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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:17 am
by Bret Callentine
wow, miss a day, miss a lot.

just a thought...

a man walks into a bank, pulls out an AK-47, shoots the teller and takes several thousand dollars. the man gets caught, prosecuted and sent to jail. Before the conclusion of his prison stay, he's given the option of parole that includes terms allowing local police to search his house and his car randomly for the next five years. the man accepts the terms of the parole and leaves prison. for the next year he allows the cops to search his property whenever they arrive, but in year two, he begins to deny them entry. At first the cops are casual and don't press the issue, but after awhile, even the threat of returning him to jail does not sway his resolve. rumors start to circulate that the man is up to no good, yet still when the cops come to his door the next time and are denied entry.

My question, at what point do the Police kick in the door?

Do the results of the concluding search even matter to the overall justification in this case?

the point is this, everyone has a different idea of when or if force is justified.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:27 am
by Bret Callentine
oh and by the way, Ivor, please review the list of UN security council members that voted against military action against Iraq. Then review the list of leaders that received kick backs from the "oil for food" scandal.

I think you'll find the two lists very strangely similar.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:30 pm
by Justine Cooper
Bret Callentine wrote:wow, miss a day, miss a lot.

just a thought...

a man walks into a bank, pulls out an AK-47, shoots the teller and takes several thousand dollars. the man gets caught, prosecuted and sent to jail. Before the conclusion of his prison stay, he's given the option of parole that includes terms allowing local police to search his house and his car randomly for the next five years. the man accepts the terms of the parole and leaves prison. for the next year he allows the cops to search his property whenever they arrive, but in year two, he begins to deny them entry. At first the cops are casual and don't press the issue, but after awhile, even the threat of returning him to jail does not sway his resolve. rumors start to circulate that the man is up to no good, yet still when the cops come to his door the next time and are denied entry.

My question, at what point do the Police kick in the door?

Do the results of the concluding search even matter to the overall justification in this case?

the point is this, everyone has a different idea of when or if force is justified.
You mean like Hitler? Yea everyone has a different idea of force. That is obvious.

Insight from Dali Lama:

"When the days become longer and the there is no more sunshine, the grass becomes fresh and, consequently, we feel very happy. On the other hand, in autumn, one leaf falls down and another leaf falls down. The beautiful plants become as if dead and we do not feel very happy. Why? I think it is because deep down our human nature likes construction, and does not like destruction. Naturally, every action which is destructive is against human nature. Constructiveness is the human way. Therefore, I think that in terms of basic human feeling, violence is not good. Nonviolence is the only way."

What we have done to our service men/women and to Iraq will never be justifiable. Even Saddam admitted he lied about having weapons so that Iran would not attack them. It was not our right or job or responsibility to pretend that we needed to be there because of weapons that were never there. It is the saddest joke in history. They felt they had to pretend they had weapons to defend themselves from being bombed by their neighbor, Iran. And because of that, they got bombed by us. Ironic.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:40 pm
by Justine Cooper
Stephen,
I wish I never turned on the computer today. I felt your bullet even though you aimed it at a young man with a passion that happens to not agree with you. You used the word "hate" and God in the same sentence? I am almost speechless but sure can't turn the computer back off without replying. Ivor came from a country that was bombed so I take his wisdom over "facts" you pull from websites that anyone could have put up.

The fact that his family came from being chased out of their own country into this country and STILL PURCHASED A HOUSE AND WORK IN WHATEVER FIELD THEY CAN DO PAY FOR IT says everything, next to AMERICANS who, according the board and the research OVERWHELMINGLY OVERINDULGE AND THEN WALK AWAY FROM THEIR DEBT. HELLO! We are all immigrants!!!! The difference is, some of us were born into a country where we have always had free will, free speech, and parents that killed themselves to give us everything they never had!!!!

More insight from the Dali Lama: Success is only measured by what we have to give up to get it!"

Ivor gets that. And others sit around judging worrying about one house on their street and how it affects THEIR property value instead of worrying about how the whole city or state or country is affected. That is the difference and we are all framed by our words. I am saddened and shocked and appalled by yours today.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:20 pm
by Stephen Eisel
Justine, the intent of my 12 step post was not hurt Ivor.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:31 pm
by Bret Callentine
the point is this, everyone has a different idea of when or if force is justified.


You mean like Hitler?


If someone tried to harm my children, I would kill them I think, if it meant protecting them.


no, I mean, like EVERYONE.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:52 pm
by Justine Cooper
I hardly think self-defense is in any way a comparison to this war. It was built on lies of "self-defense" but pretty much no one believes that any more, and many never believed it from the start. Iraq did not attack us. We attacked them.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:53 pm
by Justine Cooper
Bret Callentine wrote:
the point is this, everyone has a different idea of when or if force is justified.


You mean like Hitler?


If someone tried to harm my children, I would kill them I think, if it meant protecting them.


no, I mean, like EVERYONE.


In theory and in general that statement may be correct. My guess is that the majority of parents would kill if it meant saving their child. That statement in no way can ever shed light on this war.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:31 pm
by Bret Callentine
That statement in no way can ever shed light on this war.


Are you serious? You mean you really don't see how two people having a difference of opinion as to when and how to use force affects this dialog? You're kidding right?

Try to follow me here...

1. Iraq starts war
2. Iraq accepts terms of cease fire
3. Iraq breaks terms of cease fire
4. cease fire voided, war no longer over

You can argue that we didn't HAVE to invade, but you can't argue that invasion was illegal. They made it legal when they violated the terms of peace. Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting that they made it NECESSARY, just that they made it a valid option.

Can you offer evidence that Iraq DIDN'T violate the terms of the cease fire? No?

Then the next step is to decide when and to what extent force SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be used. And that is where you have to understand that different people have different ideas of WHEN or IF force is called for.

If you can't agree with me on this issue, then there is nothing to discuss

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:35 pm
by Justine Cooper
Bret Callentine wrote:
That statement in no way can ever shed light on this war.


Try to follow me here...


I am sure you get away with talking that condescending other places but I would not follow you or your train of thought, anywhere. There is nothing that you agree on that I agree on. Let's agree on that.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:37 pm
by Justine Cooper
Bret Callentine wrote:
If you can't agree with me on this issue, then there is nothing to discuss

That is the only statement I will ever agree with you on. The argument is played out. Go on with your beliefs and teaching your children and I will go on with my beliefs and teach my children. To think for themselves and not to blindly follow everything the government or a particular religion says. We all have our truth inside of ourselves and can be guided by that truth and our relationship with God, without conforming to the beliefs or demands of others.

So please don't ask me to follow your thoughts.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:00 pm
by ryan costa
Bret Callentine wrote:wow, miss a day, miss a lot.

just a thought...

a man walks into a bank, pulls out an AK-47, shoots the teller and takes several thousand dollars. the man gets caught, prosecuted and sent to jail. Before the conclusion of his prison stay, he's given the option of parole that includes terms allowing local police to search his house and his car randomly for the next five years. the man accepts the terms of the parole and leaves prison. for the next year he allows the cops to search his property whenever they arrive, but in year two, he begins to deny them entry. At first the cops are casual and don't press the issue, but after awhile, even the threat of returning him to jail does not sway his resolve. rumors start to circulate that the man is up to no good, yet still when the cops come to his door the next time and are denied entry.

My question, at what point do the Police kick in the door?

Do the results of the concluding search even matter to the overall justification in this case?

the point is this, everyone has a different idea of when or if force is justified.


This is an invalid analogy. the bank robber doesn't have 20 million people living at home. the police aren't responsible for keeping stability of the people in the home. even if they were, they got no magic democracy stick to wave and turn things all western.

As it is, the first thing the provisional government of liberated Iraq did was reinstate the Sharia! During Saddam Hussein's tenure Iraq was one of the best places in the middle east for muslim high school kids to sneak beers and go on dates. Now they would have to grow up more like Saudi Arabians.

I think it was that Ambassador to the U.N. John bolton who said something like, "That U.N. legal stuff only matters when it let's the U.S. do what it wants. The U.N. exists to legitimize U.S. policy, because we won World War II. We're the sole SuperPower in the world today, even though I don't want to pay WWII taxes, Eisenhower era taxes, or even Nixon era taxes. The Japanese will always loan us a few hundred billion dollars a year at low interest, and China will too so they can compete with Japan. I believe in small government".

Historically there are two reasons to go to war. To defend yourself, or to take someone else's stuff. The latter generally falls under the category of voiding or "renogotiating" treaties. Treaties are sort of like Laws, only it is more acceptable to try to find ways to break them. Of course today things are more complicated: we've got multi-national corporations, complex currency trading, dick cheney, and the need for massive quantities for oil and the ability to pay for it.

Renegotiating treaties is complicated. Before the American Revolution we paid lower taxes and had a higher standard of living than Britain or any of its colonies. But the british had some treaties with the native Americans. Native Americans had the rights to the Northwest Territories. They weren't using it for anything cool like farms, barrel making, whiskey making, mining, or anything. They weren't even very good at fishing from boats, and they probably didn't even want to be Americans. So we cobbled together the arguments for the Revolutionary War. George Washington was a genius: he realized we didn't have to beat the British, just keep an army in the field and occasionally harass the British until they got frustrated and left to concentrate on fighting france and taking over central asia and africa. This is a strategy the insurgents employ today.

After Iraq spent 8 years defending the middle east from Iran all their creditors were after them. After the Gulf War many nations were paying the expenses of the U.S. led multilateral coalition.

The motives of launching a preemptory war are less important than the question of what you can accomplish or get away with. The chaos and sectarian strife following Saddam's ouster has killed more Iraqis than Saddam Hussein ever did, and may destabilize the entire region.

It is a conservative region. After the provisional government reinstated the Sharia we send over Condi Rice to supervise them. It isn't hard to imagine how Iraqis feel at having to negotiate for U.S. handouts with an american woman. It must be a den of cooperation over there.

It is the middle east. You've got to have balls in the middle east. When you do everything the U.S.tells you your rivals will feel bolder, and so will neighboring nations. The cable news can't distinguish between basketball court trash talk and real threats. Otherwise your nation might descend into chaotic sectarian violence.

So, our nation is probably stuck there for a while. The only important thing to do here is vote every one in and affiliated with the Bush administration, and their descendants, out of office for the remainder of human history.