified?

[pj bennett]

?

Good question

My remark was meant in the broadest of senses.
Whether it's choosing the manager of a fast food restaurant, the supervisor of a nursing department or anything other position, I feel that the ability to get the job done is most important.

(For the record, I do not engage in politics with anyone outside my family.)

[Kate McCarthy]

If we can't have Cuomo, then the next best thing will do.

My remark was meant in the broadest of senses.

Really? Sounds pretty specific to me. And if you don't discuss politics with anyone outside your family, why are you here?

[Dan Alaimo]

If we can't have Cuomo, then the next best thing will do.

My remark was meant in the broadest of senses.

Really? Sounds pretty specific to me. And if you don't discuss politics with anyone outside your family, why are you here?

Kate,
I'm the one you want to be tangling with here. pj picked up on some of my comments and is not the Cuomo booster that I am. I want to see him as VP but only temporarily - under Biden he will get the top job soon. Andrew Cuomo is nobody's "vice" or "co" or "lieutenant". One of my viewpoints is that a governor generally makes a better president than a legislator. It's a matter of skill sets. We can debate that. For example, from the Dems, Obama was okay and only got better with experience; Clinton was strong throughout despite his maelstroms; thinking back, did we ever have a better Dem president than FDR?

Earlier in this thread, you quoted Cuomo bragging about New York State having the best "health care system on the planet" on March 2. That was immediately put to the test. March 1 was the first Covid-19 case in NYS, rapidly escalating to 76 cases by March 7, when Cuomo declared a state of emergency. It was not until later that it was discovered that the virus came from Europe, not China, via JFK airport. Nobody - read "nobody'' as Trump - told NYS that the virus was coming from Europe, causing a tragic delay and the worst virus hot spot to date. By now Miami or Houston may well be worse. The "New York on Pause" order - basically shelter-in-place - was instituted on March 20 and cases, hospitalizations and deaths continued to rise astronomically.

Largely through daily briefings that leaned heavily on blunt facts and his own unique style of cheerleading, Cuomo got citizens of the state to cooperate to the extent that they knocked down the virus, or in the parlance, flattened the curve. The state is gradually reopening based on science and metrics. And the health system gets credit along with a multitude of others.

But there was one more thing: the George Floyd murder, which happened in the middle of all this. Within days or weeks - as soon as the legislature got back - a comprehensive bill was approved and signed addressing police issues across the state. Yes, it had already been in the works, but Cuomo gets credit for that too.

That's two huge accomplishments for two of the biggest challenges of our day in a matter of months. Maybe they will hold, maybe not, but that's why I put Cuomo forward. He is a liberal Democrat and a worthy follower in the line of Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
---
I want to come back soon to some of the other matters in this topic of more direct relevance to Lakewood, such as HVAC systems and masks. I find that they are related as both deal with air filtration. I'm gradually getting up to a very slow speed on such things as HEPA and MERV, and would appreciate any experts in our community stepping up.

[Amy Martin]

Since this thread has veered off-topic, may I suggest that we start another to debate Vice Presidential picks . . . .

[Bridget Conant]

Taco Tontos returning to carry out only as per their Facebook page.

[Kate McCarthy]

Since this thread has veered off-topic, may I suggest that we start another to debate Vice Presidential picks . . . .

I was not debating VP picks but per usual, certain people will filabuster until they decide it's off topice. So very tiresome.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Tampa Mayor Jane Caster just said in a TV interview. "Our single biggest mistake was reopening the bars and restaurants for seating inside and out."

Time stamp this one for Lakewood.

.