No Child Left Behind?!

[Jim O'Bryan]

We have heard much about "No Child Left Behind." Everything from GWB's greatest success to a scam to drive Inner Ring suburbs into privatization. Is it as bad or as good as they say. Looking for opinions.

I happened upon a study from Harvard that really is a bleak look at the program, or more like a slogan and how it is just unfair to many school systems. I turned it over to Lakewood's and the Lakewood Observer's Logic Master, Gordon Brumm so that he can decipher the study from his old Alma mater.

http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu

Any opinions?



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[Grace O'Malley]

I've heard that act referred to as "No Child Left Behind; No Teacher Left Standing."


My main objection to the act, and others like it, is that parents are being fed the line that the testing that accompanies these "requirements" will insure that their child is adequately educated. They do no such thing.

The real purpose behind these measures is punitive and is directed at the teachers and school systems. It is a knee-jerk response to addressing a problem that involves the schools, the family, culture and society.

The real truth is that upper middle class and above students are fairly well served by the system and that will not change. Poor and working class students need support directed at the family: access to decent jobs, child care, and decent housing.

Family income is directly tied to academic success. SAT results have never been proven to be linked to any indicator other than family income. School achievement and grades are linked to family income. See a pattern here?

If we are serious about educating our youth and providing equal opportunity, we have to start at the beginning. Every family needs a job making a living wage. Until that happens, not one of these so-called child centered programs will ever work.

If I allow myself to get into the "conspiracy" mode, I can see that the end result of these NCLB initiatives is to eventually have an excuse to write a certain segment of the population off. Once they can "certify" that they are unteachable, they can justify abandoning them.

[Stan Austin]

Grace and Jim----

One of the ironies of the Bush/Cheney No Child Left Behind Act is that for several decades one of the political boogeymen of the radical right has been federal interference in local education with a particularly vehement anti teacher union stance thrown in. In fact the radical right went into a conniption fit when the Dept. of Education was established (with admittedly strong teacher union support) during the Carter Administration.

Therefore, it is especially curious that this Act does more to allow the federal government to shoulder its way into local education matters.

Last night at a committee of the whole meeting and school board meeting I picked up on some statements by Dr. Estrop. He wanted us to alert our representatives that this Act has been putting some onerous burdens on our system and other inner ring suburban systems. And there was the theoretical risk of losing control of a system to the feds or a private charter system. Dr. Estrop is not one for exaggeration. He is a clear thinking superintendent in the mold of Lakewood's past, excellent superintendents. So when he states a concern in those terms I am alarmed.

Additionally, in an annectdodal sense, I have heard good teachers complaining about the time required to prepare for the testing required by this Act taking away from the time they (the teachers) previously used to teach.

In conclusion I do see how the net effect of this act would be to create a permanent educational and social apartheid. Quite the opposite of what a great public education system once performed.

Stan Austin

[Bill Call]

The No Child Left Behind Act is an effort to establish some accountability in our education system. Teachers and administrators love an unaccountable system where everyone is above average but no one can read their diploma.

When the teacher's unions demanded a department of education they envisioned a stream of federal dollars pouring into districts to finance higher teacher salaries. What they ended up with is a department that buys no books, builds no schools and pays no teacher salaries. What we get for those billions of extra federal dollars is a huge bureaucracy that sends forth a steady stream of unfunded mandates.

The explosion in education spending has not affected student performance.
More spending leads to more of the same. The Lakewood system spends about $180,000 on each classroom. Does anyone out there think that's not enough money?

A second grade teacher in Lakewood with 18 years experience can cost the system as much as $100,000 per year. Are teachers underpaid?

A good start for reforming the education system would be to eliminate the department of education and the unfunded mandates demanded by congress.

Don't hold your breath for either of those things to happen.

We are on our own.

[dl meckes]

The No Child Left Behind Act is an effort to establish some accountability in our education system. Teachers and administrators love an unaccountable system where everyone is above average but no one can read their diploma.

What are the standards and benchmarks that Ohio has set? Where can I find the stated policies?

What does accountability mean?

If we teach civics and everybody can pass the standardized exam, will that translate into creating voters?

[Bill Call]

The tests attempt to measure what students learn. I guess you could say the test are the standards.

Over the last 20 years the teaching colleges have stressed "teaching the whole child". What they really mean is that teaching reading, writing and arithmetic is hard. It takes great effort on the part of the student and teacher. They view academic study as to tedious and boring. How much more fun to just "exchange points of view", after all there really is no right answer.


CPA's are tested before they become CPA's.
Doctors are tested before they become Doctors.
Lawyers are tested before they become Lawyers.
Notary Publics are tested before they become Notaries.
Drivers are tested before they become drivers.

But dare to say that students should be tested before they graduate and the response from some is "ARE YOU CRAZY! WHAT IS A TEST GOING TO PROVE!"

You could easily convince me that the current standardized tests are not perfect. You would have a hard time convincing me that there is no place for testing.

I sympathize with teachers and administrators who work in school systems that are not rated excellent. That rating does not usually reflect on the quality of the teachers or system but on the student and students family.

Within limits there is no such thing as a good or bad district. There are only students who are easy to teach and students who are hard to teach.

If you transferred Bay Village teachers to Cleveland and the Cleveland teachers to Bay Village my guess is you wouldn't see any change in test scores.

If you are not going to test students how else would measure progress? By how they feel? A few years ago a study of students found that those who felt the best about their abilities performed the worst.

[Stan Austin]

Bill---

With all due respect the essence of this discussion is about the No Child Left Behind Act.

My contention is that it is a political add-on that is harming the public education system.

The argument is not for or against testing or making comparisons between school districts. Those parameters have been measured for decades with, I would suggest, fairly accurate results. For example, we always knew who the smart kids and the dumb kids in school were. And, we always had a pretty accurate estimate of where our schools ranked withing the region and nationally. We all took national tests for competency as far back as the early 1960's.

So, in order to bust this thread wide open, I would ask how can an administration and its political acolytes who are anti science, for censorship, and basically uneducated be credited with promoting the status of education through this act?

Stan (coulda done better in school) Austin

[Mark Crnolatas]

A few years back, I took my wife to LHS, to show her where I had some of the best times ever.

What did we see regarding many students? I thought WE were rowdy. Wrong. We were rookies. My wife has 2 friends who teach, but one in Cleveland, one in Lorain County. One has been doing it for just about 20 years. Her comment was that the "educational system" is fighting this: "the students are daring the teachers to teach them something."

Another point. My daughter from my first marriage has a son in 2nd grade. He goes to a Catholic school close to Lkwd. My daughter, while picking up her son after school, was hit on with intense graphic verbage by EIGHTH graders. She told them off, and contacted the school admin.

Respect, morals and such are all developed long before the child displays them. That begins with the parents. Yes, a latch-key child who's father figure is a bunch of gang-bangers who worship Gangsta-rap, and his goal is to be the next "bad ass" in his area, is going to be slightly less moral than someone who is raised with strong parental guidance, and a degree of affluence.

This all didn't begin with GWB or Clinton, GB Sr. or Regan or back to Johnson. Some people equate the erosion of respect in education, as a generality, with the British invasion of music, back in the '60s.

What is the answer? If I had THAT answer, I'd be Emporer of Ohio, at least.

Mark Allan Crnolatas
"A society or group of people exist soley in it's ability to maintain an atmosphere of peace and civility. It's failure is directly relative to the degree of the lack of these conditions".

[Radoslav Karabatkovic]

thanks to the "no child left behind", I've been forced to take english speaking tests for the 3rd year in a row, after passing every proficiency test and Ohio Graduation Test (the new mandatory test to pass in order to graduate) in the past 7 years. I received a higher grade on my OGT reading and writing tests than most born Americans, and I'm still being forced to take english speaking tests because I received tutoring in the 4th grade when I first came to the US and didn't speak a word of english.

Now, as far as the NCLB bill it serves for nothing more besides funding, and to figure out which schools are worth the governments money and which schools aren't. What I don't understand is, and maybe I have a wrong idea of this, but why do poor-scoring schools get less money than high scoring schools? Wouldn't it make sense that a poor scoring school needs more funding and more development and more support to "get back into shape" than already developed higher scoring schools?

"you have to take this test because of the 'NCLB' bill or Lakewood High doesn't get the funding it needs from the government" I was told.

can anyone tell me; do politics always have to be about money, and not logic or to the benefit of the citizens??

[Stephen Calhoun]

Can you provide for me any data whatsoever that supports your statements:

Bill Call.

Teachers and administrators love an unaccountable system where everyone is above average but no one can read their diploma.

Over the last 20 years the teaching colleges have stressed "teaching the whole child".

What they really mean is that teaching reading, writing and arithmetic is hard.

Do you have any research at all on this stuff?

***

A good start for reforming the education system would be to eliminate the department of education and the unfunded mandates demanded by congress.

Would you share with us here on the Deck the top five unfunded mandates and their costs to Lakewood, and, especially, why you'd do away with them.

Thanks in advance.

[Jim O'Bryan]

But dare to say that students should be tested before they graduate and the response from some is "ARE YOU CRAZY! WHAT IS A TEST GOING TO PROVE!"

You could easily convince me that the current standardized tests are not perfect. You would have a hard time convincing me that there is no place for testing.
...


...If you transferred Bay Village teachers to Cleveland and the Cleveland teachers to Bay Village my guess is you wouldn't see any change in test scores.

Bill


I wish your assumptions were true, but they are not. The Observer is working on a series of articles that will show."No Child Left Behind" is a hollow slogan that was designed to privatize and take away control of schools from the parents and administrators that should not only have control but be accountable.

This series comes out of a couple stories and statements made in the past by Gordon, Ken, Dr. Chuck Greanoff, Jay Foran, Heidi, Steve Davis, and myself. Started with a very innocent statement by Gordon Brumm, Lakewood Logic Master, "Why does NCLB ask for physics to be taught in the senior year of High school, when it should be the first thing taught. All science is based on physics." Of course we know the answer if we get anything out of order our kids fail.

So what we will look at is: Why would they fail? Are they/we set up to fail? Is there a reason why this Administration decided on this program? Are the testing levels fair? Is the grading fair? How does this apply to Lakewood, our schools and students? I think you will be shocked and outraged when you see this laid out. Gordon's first story came with the slug to me of,

"This could be BIG.

As described in the article, a key factor in the NCLB evaluation is the threshold minimum number of students that must be in a certain category in order for that considered to be
considered and possibly count against the district.
The use of this threshold creates a bias in favor of suburbs and small towns, and against districts like Lakewood.

Two questions: 1) Why are these minimum thresholds used in the first place? Who decided?
2) How was it decided that 30 (45 for Spec. Ed.) would be the minimum number?
And why was a different number chosen for Special Ed.?"

This series of articles will be a great test for the Lakewood Observer, tackle a tough subject, get it into the light of day, and discuss it from all angles. The list of people working on this are as diverse as Lakewood.

So my question to you Bill and others:

What of the program is biased?

What if the program is an attack on Inner City and Inner Ring schools?

Would Lakewood be better served by having NO input into our schools and giving it over to a failed State Government or even worse in my eyes a Federal oversight group?

Is "No Child Left Behind" as Orwellian as "Healthy Forest" and "Clear Skies"?

I predict at the end we will see that NCLB is GWB's worst idea EVER. Think about that. I believe this liberal community will decided to go the route of Utah and tell the Feds to keep their money.



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[Stephen Calhoun]

I'm looking forward to the series.

Bill, a better experiment to do would be to ship Bay students to Cleveland, and Cleveland students to Bay.

If it isn't monies, or teachers, or other resources, or curricula, and, plucking all of this out of the 'system,' (for it surely is a system integrating any and everything which is a 'factor' in educational outcomes,) leaves only the factor of family and community...then, standardized testing might be seen as irrelevant.

My main interest is in adult education and adult cognitive capacities decades later. Have most adults retained their education? Although I don't know what would be the result, I'd love to give all parents the last high school standardized test and see how they grade out.

[Jim O'Bryan]

...My main interest is in adult education and adult cognitive capacities decades later. Have most adults retained their education? Although I don't know what would be the result, I'd love to give all parents the last high school standardized test and see how they grade out.

Calhoun


You know I love you like my twisted Uncle Joe u have to have Thanksgiving with today.

But while you are conducting, experiments, what people retain, they are trying to steal my Alma mater! I understand that being a wash ashore you do not understand fully the commitment the residents of this community made to the schools, and in return what the Board and Superintendent promised back in return.

I have seen the study, the numbers, the letter and the scandal.

What do you retain about this logic?

Let's say a school system is getting better every year, and they receive really good grade from the state. Yet the federal government wants to take away control of that system and give it to the state that just singeled them out for doing a great job?

How about the logic of grading a school on disability students, and if you fall 1 point below their ideal, they pull all funding for special ed?

I know you do not believe in conspiracies, and that the closeness of this administration with churches and other groups that have, own and operate charter schools is happen chance, but I see a very ugly possibility.

[Stephen Calhoun]

Hi Jim. As a washashore, I wouldn't understand what the sand understands unless the sand tells me.

Seriously, my interests are just what they are, as are my intentions. I don't have a skin in this game. I really have tried to resist expressing strong opinions about what Lakewood should do or not do because I don't live here.

On the other hand, I may hold opinions, yet they will always be extremely provisional until data and analysis strengthens them, or, smashes them.

(What else is new.)

Because the Lakewood Schools do an excellent job, the interesting question to me is why they are successful where other school systems are not.

In fact, Jim, this is, to me, the most interesting overall question with respect to public education in the US: why are some schools superb and other schools dreadful?

The "one size fits all" NCLB is bad law simply from the perspective of social science, education research, and other pertinent scholarly disciplines.

If you say NCLB is part of an agenda to gut our public school system, I might come to agree should you supply me adequate data. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn about the details.

Almost by definition, most oligarchies are compelled to invest in reinforcing the ignorance and superstitiousness and magical participation (i.e. 'group think,') of the citizens this elite rule over. This is a 'broad brush' -- indicative of the very provisional sense I hold lightly. But, this does end up with questions about educational outcomes implicated in adult mental life.

Why? Because the purpose of all education is to 'build' educated grown-ups.

[Joseph Milan]

Bill, a better experiment to do would be to ship Bay students to Cleveland, and Cleveland students to Bay.

Um, in case you're not aware of it, the last time that was tried was when a judge ordered busing in Cleveland. It not only created a mass exodus out of the city, it impacted the population of the entire county. Our region has never recovered from it. If you're going to do this correctly, it would have to be on a basis for both children and their parents, as well as the school districts involved, are willing participants; not something done thru force.

Joe