Union vs Non-Union?

[Ryan Salo]

I am not sure how the board of education makes decisions on matters such as this, but I heard today that they went with a union bid to repair the schools over a non-union and were willing to pay $450,000 more to do so.

These are our tax dollars and I want the best work for the lowest price, if this is true that they spent more to go with union is that fair to the tax payers?

Anyone have any information on this?

[Stephen Eisel]

Interesting! I wonder if the construction companies had different levels of experience? (does that make a difference?) What was the bid from the non-union vs union? I know the difference is $450k.. But was the total bid $7m for example from the non-union.. Thanks good post

[Gary Rice]

First, I'll give my disclaimer.

I'm a member of the Musician's Union, as well as the Ohio Education Association (OEA) and the National Education Association (NEA) retired.

I'm also a past Executive Board officer of the Parma Education Association.

Unions seem to have become the hot topic politically, lately. There are those who seem to feel that unions, particularly those involved with governmental bodies (and these are not government unions, as some call them) get too much of the proverbial pie slice.

Historically, unions have indeed looked after their own. After all, who else would have done so?

Along with that aspect however, came issues of maintaining quality standards for their members, as well as obtaining decent medical care or other insurance at group rates. Pensions were another consideration, as well.

As far as the schools or anyone else working with a unionized workforce, that just makes good sense to me. If someone were to be injured on the job, or unexpected questions came up, I think procedures would be more clearly defined with a professional union workforce.

Really, I think employers can often save money in the long run with union people.

There's probably more to this tale, than meets the eye.

[Ryan Salo]

Stephen,

Does it matter what the total bid was for? $450,000 could go a long way in the means of equipment for children or it could hire 12 teachers for a year!

I don't know all the details, but I hope this isn't true.

Does anyone know any more?

[Stephen Eisel]

Stephen,

Does it matter what the total bid was for? $450,000 could go a long way in the means of equipment for children or it could hire 12 teachers for a year!

I don't know all the details, but I hope this isn't true.

Does anyone know any more?

You are correct Ryan. $450k no matter how large the bids were is a lot of money for the Lakewood City School system..

[Phil Florian]

Well, you can't have everything. At the start of the Bush administration, NASA was given the new marching order to do things "Faster, Better, Cheaper." Ask any engineer there and they could tell you they could do any two of those but never all three.

So when I hear someone saying "I want my tax dollars spent on quality but at a low price" I have to wonder if they know what they are getting. There is no "lowest bid" mentality in most government agencies and, especially at the local level, I would hope not. Lowest means lowest and that is it. If that was the only factor, I would hate to have my kids walking around in a building that was built by the lowest bidder. Eeesh.

I have a cousin who works for the steel workers union and his concern over non-union shops were around the widely varying quality of workers. The Union shop ensures a level of competence that the non-union could not. Sure, some wood-working non-union shops employ some awesome Amish workers who know a thing or two about wood working (allegedly). But others hired day-laborers with little or no skills or background.

But I think without a lot more information (namely, what the Board used to make their decision) this is all hand-wringing. I am sure other things beyond price were looked into when making this decision. A list of past projects, how many came in under/at budget and on time, numbers of citations after the work was done, etc. Price might have been the last thing they considered.

Let me ask folks on here, do you all go with the lowest bidder for work on your home, work on your car, medical care, etc? Cheapest restaurant? Why or why not?

Lastly, this money is from a budget separate from teacher hirings. They save that money, it doesn't go to paying for more teachers. Probably the thought is that the savings might go to pay for someone to come in and fix the work of the previous company. Who knows. I think this conversation would best be served with a lot more info if folks are really that concerned.

[Stephen Eisel]

Side note: Were Hayes, Harding, Garfield and Harrison built by non-Union workers?

[Suzie Dean]

Unfortunately not all of the schools were built union. They were built both union and non union. I know this because my husband is a member of the Millwright Union Local 1871, and received a letter when the construction first started stating that some of the work was being done by non union contractors. He called and talked to someone from the city ( I can’t remember the person’s name) and was told that the city had to go with the lowest bidder. He was also told that the city received a significant amount of extra funds for going with the lowest bidder. With the construction going on at Garfield if you noticed they did have two separate entrances to the construction site. One for union workers and one for non union workers.

Union workers have to meet certain criteria to be gainfully employed by the union hall, they have to earn certifications in many different things depending on their trade.

I would gladly pay more in taxes to know that the job is being done right by well qualified union workers.

[Dee Martinez]

Remember there is a deadline factor too. Unlike the Y or the library, the schools must be completed by a fixed date The lowest bid may have not so great track record on finishing on time (I dont know this but neither does anyone else here)
Also every home owner has run into low-ballers who give you a low bid to start the work and then suddenly find reasons to add-on to the price when the work is halfway done.

NOT saying the non-union co. in question here does that, but some do.

Thats why governments award contracts to the "lowest and BEST bidder"

[Jim O'Bryan]

Dee

I think that was the term "Lowest responsible bidder" that made Lakewood School Board member Ed Favre to raise an eye to a couple of the contractors.

Problems were noted and the rest was put on the shoulders of the building department to check the work. I believe.

I would not say that the Y nor the Library had no schedule. This was one of the reasons for Ken asking workers to schedule time around the move to make sure everything went according to plan.

If I am not mistaken all three went through redesigns as costs went up from the first plan to keep them in budget.

One company recently, and the paperwork is on my desk, was an electrical contractor that had gone through, "Changes/overcharges" so much they were under federal investigation and had their office equipment seized. As of last week this company that had been favored by some, had pulled out of the process.

Will check when I get to the office.

Good, Fast, Cheap is about as easy to get as a winning lottery ticket.


.

[Dee Martinez]

I believe your facts are basically correct but I have no documentation nor the means to get it so I can only suggest hypotheticals.

I did not mean to suggest that the library or Y had no schedules. However a 30 day delay would simply mean those two would delay their opening. A 30 day school delay would mean, Im sure youll agree, total chaos.

[Marty Hout]

Ryan-
As a Local 310 Union Laborer I can assure you that the cost of using Union Building Trades is worth it. Union workers are usually better trained, better equipped and safer than most non-union companies. Not to mention drug screened. Using union trades also helps to reduce the chance of a fly-by -night company coming in doing a sub par job with underpaid and unskilled labor. Meaning if there is a problem with their work down the road and it needs to be repaired there is no one to be held accountable. As with everything, there are and will be some union and non-union companies that do poor work, in my opinion the use of Union Contractors lessens the chances of getting stuck with a poorly completed project.

[Frank Murtaugh]

I do not know the specifics of the referenced contract process. I do know the local construction trade unions run extensive apprenticeship, safety, and continuing education programs which turn out the very best skilled tradesmen in the world.
I want union laborers, iron workers, fitters, plumbers, carpenters, painters, tile setters, electricians, dry wall installers, and Teamsters on the big jobs in Lakewood. I think, as the 310 laborer indicates, union built is usually better built. Countless Lakewood residents are highly skilled construction trade union members who, because they are represented, are able to properly support their families.

[Ryan Salo]

So those that like union, would you ever use non union no matter what the extra cost? Assuming the non union had equally skilled abilities?

Or can a non-union company just never truly compete?

Do politics ever come into play when democrats award bids to unions?

Do the states without unions have poor construction? Are the buildings a safety hazard? Anyone have any facts?

[Dee Martinez]

So those that like union, would you ever use non union no matter what the extra cost? Assuming the non union had equally skilled abilities?

Or can a non-union company just never truly compete?

Do politics ever come into play when democrats award bids to unions?

Do the states without unions have poor construction? Are the buildings a safety hazard? Anyone have any facts?

I would say that, were I in a position to recommend or select bidders to a major public project, I would use a non-union firm ONLY if they had a LONG EXEMPLARY record of quality on-time work, references that were as good as if not better than the union, a proveable record of business practices (meeting deadlines, sticking to the original estimate, etc).

In other words if their work is as good as non-union lets see the proof.
I will also say in fairness that there are examples of UNION companies not meeting those criteria. Due diligence is ALWAYS essential, union or non-union

Your other questions not really relevant. In Lakewood the school board is non-partisan. Unlike city govt it is REALLY non-partisan. Unlike city council and the mayors office, the local Democratic and Republican organizations have virtually no involvement in the school board elections And I dont live in Mississippi so what the school buildings are like down there doesnt matter much to me.