The Observation Deck

Dan Alaimo wrote:Meg,
I appreciate your sensitivity on this, but from what i know of a number of participants in this discussion, we are eligible to take umbrage at Bill's provocative subject line, and instead chose to take it for what it was. Heck, I even had another birthday while it was going on. I don't recall if it occurred to any of us to question it literally. There are some very contentious viewpoints on the pandemic and the quarantine, and I'm glad we had the chance to discuss them civilly. As Gov. Cuomo (the current one) said about conflicting opinions, it's the "sound of America."

Hi Dan,

In this thread, Bill already has admitted he was not "pot stirring" but meant what he wrote. Not sure what you mean by "take it for what it was". It was very clear what the post was and very clear what side some people are on vs others.

Also, very curious if you could cite Gov Cuomo's quote. I did a cursory Google, Bing and Lexis/Nexis search and could not come up of any example where he said anything like "conflicting opinions are the sound of America". Just wondering as so many quotes get attributed to people on the internet that never uttered them (I'm pretty sure Abraham Lincoln said that one).

Mark Kindt wrote:Thank you, Ms. Conant for your voice of reason and calm.

I am disappointed that this thread was started at all. It reads like a script from a Fox News Broadcast and commences with a false, but provocative premise and then lapses into various partisan rants unrelated to Lakewood.

The Moderators might want to consider moving the thread to the Global Discussion thread.

There is increasing pressure to censure the internet and unpopular opinions. These two law professors think the Chinese Fascist Party is on the right track:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... et/610549/

Of course if someone tried to censure their article or prohibit them from having an opinion they would be outraged. It's the other person who should be censured.

That type of thinking is not new. It's only during the last two hundred years or so that the free expression of ideas was incorporated into law and the public conscience. Will constitutional law be one of the casualties of the virus? Time will tell.

I understand that the title of this post make some people uncomfortable. Hard choices are always uncomfortable.

Who gets the heart transplant? Is it the 75 year old or the 20 year old?
If you have enough serum to save 5 people but 10 are sick, who gets saved?
Is triage immoral?

Those choices are made every day. Someone lives and someone dies. That's life. I am just pointing out that in the case of COVID 19 we have made the choice to sacrifice the young. Fifty years ago the choice would have been different.


The pandemic of 1968 killed about 100,000 people. Adjusted for current population it killed about 170,000 people.

What did we do as a people?

People washed their hands, practiced social distancing and used alcohol wipes to clean surfaces. That's it.

They didn't throw 40 million people out of work.
They didn't bankrupt pension plans and 401(k) plans.
They didn't crash the stock market.
They didn't destroy 1 million small businesses.
They didn't throw billions of people into poverty.
They didn't destroy the future of an entire generation.
They didn't drive cities and states into bankruptcy.
They didn't bankrupt universities and colleges.
They didn't send SWAT teams out to arrest people for taking a walk.

The Hong Kong flu was dangerous primarily to people over 65, much like COVID. So in 1968 older people were asked to self isolate. And they did.

I haven't done a study on it but I don't think anyone followed the Cuomo Plan: Isolate the young and healthy and seed nursing homes with people who have the virus.

Like any online forum, I assume that the Deck has an acceptable use policy (somewhere) that we all agreed to and that designated moderators administered that acceptable use policy.

I simply suggested to the moderator(s) that this thread was "global" and not "Lakewood".

My apologies to you, if you thought that my post was in any way intended to censor your post. I thought that its broad scope of morally complex issues made it consonant with the "Global Discussion" forum.

I have since been informed by the Moderator that the "Lakewood General Discussion" Forum is now the primary venue for all posts and that the "Global" category is of marginal use now. If that interpretation is incorrect, the Moderator can advise us.

Bill, I appreciate your support of many of the issues that we have mutually in common with respect to Lakewood.

I remain disappointed that during a time of urgency the citizens of Lakewood find themselves without their longstanding healthcare infrastructure and related funding.

Mark Kindt wrote:Like any online forum, I assume that the Deck has an acceptable use policy (somewhere) that we all agreed to and that designated moderators administered that acceptable use policy.

I simply suggested to the moderator(s) that this thread was "global" and not "Lakewood".

My apologies to you, if you thought that my post was in any way intended to censor your post. I thought that its broad scope of morally complex issues made it consonant with the "Global Discussion" forum.

I have since been informed by the Moderator that the "Lakewood General Discussion" Forum is now the primary venue for all posts and that the "Global" category is of marginal use now. If that interpretation is incorrect, the Moderator can advise us.

Bill, I appreciate your support of many of the issues that we have mutually in common with respect to Lakewood.

I remain disappointed that during a time of urgency the citizens of Lakewood find themselves without their longstanding healthcare infrastructure and related funding.

I don't take any of this personally. No apologies are needed. I understood your point. I used your comment as an opportunity to point out that there is an increasing attempt to stifle free speech.

Lakewood does find itself without adequate healthcare infrastructure. That is because it is the official policy to keep the City without an adequate healthcare infrastructure.

One of the affects of the lock down policy is the bankruptcy of hospitals and medical providers.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/nationa ... t/2412304/

Just how does bankrupting the medical industry save lives?

Bill Call wrote: Just how does bankrupting the medical industry save lives?

And just how does letting everyone go back to business as normal save lives? I don't think there is an easy answer. At all. Either side that claims their side is "right", in my opinion, is not. This is not an either/or issue. It is a gray issue. And the more we dig our heels into one side or the other, the harder (IMHO) it is to get a consensus that makes sense.

Matthew Lee wrote:

Dan Alaimo wrote:Meg,
I appreciate your sensitivity on this, but from what i know of a number of participants in this discussion, we are eligible to take umbrage at Bill's provocative subject line, and instead chose to take it for what it was. Heck, I even had another birthday while it was going on. I don't recall if it occurred to any of us to question it literally. There are some very contentious viewpoints on the pandemic and the quarantine, and I'm glad we had the chance to discuss them civilly. As Gov. Cuomo (the current one) said about conflicting opinions, it's the "sound of America."

Hi Dan,

In this thread, Bill already has admitted he was not "pot stirring" but meant what he wrote. Not sure what you mean by "take it for what it was". It was very clear what the post was and very clear what side some people are on vs others.

Also, very curious if you could cite Gov Cuomo's quote. I did a cursory Google, Bing and Lexis/Nexis search and could not come up of any example where he said anything like "conflicting opinions are the sound of America". Just wondering as so many quotes get attributed to people on the internet that never uttered them (I'm pretty sure Abraham Lincoln said that one).

First of all, Gov, Cuomo: it was during the press questions of one of his daily press briefings which have occurred daily since the "New York on Pause" order - a nice piece of Cuomo word-smithing for shelter-in-place-came down - roughly 2-plus months ago. That's a lot of YouTube minutes, and I didn't note the date or time. It struck me because of what we do here in Lakewood but otherwise was something of a throwaway line for him in response to a question about the protesters who were quite audible outside the room in the governor's mansion where the press conference was being held. No surprise that no one else picked it up. I don't think there are transcripts. I was impressed that he said that instead of "shut up" or "get 'em out of here" or "you're fake news."

If you are determined to track it down, it was somewhere in the middle of the briefings and somewhere in the middle of a Q&A session of one. And if you find out, I'd like to know because I will likely use the quote again. They are all on YouTube. This is the second time I've used it here, although the first time with attribution.

It speaks very directly to those who would cast aspersions on the LO project and specifically the Deck. Yes, we are part if the sound of America. And I will go further, those who seek to silence that sound are behaving in a profoundly un-American way.

Matthew Lee wrote:

Dan Alaimo wrote:Meg,
I appreciate your sensitivity on this, but from what i know of a number of participants in this discussion, we are eligible to take umbrage at Bill's provocative subject line, and instead chose to take it for what it was. Heck, I even had another birthday while it was going on. I don't recall if it occurred to any of us to question it literally. There are some very contentious viewpoints on the pandemic and the quarantine, and I'm glad we had the chance to discuss them civilly. As Gov. Cuomo (the current one) said about conflicting opinions, it's the "sound of America."

Hi Dan,

In this thread, Bill already has admitted he was not "pot stirring" but meant what he wrote. Not sure what you mean by "take it for what it was". It was very clear what the post was and very clear what side some people are on vs others.

Also, very curious if you could cite Gov Cuomo's quote. I did a cursory Google, Bing and Lexis/Nexis search and could not come up of any example where he said anything like "conflicting opinions are the sound of America". Just wondering as so many quotes get attributed to people on the internet that never uttered them (I'm pretty sure Abraham Lincoln said that one).

Now on Bill's subject line: I chose not to believe it because to do so would invite a discussion of the "E" word: eugenics. And the "E" word leads to a four letter "N" word which has proven to kill civil discussions. As is, I think this has been a very good for discussion purposes.

So, sorry Bill, I did not take your subject line entirely seriously although I accept your other points as discussion worthy.
I continue to think that no economic price is worth a human life. Period. Our personal dialog really can't go very far, but I hope you continue to pursue it with others on the Deck.

If anyone were to pursue my opinion, you would find that I have had it for quite some time, long before I entered the Covid-19 Red Zone. And if you pursued it some more, you might find it connected to a "C" word which would lead to many, many tangential discussions that have no place here right now.

I now think this thread has the wrong name.

Perhaps destroy it all so 10% can make money.

It was heart warming to see Father John Jenkins, the President of Notre Dame speaking on how they are preparing Notre Dame for this for this year's students and how much care they are putting into every part of it.

What re you going to do when the students are socializing? FJJF "The details we will be working out, it is all developing."

Why not get the details in place before school starts? FJJF "We are confident we have the infrastructure. We are going to work on that in the next few months. We will be ready."

If there is an out break do you have a plan. FJJF "What we have are facilities for quarantining. Some students may get COVID. For young people this is not a highly dangerous disease. Most will not even show symptoms. That we can manage. Now if it overwhelms us then we will develop a plan. Of course it that happens it will be a national problem.

Football - $$$ FJJF "There is a number of issues, starting with the team. The team itself we can manage. What bout the people in the stands. We have an 85,000 seat stadium will we be able to fill it? That is tough to say? Half way, 15,000? We are developing a plan."

Now if anyone can say "It is up to God" I am sure Notre Dame has a true piece of that comment.

However, this looks the other way on how COVID-19 operates, and spreads.

A single thought has been in my head for about 3 weeks, and when I heard it it was sobering. All of this started with one case in Wuhan, China, what are the chances something more than the common cold, but related to it, can shut down where we live?

The more they study, the bigger the monster COVID-19 becomes. It has options no other virus has had. DNA check in replication so when the structure is wrong, it corrects it in the next jump. Not strong enough to bring the subject down? It recombines in various structures to work around it. I have a friend that contacted it back in the beginning of February. After being diagnosed and admitted, after 2 weeks they were cleared and tested negative and sent home. 2 weeks late he returned with blood clots in his lungs forming and readmitted. Again fixed tested and sent home. Last week they were back in the hospital, with damage showing up in other organs.

This 2.4 weeks in ICU was brought on by a chance counter with someone they do not know.

It is worse in every way than the FLU, and much more contagious.

Have fun at the bar kids. I'll be on the porch.


.

Notre Dame and other colleges and universities don’t want to lose all the tuition and housing money and, god forbid, the revenue from sports.

Sacrificing the kids for money.

No doubt about it because online is possible but parents and students don’t want to pay the big buck if they are working from home and they already made that clear.

I’ve pointed out before that this virus is quite unlike other respiratory viruses, which infect only the respiratory system. SARS Cov-2 has been found in the heart, kidney, liver, and now in the brain. No other cold or flu virus does this.

Does it remain there dormant? No one knows.
Does it come out of dormancy later to reinfect, like varicella, that reactivates as shingles?
Is it oncogenic, like HPV that causes, among others, cervical cancer?

We have NO idea what long lasting damage this virus may cause.

Do you really want your kids to be infected?

Lots of articles on this in med journals already, but this is just a general view:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latime ... f_amp=true

Joe Rogan and his podcast friends will sort all this out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KluBn073YjY

Coronavirus Pandemic (COVID-19) Updates Explained Clearly (by Roger Seheult, M.D.)

On YouTube (less than 12 minutes long): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01Rftnxbi6w
or

Same video on MedCram (but you must "Enroll for Free" to view on their site):
https://www.medcram.com/courses/coronav ... -treatment
Register. Then go to Update # 73.

Some good news for a change!

(If you haven't watched one of these, please keep your ill-informed opinion about it to yourself. An open mind is all I ask of you.)


Disclaimer: No one is taking medical advice from YouTube. They're just the messenger. And you know what they say...

Don Schmitz wrote:Coronavirus Pandemic (COVID-19) Updates Explained Clearly (by Roger Seheult, M.D.)

On YouTube (less than 12 minutes long): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01Rftnxbi6w
or

Same video on MedCram (but you must "Enroll for Free" to view on their site):
https://www.medcram.com/courses/coronav ... -treatment
Register. Then go to Update # 73.

Some good news for a change!

(If you haven't watched one of these, please keep your ill-informed opinion about it to yourself. An open mind is all I ask of you.)


Disclaimer: No one is taking medical advice from YouTube. They're just the messenger. And you know what they say...

Don

Thank you for posting. It is good news. The case studies are small but the findings look good at putting minds at ease.

It made complete sense why my friend would test positive, negative, then positive.

As you said good news for a change, and every time we can stop worrying about something it is a better day.

Thanks again, I have added it to the COVID-19 page.

.

Awhile ago, i saw a post by a doctor complaining about the number of posts out there that were YouTube only and asking that they be summarized in print as the key points can be absorbed so much quicker and easier. I second that motion. There are a lot of YouTube vids out there and with few exceptions, they probably can be summarized, saving much time and making the difference between viewing or not.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:I now think this thread has the wrong name.

Perhaps destroy it all so 10% can make money.

I've had a problem with a name since the beginning, but there's no denying it's become one of the most active threads in recent memory. So thank you Bill, and while I personally disagree with you, please don't take that as any kind of effort to shut you down.

I have another point relevant to all this, and possibly unpopular. The coronavirus is something big, worldwide and unseen. Its consequences include inconveniences to modern life. Certain people will never believe in it until it directly affects them. I would liken them to virus atheists. I'm not saying the virus is God or any related spiritual entity, but merely relating those who don't believe in something unseen to spiritual unbelievers. This is a little odd because, in this case, science is on the side of the covid believers.