Hens in Lakewood? Forum tonight at 6:30

[Betsy Voinovich]

Hi all,

The following is from April Stoltz's front page LO article from the latest issue:

Can hens be raised responsibly in a Lakewood backyard? That is the topic of the public forum being con-hosted by LEAF and Hens in Lakewood. The forum is scheduled for Monday, March 26 at 6:30 p.m. - 8:30 p.m. and will be held at the Lakewood Public Library, Detroit Ave. branch, in the main auditorium.

This is an excellent opportunity for both Lakewood residents and elected officials to learn about the national movement of suburban hen-raising, Lakewood's proposed pilot project and how this is a fit with Lakewood's successful local food landscape. There will be time for questions and answers. Residents with thoughts and concerns are encouraged to come, ask and get factual information. On hand will be varying experts from the OSU extension, realtors, hen-keepers and local food advocates.

As far as I know there are no other meetings tonight, no Council, no School Board, no commission meetings. So potentially the whole City council could be there to get the facts. If you want chickens in Lakewood, or you don't want chickens in Lakewood, or you just wonder what all the clucking is about--ha ha-- don't miss this meeting.

Betsy Voinovich

chickenandtheegg.jpg (61.34 KiB) Viewed 1768 times

[Betsy Voinovich]

I couldn't get to the Hen Forum last night but I talked to April this morning to see how it went. She said there were 60 regular non-organizer attendees there. They did surveys and only 10 percent of them were non-supportive, and overall, it went really great.

Tom Bullock did the headcount, and it was great hearing the "yes" count far out-weighing the "no"s. Councilpersons Ryan Nowlin, Monique Smith, and Mary Louise Madigan were also in attendance.

It looks like where they're going from here is another run at City Council, though before that, they want to make sure the whole city is not only aware of the idea, but has all the facts.

Betsy Voinovich

[J Hrlec]

I couldn't get to the Hen Forum last night but I talked to April this morning to see how it went. She said there were 60 regular non-organizer attendees there. They did surveys and only 10 percent of them were non-supportive, and overall, it went really great.

Tom Bullock did the headcount, and it was great hearing the "yes" count far out-weighing the "no"s. Councilpersons Ryan Nowlin, Monique Smith, and Mary Louise Madigan were also in attendance.

It looks like where they're going from here is another run at City Council, though before that, they want to make sure the whole city is not only aware of the idea, but has all the facts.

Betsy Voinovich

Was anything mentioned on how they will make sure most of the city residents are aware of this discussion of backyard hens?

60 people is a good turn out but it is a small portion of Lakewood's approximately 50,000 residents many whom I would guess do not go to these websites and may not even be aware of these meetings or backyard hens agenda. People being unaware of these discussions do not necessarily make Lakewood pro or anti backyard hen.

[Betsy Voinovich]

I couldn't get to the Hen Forum last night but I talked to April this morning to see how it went. She said there were 60 regular non-organizer attendees there. They did surveys and only 10 percent of them were non-supportive, and overall, it went really great.

Tom Bullock did the headcount, and it was great hearing the "yes" count far out-weighing the "no"s. Councilpersons Ryan Nowlin, Monique Smith, and Mary Louise Madigan were also in attendance.

It looks like where they're going from here is another run at City Council, though before that, they want to make sure the whole city is not only aware of the idea, but has all the facts.

Betsy Voinovich

Was anything mentioned on how they will make sure most of the city residents are aware of this discussion of backyard hens?

60 people is a good turn out but it is a small portion of Lakewood's approximately 50,000 residents many whom I would guess do not go to these websites and may not even be aware of these meetings or backyard hens agenda. People being unaware of these discussions do not necessarily make Lakewood pro or anti backyard hen.

Hi J---

That's it, isn't it, in a nutshell. How will they make sure most of the city residents are aware? And then from there, how to make sure that city residents understand that it is their city, their elected government, and that if the city was to come together and decide to go forward with chickens, their elected government would have to come along. And if not, if there were fears, or prejudices that could not be disspelled? Maybe then a pilot.

Otherwise, I think they should just go for changing the law for the whole city, and skip the step about being "allowed" to do a pilot. If this issue comes to a vote, and the Hen people lose, maybe then they should do a trial.

One family at a time? Two? My great grandchildren will be able to eat fresh eggs? The research is in. There is a modern safe clean sustainable reasonable way to raise chickens. Only people that qualified would be able to raise them.

Mine is not one of the families that would be raising chickens, I don't think my backyard is deep enough-- but I definitely would be interested in enough hens being raised nearby that I could buy some, or trade for some. I'm definitely interested in my kids being able to eat fresh eggs not produced by factory-raised chickens.

Betsy Voinovich

[Cherise Sims]

There were flyers up all over town, the forum was posted here in the observer online and in print, lakewood patch, lakewood buzz. LEAF sent out an invite, there were numerous Facebook posts. This issue has also been featured on Fox 8 and news channel 5 several times. I am not sure how there could be more opportunity for community involvement.

[Jim O'Bryan]

There were flyers up all over town, the forum was posted here in the observer online and in print, lakewood patch, lakewood buzz. LEAF sent out an invite, there were numerous Facebook posts. This issue has also been featured on Fox 8 and news channel 5 several times. I am not sure how there could be more opportunity for community involvement.

Cherise

I remember back to when Joe Cimperman was trying to make chickens and bees legal to
keep in Cleveland. Many meetings I went to with only a small handful there. It seemed
like there was never going to be enough traction to make it happen.

Still with every meeting, progress was made, and I learned more and more. I think Cleveland
and now Lakewood could also learn something from this light turnout.

There will not be chickens in every house. We will not be walking down streets covered
in feathers and chickens. There will not be eggs for sale or Jerk Chicken Shacks in
front of every home.

Actually the impact on Lakewood would be much like Cleveland, a chance for those that
want to keep chickens in an urban setting living right next to those that do not, in harmony.

With chickens living in Cleveland now for over two years, and some owners of them having
10 or so, I have yet to see a negative come out of it in Cleveland. So maybe, there is
much to learn from the last meeting.

I would also point out, that many have tried to change the thoughts of Lakewood on a
whole and very few have succeeded. But many have been able to either change the mind
of council, or change council to get their ideas accomplished and implemented.

I am pro-chicken, very pro bee keeping, but think that because Martha Stewart does it
is just about the worst reason in the world for doing it or convincing others to do it.

FWIW


.

[Cherise Sims]

I agree with you! There have been no legitimate complaints in Cleveland since 2009 when chickens were allowed. I also like the part of Cleveland’s ordinance that states that all of the homes adjacent to the chicken keeper should be notified, this gives the neighbor a chance to let the city know if the potential chicken keeper is already a nuisance, with property issues which then gives the city a chance to investigate the legitimacy of the complaint. Since the biggest issue that has not been addressed by research is “Well my neighbor: already has pets and doesn’t clean-up, a junk yard, a home with violations” etc. This would be an opportunity to correct existing housing problems. We also recommend a provision for coop/run aesthetics where the coop should be built and painted in complementary colors to the neighborhood and the run should be covered in hardware cloth, not chicken wire. Scientific and anecdotal evidence have covered the rest of the fears.
With a well written ordinance, Lakewood has the opportunity to lead by example in the backyard hen-keeping movement, and to promote the city through coop tours, educational opportunities with the OSU Extension program via local backyard hen-keeping , gardening and compost classes and urban 4H programs. All of which are currently available in Cleveland.
Martha Stewart is an example for people who think chicken keeping is some low-end hobby. I also happen to like some of her decorative ideas

[Will Brown]

I agree with you! There have been no legitimate complaints in Cleveland since 2009 when chickens were allowed. I also like the part of Cleveland’s ordinance that states that all of the homes adjacent to the chicken keeper should be notified, this gives the neighbor a chance to let the city know if the potential chicken keeper is already a nuisance, with property issues which then gives the city a chance to investigate the legitimacy of the complaint. Since the biggest issue that has not been addressed by research is “Well my neighbor: already has pets and doesn’t clean-up, a junk yard, a home with violations” etc. This would be an opportunity to correct existing housing problems. We also recommend a provision for coop/run aesthetics where the coop should be built and painted in complementary colors to the neighborhood and the run should be covered in hardware cloth, not chicken wire. Scientific and anecdotal evidence have covered the rest of the fears.
With a well written ordinance, Lakewood has the opportunity to lead by example in the backyard hen-keeping movement, and to promote the city through coop tours, educational opportunities with the OSU Extension program via local backyard hen-keeping , gardening and compost classes and urban 4H programs. All of which are currently available in Cleveland.
Martha Stewart is an example for people who think chicken keeping is some low-end hobby. I also happen to like some of her decorative ideas

I realize you are zealous about this subject, so I am curious as to what you consider a "legitimate" complaint. It seems to me that to a true believer, no complaint could be legitimate.

And I question whether we want to emulate Cleveland, a city so run down that it would seem nothing could decrease their property values. I think most of us would want to distance ourselves from Cleveland, rather then emulate it.

But my main question is who is going to pay for this. With city services already strained, I don't think you can add a department of coop compliance without adding the personnel to staff it, and I would rather see my money going to maintain traditional services and strengthening them where weak; stricter enforcement of property maintenance, for example.

As for informing the community of this proposal, most of what has been done seems to attract only those parties who already have an opinion. I think many people who would oppose this are disinclined to give up the opportunity to do something of interest to them to attend a stacked forum; rather we rely on our representatives to protect our interests.

[Cherise Sims]

I realize you are zealous about this subject, so I am curious as to what you consider a "legitimate" complaint. It seems to me that to a true believer, no complaint could be legitimate.

And I question whether we want to emulate Cleveland, a city so run down that it would seem nothing could decrease their property values. I think most of us would want to distance ourselves from Cleveland, rather then emulate it.

But my main question is who is going to pay for this. With city services already strained, I don't think you can add a department of coop compliance without adding the personnel to staff it, and I would rather see my money going to maintain traditional services and strengthening them where weak; stricter enforcement of property maintenance, for example.

As for informing the community of this proposal, most of what has been done seems to attract only those parties who already have an opinion. I think many people who would oppose this are disinclined to give up the opportunity to do something of interest to them to attend a stacked forum; rather we rely on our representatives to protect our interests.

Well, there was a complaint about a pig which is illegal that had nothing to do with the chickens that were on the property and other than that there have been 0 complaints in three years according to the health dept. Who handles the issue and also would handle chicken issues in Lakewood. The Cuyahoga County Health dept. So…
As for the cost to the city, how much do you think it costs to send letters to properties that abut the property of a person who wants to keep chickens? How much to send someone in housing to check for issues? In fact housing already has a list of 1500 homes in need of repair in Lakewood, how hard is it to cross-check the list and deny a permit. Cleveland has chicken keepers pay a 50 permit fee, couldn’t Lakewood do the same and have some of that go into paying for the service? Another question, how many people do you think are going to undertake the time and expense to even have chickens? Cleveland has about 50 permits and that is out of what? About 500,000 people!? How many out of 52,000 do you think will do this?
That being said, I never said we should emulate Cleveland’s policy as a whole, but their Urban Agriculture policies are top notch, as is Cleveland’s Hen Keeping Ordinance. What Hen’s in Lakewood proposes is to add; to an already well written ordinance, ways in which Lakewood could control the manner in which a coop and run are set up to include aesthetic value. If you would prefer not to even look at Cleveland’s ordinance, then I could list several hundred other major cities and suburbs that also allow back yard hen-keeping without any major issues.
Also, consider that some of the people opposed to this issue didn’t come to the forum because they may not have wanted to learn any facts, and are comfortable in ignorance based on fear of the unknown. Perhaps some people would prefer to never learn anything new about something they do not understand or agree with. I may be zealous, but that is because I have done my research and I know what I’m talking about.

[Scott Meeson]

I realize you are zealous about this subject, so I am curious as to what you consider a "legitimate" complaint. It seems to me that to a true believer, no complaint could be legitimate.

And I question whether we want to emulate Cleveland, a city so run down that it would seem nothing could decrease their property values. I think most of us would want to distance ourselves from Cleveland, rather then emulate it.

But my main question is who is going to pay for this. With city services already strained, I don't think you can add a department of coop compliance without adding the personnel to staff it, and I would rather see my money going to maintain traditional services and strengthening them where weak; stricter enforcement of property maintenance, for example.

As for informing the community of this proposal, most of what has been done seems to attract only those parties who already have an opinion. I think many people who would oppose this are disinclined to give up the opportunity to do something of interest to them to attend a stacked forum; rather we rely on our representatives to protect our interests.

Well, there was a complaint about a pig which is illegal that had nothing to do with the chickens that were on the property and other than that there have been 0 complaints in three years according to the health dept. Who handles the issue and also would handle chicken issues in Lakewood. The Cuyahoga County Health dept. So…
As for the cost to the city, how much do you think it costs to send letters to properties that abut the property of a person who wants to keep chickens? How much to send someone in housing to check for issues? In fact housing already has a list of 1500 homes in need of repair in Lakewood, how hard is it to cross-check the list and deny a permit. Cleveland has chicken keepers pay a 50 permit fee, couldn’t Lakewood do the same and have some of that go into paying for the service? Another question, how many people do you think are going to undertake the time and expense to even have chickens? Cleveland has about 50 permits and that is out of what? About 500,000 people!? How many out of 52,000 do you think will do this?
That being said, I never said we should emulate Cleveland’s policy as a whole, but their Urban Agriculture policies are top notch, as is Cleveland’s Hen Keeping Ordinance. What Hen’s in Lakewood proposes is to add; to an already well written ordinance, ways in which Lakewood could control the manner in which a coop and run are set up to include aesthetic value. If you would prefer not to even look at Cleveland’s ordinance, then I could list several hundred other major cities and suburbs that also allow back yard hen-keeping without any major issues.
Also, consider that some of the people opposed to this issue didn’t come to the forum because they may not have wanted to learn any facts, and are comfortable in ignorance based on fear of the unknown. Perhaps some people would prefer to never learn anything new about something they do not understand or agree with. I may be zealous, but that is because I have done my research and I know what I’m talking about.

Cherise,

Let's assume that council is looking to pass legislation in favor of urban chicken raising. Would you have issue with legislation (in general) that included the following:

1) All adjacent neighbors must grant permission before an applicant is bestowed the privilege of back yard hen-keeping. (?)

2) Provided all adjacent neighbors have granted permission to the applicant, they must all agree regarding the placement of the coop/pen. (?)


Scott Meeson

[J Hrlec]

I realize you are zealous about this subject, so I am curious as to what you consider a "legitimate" complaint. It seems to me that to a true believer, no complaint could be legitimate.

And I question whether we want to emulate Cleveland, a city so run down that it would seem nothing could decrease their property values. I think most of us would want to distance ourselves from Cleveland, rather then emulate it.

But my main question is who is going to pay for this. With city services already strained, I don't think you can add a department of coop compliance without adding the personnel to staff it, and I would rather see my money going to maintain traditional services and strengthening them where weak; stricter enforcement of property maintenance, for example.

As for informing the community of this proposal, most of what has been done seems to attract only those parties who already have an opinion. I think many people who would oppose this are disinclined to give up the opportunity to do something of interest to them to attend a stacked forum; rather we rely on our representatives to protect our interests.

Well, there was a complaint about a pig which is illegal that had nothing to do with the chickens that were on the property and other than that there have been 0 complaints in three years according to the health dept. Who handles the issue and also would handle chicken issues in Lakewood. The Cuyahoga County Health dept. So…
As for the cost to the city, how much do you think it costs to send letters to properties that abut the property of a person who wants to keep chickens? How much to send someone in housing to check for issues? In fact housing already has a list of 1500 homes in need of repair in Lakewood, how hard is it to cross-check the list and deny a permit. Cleveland has chicken keepers pay a 50 permit fee, couldn’t Lakewood do the same and have some of that go into paying for the service? Another question, how many people do you think are going to undertake the time and expense to even have chickens? Cleveland has about 50 permits and that is out of what? About 500,000 people!? How many out of 52,000 do you think will do this?
That being said, I never said we should emulate Cleveland’s policy as a whole, but their Urban Agriculture policies are top notch, as is Cleveland’s Hen Keeping Ordinance. What Hen’s in Lakewood proposes is to add; to an already well written ordinance, ways in which Lakewood could control the manner in which a coop and run are set up to include aesthetic value. If you would prefer not to even look at Cleveland’s ordinance, then I could list several hundred other major cities and suburbs that also allow back yard hen-keeping without any major issues.
Also, consider that some of the people opposed to this issue didn’t come to the forum because they may not have wanted to learn any facts, and are comfortable in ignorance based on fear of the unknown. Perhaps some people would prefer to never learn anything new about something they do not understand or agree with. I may be zealous, but that is because I have done my research and I know what I’m talking about.

Cherise,

Let's assume that council is looking to pass legislation in favor of urban chicken raising. Would you have issue with legislation (in general) that included the following:

1) All adjacent neighbors must grant permission before an applicant is bestowed the privilege of back yard hen-keeping. (?)

2) Provided all adjacent neighbors have granted permission to the applicant, they must all agree regarding the placement of the coop/pen. (?)


Scott Meeson

Those are great ideas Scott.

Since we're just throwing things out there... how do pro-hen people feel about if a person is cited for violation, they have no more than 1-week to remedy the issue before their ability to raise hens is revoked by the city.

[Cherise Sims]

I’m not sure it would be fair to have all of the adjacent neighbors have to approve and agree. I do think that if there are already problems the city should be made aware of it. Let’s think of it this way: Scenario 1. Joe next door wants chickens, he’s a jerk, but he keeps his home and lawn nice. However, everyone hates him and just say no to get at him. Or they just don't know anything about chickens, so they say no out of some fear.
Scenario 2. Jane next door is a slob, she keeps rusty lawn furniture all over and she looks like she lives in a junk yard. The neighbors get the letter, complain and a city representative investigates the complaint, cites Jane and does NOT issue permit.
I think Scenario 2. Would be the way to go, since it is fair to deny someone something on the basis that they have shown themselves to be unfit for the Privilege. Scenario 1. opens up the possibility of denial based on someones personal issue. Which is exactly what we are fighting against.
After all the ordinance would already include setback limits which means that the coop and run be so many feet away from adjacent neighbors dwelling. 20 feet usually works out well. A super-duper small yard would most likely not qualify. Although I know of people who have had chickens very close to a neighbor’s home and the neighbor not know for years. Remember, we are talking about a few small animals, enclosed in a coop and run, who are not very noisy, and not stinky if even minimum cleaning standards are maintained.
That being said, if someone lets the coop pile up with filth, I think a week is a long time to take those animals away, but yes they should be taken away. Chickens are not so difficult to care for that they should have to live in filth. I don’t think a person who lets the management of their coop get to that point should be allowed to ever care for hens again. Or any other animal for that matter, it’s cruel and the whole point is to avoid the filthy conditions that are prevalent in the commercial poultry industry. And yes, we have already identified several places willing to take in unwanted chickens for food, breeding programs or eggs.

[Peter Grossetti]

@Scott - I don't remember my neighbor asking me permission to put in a swimming pool ... and now I get hear their kids screaming at the top of their lungs for no apparent reason all summer long! I'll take a few hens singing their "egg song" over that ANY DAY!

[Craig Lovejoy]

Hmmm...