tOO bAD, sO sAD
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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jackie f taylor
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:47 am
tOO bAD, sO sAD
Another one bites the dust, for a few more dollars, once the Hilliard property were renovated, it would, it could have been one of Lakewood's most treasured assets, a vintage old theater with apartments,, priceless, what an asset to the area. and your letting it go? cause it cost more to save than rebuild? isn't it worth it, ask the directors of
Playhouse Square. Image if Millions Row, Euclid Avenue, those mansions, built by the worlds rich & famous, were still there, what city has that? omg, your destroying our image, our heritage and our traditions. It's a real shame. I cannot protest enough.
Playhouse Square. Image if Millions Row, Euclid Avenue, those mansions, built by the worlds rich & famous, were still there, what city has that? omg, your destroying our image, our heritage and our traditions. It's a real shame. I cannot protest enough.
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jackie f taylor
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:47 am
Re: tOO bAD, sO sAD
The old Bishoff''s upholstery & decorating building on Detroit & Cove? It was certified for occupancy, there was nothing in violation in that property. The owner retired and had a deal to sell the building, so he ask the tenants to leave, they did, the deal fell through, it went up for sale, asking $225,000. that's so cheap, so reasonable, my plate was full, now it's gone, the building was beautiful, nice storefront, and 3 sweet apartments upstairs, another Lakewood gem, gone. The only demolition I agree with, is that ugly doctors building next to Lakewood Hospital, I mean, the former.
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jackie f taylor
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:47 am
Re: tOO bAD, sO sAD
Was it the McKinley School they tore down to build those awful ugly town homes? That's like placing George Jetson's house in Fred Flintstone's Bedrock neighborhood. Talk about a sore thumb. The Poster boy. The school was good enough for kids, teachers the year before, they should have turned that into apartments, like West Tech. wow. am I the only one who can see this? Medina Square would not be what it is today if they would have destroyed it, destroyed is the key word. Luxury Town Homes on Detroit? In who's eyes? not mine, sorry, Bishoff's would have been luxury. at least, unique apartments. Why didn't the city command, there would be retail down and apartments up, that would have made sense. Who wants to sit there in the first floor living room?
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Dan Alaimo
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:49 am
Re: tOO bAD, sO sAD
Great analogy, Jackie.jackie f taylor wrote:That's like placing George Jetson's house in Fred Flintstone's Bedrock neighborhood.
“Never let a good crisis go to waste." - Winston Churchill (Quote later appropriated by Rahm Emanuel)
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jackie f taylor
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:47 am
Re: tOO bAD, sO sAD
Those modern structures don't fit the neighborhood, not in the least, not the new town homes on Slone Avenue, not McKinley, not the " Luxury Town Houses" on Detroit. not the awful town homes they built on Lake Avenue, where the church used to be, around Lake and West 100th St. I want to be one of the voices heard when proposals are made to the city, I would not allow it to happen. My big mouth would shout it all over the land.
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scott gilman
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:10 pm
Re: tOO bAD, sO sAD
Jackie I agree about the tearing down of historic buildings I loved inspecting them when I was Fire Marshal. Each one of the buildings you cite had different issues. The Bischoff building at Fry and Detroit was occupied and had a purchase agreement pending. Before the deal closed there was an arson fire that caused the northeast corner of the building to collapse. The build was repaired but I don't recall it ever being occupied after the fire.
The theater building had tenants in the apartments under he current owner. After hurricane sandy the roof was damaged and never repaired. The water running into the building caused the plaster to collapse in both the theater and the arcade. The exiting from the apartments had to go through the arcade as part of the required means of egress without the ceiling this are could not be used as an exit and the apartments could not be occupied. The theater had become so open to the weather that we did not need flashlights to see in the theater during the inspection. The stage had partially collapsed and safety was a concern while doing the inspection. As a favor to a fried I had inspected the Cleveland Public Theatre building before it was purchased the building was in good condition with an intact roof. Based on what I saw at the Hilliard Theater I question if even a single seat would be salvageabl. If there are questions about what the city did to try and get things done on this building I would suggest checking the court records for the number of cases filed on this property over the years.
The theater building had tenants in the apartments under he current owner. After hurricane sandy the roof was damaged and never repaired. The water running into the building caused the plaster to collapse in both the theater and the arcade. The exiting from the apartments had to go through the arcade as part of the required means of egress without the ceiling this are could not be used as an exit and the apartments could not be occupied. The theater had become so open to the weather that we did not need flashlights to see in the theater during the inspection. The stage had partially collapsed and safety was a concern while doing the inspection. As a favor to a fried I had inspected the Cleveland Public Theatre building before it was purchased the building was in good condition with an intact roof. Based on what I saw at the Hilliard Theater I question if even a single seat would be salvageabl. If there are questions about what the city did to try and get things done on this building I would suggest checking the court records for the number of cases filed on this property over the years.
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jackie f taylor
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:47 am
Re: tOO bAD, sO sAD
thanks Scott, that is so sad, can you tell me this, if the property were completely restored, restaurant, theater, apartments, electric, plumbing, all of it, what would you estimate it would cost to update it? also, after all that work had been done, now thriving, filled to capacity, with a waiting list, of a year, what would that property be worth? Is it worth doing all that work? a landmark?
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scott gilman
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:10 pm
Re: tOO bAD, sO sAD
From what I saw inside the theater I don't know that it could be saved. Almost all the ceil were collapsed, duct work had collapsed onto the seats the building was soaked. The roof was missing in multiple places. There was no way to safely check the connection points of the trusses to the walls. The arcade ceiling was gone and all the HVAC equipment was exposed and there was no safe way to evaluate that. I had inspected that property on many occasions since 1983 and had successfully gotten repaired made but after the hurricane not much has been done
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jackie f taylor
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:47 am
Re: tOO bAD, sO sAD
In todays Sunday Plain Dealer, "Arts & Life", they showcase 13 buildings in and around Cleveland, properties that were saved from the wrecking ball, and what great assets they are to the city. oh well.
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Lori Allen _
- Posts: 2550
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Re: tOO bAD, sO sAD
Jackie,
That building is in Cleveland and was demolished by C & J about three months ago. The demolitions in Lakewood appear to have started around the time that Fitzgerald went to the county. My documentation that I have been posting here on the Deck involves Lakewood and is quite disturbing.
The homes I have mentioned, I believe, are being deemed nuisances and torn down as a convienience for Summers and Extended Company. It is a way way for the city to steal them from their owners. Many without due process of law. Some, such as the Newman home, were of historical value. ( I believe city hall may be profiting from these demos. )
I am asking that all who read the Deck to please review all of my previous posts here on the Deck regarding housing and stay tuned for what is about to come. I believe it will be coming to a head soon.
Jackie, perhaps if you happen to see Summers, you could ask him to explain the alleged housing scams here in Lakewood and let us know what you find out. Thanks.
That building is in Cleveland and was demolished by C & J about three months ago. The demolitions in Lakewood appear to have started around the time that Fitzgerald went to the county. My documentation that I have been posting here on the Deck involves Lakewood and is quite disturbing.
The homes I have mentioned, I believe, are being deemed nuisances and torn down as a convienience for Summers and Extended Company. It is a way way for the city to steal them from their owners. Many without due process of law. Some, such as the Newman home, were of historical value. ( I believe city hall may be profiting from these demos. )
I am asking that all who read the Deck to please review all of my previous posts here on the Deck regarding housing and stay tuned for what is about to come. I believe it will be coming to a head soon.
Jackie, perhaps if you happen to see Summers, you could ask him to explain the alleged housing scams here in Lakewood and let us know what you find out. Thanks.
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jackie f taylor
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:47 am
Re: tOO bAD, sO sAD
Lori, if I should run into Summers, I will pose that questions, and yes the pictures of are the Fifth Church of Christ, Lake Road @ W 117th, just an example of how artifacts can be reused, saved. The Hilliard Theater has many.
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Terry Tekushan
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:16 am
- Location: cleveland just S of Woodward
Re: tOO bAD, sO sAD
@jackie f taylor, believe me, I feel your pain.
That Theater is special in so many respects. And it was special to me for about 10 years when I rented storefronts on the Madison side and partnered with Bob the owner to keep the theater dry until the time was right for it's rebirth. There were excellent plans for its reuse in a novel way that would have alleviated the need for lots of parking in the short term. It involved a collegiate partnership with the New School out of NYC.
The only people who understood what we were talking about were the interim planning director and interim economic development official appointed by then mayor Tom George. Mayor George was immensely supportive and a breath of fresh air.
This didn't last long. The usual suspects of the professional permanent and "connected" governing class around these parts filled those positions and the oppressive sense of myopia returned to my impression of city hall.
My brother and I delivered programming plans and a long term urban design concept that offered art, education, food, and entertainment to that prominent Y at Hilliard and Madison. The plans were delivered to city hall, but to those who displaced the wonderful interim officials; a city hall where the plans went into the apparent Bermuda Triangle the city has long kept especially for any visionary or positive use of that building.
The overriding pall cast over the plans was pretty thick, as it seemed more and more apparent that this community's powerful and unimaginative had their vendetta against the place and they were going to enforce it. The sense of hostility towards both Lakewood's architectural heritage and its vibrant youth culture (you know, its defining characteristics that its future depends on) gave pause. So much so that we wondered if the risk was too great- not because of technical or market issues but of the threat that city hall would nail us to a cross for trying something that didn't "click" with their "clique."
The dealings between my brother and Bob the owner faltered under this weight.
I'm aware that this scenario (with different actors and plans) has played out for Bob several times since. And that temporary roof stabilization plans were thwarted by city hall as well.
I no longer doubt that the city's actions of the last 6 or 7 years are not unrelated to other monumental events in city governance vis a vis what were thought to be civic institutions.
I guess I'm drawn to buildings and things that bear witness to the excellence expressed in the creative output of dedicated and talented people.
In particular, I somehow have an appreciation for the work of those who would soon become part of a legion of disillusioned creatives. Were they unrealistic? Maybe by underestimating what happens when the power hungry and greedy and bone-headed take over wherever they sense the energy of creativity at work.
The artisans who built the Hilliard theater are among the disillusioned, I suspect- where all their talents became passé and their excellence replaced with acres of cheap drywall and drop ceilings;
as are the stewards of the theater who saw it remodeled in 1953 so as to conceal much of its beauty behind acoustic deadening curtains - that incidentally destroyed the phenomenal acoustics of the space until removed by Bob the owner;
as are those who were undoubtedly mortified when the 70 year parking lot lease was broken in 1962 so the roach motel next door could be built over the increasingly needed parking lot;
as are those who saw their dream of legitimate art theater deteriorate to pathological porno;
as are those who tried again in the late 80's when the long neglected boiler finally could take no more abuse and small boilers were provided to apartment and stores only- damning the theater to unconditioned environmental damage to roof and contents;
as am I, who spent a decade doting on the building, keeping the theater dry with materiel supplied by Bob the owner, and codeveloping detailed plans for a thoroughly modern approach in utilizing an irreplaceable performance space whose subtlety and fundamental structure was well designed and well built and remains strong even today;
as is Bob Dobush, who, for whatever flaws are pointed out in his strategy (like underestimating bureaucratic myopia and intransigence), is paying a stiff price for having wanted to preserve something beautiful for future restoration that generations of Lakewoodites could enjoy- and stand as testament to the cultural durability of architectural and engineering excellence.
Instead we will soon have testament to human greed, stupidity, and sociopathology. And a short-sightedness that exposes the utter lack of any vision for Lakewood that doesn't involve a corporate cookie cutter motif that is as already ubiquitous as it is un-Lakewood.
IMO, Lakewood should take its leadership and country club set and dump the lot of them out where Lakewood hospital has actually landed- in the strip center hell they all apparently crave.
Where destruction is success.
Where tastelessness is klassy.
Where history is …history.
That Theater is special in so many respects. And it was special to me for about 10 years when I rented storefronts on the Madison side and partnered with Bob the owner to keep the theater dry until the time was right for it's rebirth. There were excellent plans for its reuse in a novel way that would have alleviated the need for lots of parking in the short term. It involved a collegiate partnership with the New School out of NYC.
The only people who understood what we were talking about were the interim planning director and interim economic development official appointed by then mayor Tom George. Mayor George was immensely supportive and a breath of fresh air.
This didn't last long. The usual suspects of the professional permanent and "connected" governing class around these parts filled those positions and the oppressive sense of myopia returned to my impression of city hall.
My brother and I delivered programming plans and a long term urban design concept that offered art, education, food, and entertainment to that prominent Y at Hilliard and Madison. The plans were delivered to city hall, but to those who displaced the wonderful interim officials; a city hall where the plans went into the apparent Bermuda Triangle the city has long kept especially for any visionary or positive use of that building.
The overriding pall cast over the plans was pretty thick, as it seemed more and more apparent that this community's powerful and unimaginative had their vendetta against the place and they were going to enforce it. The sense of hostility towards both Lakewood's architectural heritage and its vibrant youth culture (you know, its defining characteristics that its future depends on) gave pause. So much so that we wondered if the risk was too great- not because of technical or market issues but of the threat that city hall would nail us to a cross for trying something that didn't "click" with their "clique."
The dealings between my brother and Bob the owner faltered under this weight.
I'm aware that this scenario (with different actors and plans) has played out for Bob several times since. And that temporary roof stabilization plans were thwarted by city hall as well.
I no longer doubt that the city's actions of the last 6 or 7 years are not unrelated to other monumental events in city governance vis a vis what were thought to be civic institutions.
I guess I'm drawn to buildings and things that bear witness to the excellence expressed in the creative output of dedicated and talented people.
In particular, I somehow have an appreciation for the work of those who would soon become part of a legion of disillusioned creatives. Were they unrealistic? Maybe by underestimating what happens when the power hungry and greedy and bone-headed take over wherever they sense the energy of creativity at work.
The artisans who built the Hilliard theater are among the disillusioned, I suspect- where all their talents became passé and their excellence replaced with acres of cheap drywall and drop ceilings;
as are the stewards of the theater who saw it remodeled in 1953 so as to conceal much of its beauty behind acoustic deadening curtains - that incidentally destroyed the phenomenal acoustics of the space until removed by Bob the owner;
as are those who were undoubtedly mortified when the 70 year parking lot lease was broken in 1962 so the roach motel next door could be built over the increasingly needed parking lot;
as are those who saw their dream of legitimate art theater deteriorate to pathological porno;
as are those who tried again in the late 80's when the long neglected boiler finally could take no more abuse and small boilers were provided to apartment and stores only- damning the theater to unconditioned environmental damage to roof and contents;
as am I, who spent a decade doting on the building, keeping the theater dry with materiel supplied by Bob the owner, and codeveloping detailed plans for a thoroughly modern approach in utilizing an irreplaceable performance space whose subtlety and fundamental structure was well designed and well built and remains strong even today;
as is Bob Dobush, who, for whatever flaws are pointed out in his strategy (like underestimating bureaucratic myopia and intransigence), is paying a stiff price for having wanted to preserve something beautiful for future restoration that generations of Lakewoodites could enjoy- and stand as testament to the cultural durability of architectural and engineering excellence.
Instead we will soon have testament to human greed, stupidity, and sociopathology. And a short-sightedness that exposes the utter lack of any vision for Lakewood that doesn't involve a corporate cookie cutter motif that is as already ubiquitous as it is un-Lakewood.
IMO, Lakewood should take its leadership and country club set and dump the lot of them out where Lakewood hospital has actually landed- in the strip center hell they all apparently crave.
Where destruction is success.
Where tastelessness is klassy.
Where history is …history.
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Bridget Conant
- Posts: 2896
- Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:22 pm
Re: tOO bAD, sO sAD
Some outstanding points made about our city leadership, including all those unelected, behind-the-scenes meddlers who run Lakewood:
The usual suspects of the professional permanent and "connected" governing class around these parts filled those positions and the oppressive sense of myopia returned to my impression of city hall.
The same type of people and thinking who have allowed Cuyahoga County and Cleveland to decline since the 1920's, when Cleveland was the FIFTH largest city in the United States, and on track to become another Chicago. We blew that, and inept leadership has kept us down since.a city hall where the plans went into the apparent Bermuda Triangle the city has long kept especially for any visionary or positive use of that building.
Sounds just like the hospital.it seemed more and more apparent that this community's powerful and unimaginative had their vendetta against the place and they were going to enforce it.
Look at the Clinic Family Health Center - a typical CCF style facility totally out of character for downtown Lakewood, but quickly approved by our "leaders."And a short-sightedness that exposes the utter lack of any vision for Lakewood that doesn't involve a corporate cookie cutter motif that is as already ubiquitous as it is un-Lakewood.
The Lakewood shadow government - they want the hospital gone, they want shopping. It would have been so much easier if they just moved themselves to Westlake or Avon -the places they emulate. Instead, we all suffer for their greedy shortsightedness.IMO, Lakewood should take its leadership and country club set and dump the lot of them out where Lakewood hospital has actually landed- in the strip center hell they all apparently crave.
- Jim O'Bryan
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- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
Re: tOO bAD, sO sAD
Bridget Conant wrote: The Lakewood shadow government - they want the hospital gone, they want shopping. It would have been so much easier if they just moved themselves to Westlake or Avon -the places they emulate. Instead, we all suffer for their greedy shortsightedness.
Bridget
I am not sure they wanted the Hospital gone, as bad as they had run out of avenues for money for their dreams of commercial economic success.
Years of complete and utter failures, led to declining dollars at LakewoodAlive before most bailed, ans they saw a chance to get a bnunch of money they could finally control for their delusional dreams of Lakewood as they wat it/
With ages approaching the 70s they had to do something, or slip away as failures, in their own mind.
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Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama