Libel concerns

[Dan Alaimo]

It was mentioned to me by a very cautious Deck member that we need to be more aware of libel violations than we are.
There are two primary tests for libel: is this a public figure; is it the truth.
Public figure is easier to figure out. I would say the mayor and the two mayor candidates are clearly public figures. Ward council candidate are a tougher call. But I would say people who start a PAC and were once in the public eye in Lakewood, but no longer are, are very questionable. Same for former officials. Be careful that what you say about people like that is objectively true.
As far as truth, what is truth? Especially these days?

[Bridget Conant]

False statements are libel.

Are you saying there have been false statements made with reckless disregard? Otherwise, you don’t meet the standard for libel.

Politicians, in particular, have a very high bar to jump to claim libel.

[Dan Alaimo]

To reiterate what I told Bridget by Messenger:
Be careful.
Be civil.
That goes for all of us, including me and that man behind the curtain.

[ryan costa]

The campaign season is heating up.
I try to stay out of politics.
http://radi0.ca/radioarchive/csb/wcsb-2 ... Debate.mp3

[Jim O'Bryan]

It was mentioned to me by a very cautious Deck member that we need to be more aware of libel violations than we are.
There are two primary tests for libel: is this a public figure; is it the truth.
Public figure is easier to figure out. I would say the mayor and the two mayor candidates are clearly public figures. Ward council candidate are a tougher call. But I would say people who start a PAC and were once in the public eye in Lakewood, but no longer are, are very questionable. Same for former officials. Be careful that what you say about people like that is objectively true.
As far as truth, what is truth? Especially these days?

Dan

Please while I understand the need for truth and honesty, this is a bunch of BS.

The Deck members rarely if every bring non-public figures into discussion here.

The people in question as public figures are all public figures.

Which doesn't mean tear them down any means necessary, but does mean a lot in the sphere of conversations.

HOWEVER, as we have witnessed over the past couple elections a desperate need for the truth and understanding of facts is desperately missing.

I would hope that everyone here realizes putting your ass on the line by running is a massive step.

Carry on, if it is the truth it is not libel!

.

[Gary Rice]

Gee,

The man behind the curtain? LOVE it!

I remember when I was a man (or rather, a teen) behind a curtain here in Lakewood.

It was my band's first job, and we were ready to go!

Well, almost...

The lead singer got stagefright, and said "DON'T OPEN THE CURTAIN OR I'LL THROW UP!"

Well, the show HAD to go on.

So we opened the curtain, and, if I'm remembering properly, he kinda-sorta did. I seem to recall too that the audience loved it.

Transparency, you see.

In my humble opinion, I do think, by the way, that there are WAY too many closed curtains with strange gurgling sounds going on behind them in Lakewood these days, on MANY sides of things...

But on the other hand...

There are a lot of OPEN curtains too, MORE in fact, than all those closed curtains with all those funny sound effects and scary voices behind them all put together...

...and on Election Day, guess what? All those voting booth curtains will close, and without benefit of sound effects, our own not-so-silent voices will speak objective truth, without fear of libel, or any other negative aspects.

Perhaps then, the old Lakewood Observer peace-making banjo will ring again.

Back to the banjo...

[Jim O'Bryan]

Gary

Gary glad to see you are OK.

The Observer is about standing in the light of day and owning comments.

The Observer is about Free speech, and a person willing to own their words say, input their words.

When people throw around terms and threats like libel, it is only to kill a conversation not let it grow.

People, all people, are easily judge by words, comments and actions.

No need for threatening anyone.

People, carry on, truly nothing to see here.

.

[Mark Kindt]

Mr. Rice:

This linked thread is satire.

http://lakewoodobserver.com/forum/viewt ... 24#p187303

Ms. Madigan is both a former elected public official and a current public employee. My satire is directed at both of her roles, past and present.

Her employer is currently under both state and federal investigation. She is the official spokesperson for Cuyahoga County. She was also a public official on the board of Lakewood Hospital during that public policy disaster.

Her new "Good Government" PAC deserves the ridicule that I rained upon it.

Her formation of the PAC exemplifies why there needs to be serious reform in ethics-in-government standards in Lakewood and at Cuyahoga County.

Gary, Democratic Party leaders do not deserve a free ride on terrible public policy outcomes -- mismanaged county jail, demolished hospital, or dismantled healthcare safety-net.

I believe that all of my posts made here are within the scope of my federal and state constitutional rights.

Given what has happened in Lakewood over the past 5 years, an honest and open dialogue needs to occur before, let's say, Lakewood Public Library is regionalized, bull-dozed, and converted to luxury townhouses.

Remember, Gary, that is exactly what happened to the Hospital while public officials like Mayor Summers, Tom Bullock, Mary Louise Madigan, Kevin Butler, et al., kept it completely secret.

Past is prologue.

[Gary Rice]

Jim, Mark,

Nice to hear from you both.

One thing about putting stuff on the internet? It is forever, so I would think that a little precautionary advice, (as Dan offered here) is not a bad thing at all. Not all of us are attorneys and able to discern the legal difference between opinions and oopsies.

At least, it would be my sincere hope that everyone who posts in these forums would have the best of intentions that a better Lakewood may come out of all this...

...a Lakewood where neighbors will once again smile and wave, and better communicate the many ways that we care about each other.

As I recall, that was one reason this old 'Deck was developed, and I do believe that it has served a vital purpose in helping Lakewoodites to get to know each other better.

Election season? Sure some fur is going to fly.

But...

...at the end of it all, we'll still all be here together.

Back to the banjo...

[Bridget Conant]

Gary

I appreciate that you are a kind person who highly values civility and remaining cordial even when there is disagreement with another.

You are not comfortable “calling out” people, or pointing to someone’s past words or actions. I respect you for that.

But just because you think people should always “play nice” doesn’t mean that pointed criticism, that you yourself might think but never state, is anywhere near what would be ruled libel.

Nothing posted here meets the standard of libel.

Saying posts are potentially libelous stifles conversation and implies that posts, or people should be scrutinized.

I trust people to monitor themselves. I trust people to post only the truth. I trust people to understand that another person’s opinion might not agree with their own, but they have every right to state that opinion.

[Dan Alaimo]

For the record:
I completely own and stand by my comments here and in personal correspondence.
If I feel the need to, I'll comment more later, but right now I need to get out to Costco... in Avon.

[Gary Rice]

Let's hope that some good comes out of this thread.

If people could be just a bit more cautious and caring with each other,

if people could just think a little more before they say and do stuff that could potentially hurt other people...

...then, perhaps this thread will have achieved its purpose.

This does not for a moment excuse whatever alleged wrongdoings that may have happened in this city.

Nor for one moment would I ever suggest that people should not speak up and speak out when they think they can make a difference.

As far as "libel" goes? What does that term mean anyway? I'm no attorney. I'll leave that to the experts.

Libel, at least to me, is not the essential issue here anyway.

Civility is.

Back to the banjo.

[Mark Kindt]

Mr. Rice.

For several years, I written commentary that was very careful, nuanced, and documented chronicling pretty outrageous official and semi-official conduct.

With that out of the way, I will now be blunt!

Hundreds of members of our community lost access to public hospital charity care in February 2016, about $7,000,000 annually.

How would you like me to measure their suffering and misery?

With a smiley-face?

I don't think so.

How would you like me to measure the suffering and misery and deaths of those who have been locally incarcerated in subhuman conditions?

With smiley-faces?

When Ms. Madigan associates her name with the tag-line "Good Government", does this absolve the local Democrats from what are simply atrocious policy outcomes?

Frown-face. I don't think so.

In some situations, civility is NOT in order.

Please play your banjo at the corner of Detroit and Belle.

Please play your banjo outside the Cuyahoga County Jail.

Better make it the Blues!

[Gary Rice]

All:

When I post on the 'Deck, I do try to be positive and not offend anyone, but at the same time, I also try to get my message across loud and clear.

Speaking of messages, let's have Gary quote Gary here, in case anyone missed my last posting:


"This does not for a moment excuse whatever alleged wrongdoings that may have happened in this city.

Nor for one moment would I ever suggest that people should not speak up and speak out when they think they can make a difference. "


So as not to have any confusion here, an exclamation mark is not a smiley face.


I'm very careful where I put my smiley faces.


Candidly, I've received all sorts of grief for making positive posts here over the years. A long time ago, I came to the conclusion that someone had to do it, and whenever possible, that person would be me. At the same time, there is no doubt that Lakewood sits at a crossroads, and perhaps even at a tipping point. Those of us who care, time and again, have met and sat across from each other many times, and thought about how we could be constructively proactive in responding to those things in Lakewood that could be improved upon.

I applaud anyone who tries to make a positive difference in our city, or in life generally.

In doing so, we could indeed go forward without smiles or humor, but in so doing, do we not risk losing a bit of our humanity in the process?

So again, I have no intention here to anger anyone by my posts.

Nor to back down from them either.

Back to the banjo...

[Stan Austin]

I think many of our posters have their own unique ways of using this medium to express opinions. Just as a musician will strum a guitar, a photographer will post a picture, or a thinker will post a thought---all deserve the same consideration on the reader's part that the contributor invested in their opinion.