Mike:
I live and learn by direct experience and interaction with others. Therefore, I don’t believe it is legitimate to claim “fake outrage†for actual feelings that American Indian poet friends – Carroll Arnett and Maurice Kenny - expressed to me over Chief Wahoo years ago. They spoke and objected with sincerity to Chief Wahoo; I heard. There was no “fake outrage.â€Â
In my limited conversations and friendships I learned, furthermore, there is a range of positions within the Native American community about the name and the logo.
Arnett, for example, had no objection to the name Indians. He felt our unnecessary emotional attachment to the exaggerated visage harmed the self-image of American Indian children. He spoke with authority, concern and reason.
Chief Wahoo is a stinging image that nourishes disrespect and disregard for the primacy of American Indian feelings in this matter.
Sure it is only human to seek primacy over the meaning of the image. Chief Wahoo is a sign loaded with divisions, nostalgia and limits.
Having listened to these poet friends, I have believed for quite some time that Chief Wahoo has got to go.
Incidentally, on October 21, 1997, I received by mail a copy of Maurice Kenny’s book of essays, Backward to Forward, with a cover photo of Black Kettle and Chiefs, and at 7:15 p.m. Claudia Arnett, the widow of Carroll Arnett/Gogisgi, called to say he had passed from earth on July 2. Her words that described the funeral remain etched on my mind:
“There was a drum. The people danced. We looked in the sky and saw an eagle.â€Â
That Gogisgi’s widow would shoot the arrow of truth my way when the heartbreaking series against the Marlins was about to commence added a deep symbolic layer to my understanding of the moral order obscured by the stinging image.
Chief Wahoo has got to go.
Kenneth Warren
Opening Day (sort of)
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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Kenneth Warren
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Dee Martinez
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Mike Deneen
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"Fake outrage" is very real.
Don't believe me?
Turn on Fox News or any conservative media outlet and listen to the Rosie O'Donell discussion.
Are there a some people around the nation that are offended by her claims that 9/11 was a setup? Sure, I'm sure there are some.
However, the GOP sound machine is full swing trying to trump up outrage to get her off the air. This "controversy" conveniently takes attention from all of Bush's problems, such as Iraq, gonzales, Walter Reed, etc.
Ken, if your friends are offended by Chief Wahoo, I have a radically simple solution for them: don't buy any merchandise, don't go to games, and don't watch on TV. It's the magic of free enterprise.
Next time you see your friends, ask them if they are offended by Whittier College's nickname. It is the Poets. (fun fact: Richard Nixon played football there)
Don't believe me?
Turn on Fox News or any conservative media outlet and listen to the Rosie O'Donell discussion.
Are there a some people around the nation that are offended by her claims that 9/11 was a setup? Sure, I'm sure there are some.
However, the GOP sound machine is full swing trying to trump up outrage to get her off the air. This "controversy" conveniently takes attention from all of Bush's problems, such as Iraq, gonzales, Walter Reed, etc.
Ken, if your friends are offended by Chief Wahoo, I have a radically simple solution for them: don't buy any merchandise, don't go to games, and don't watch on TV. It's the magic of free enterprise.
Next time you see your friends, ask them if they are offended by Whittier College's nickname. It is the Poets. (fun fact: Richard Nixon played football there)
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Kenneth Warren
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Kenneth Warren
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Mike:
I am not talking about Fox television. I am saying that fake outrage cannot be imposed on all people who object to Chief Wahoo.
Your free enterprise solution does little to assuage the damage, Gogisgi believed, the logo does to the self image of American Indian children.
Blow off these feelings with free enterprise bravado.
The words objecting to the logo were spoken to me by quality individuals with skin and psyches in the game of the damaging sign play.
Kenneth Warren
I am not talking about Fox television. I am saying that fake outrage cannot be imposed on all people who object to Chief Wahoo.
Your free enterprise solution does little to assuage the damage, Gogisgi believed, the logo does to the self image of American Indian children.
Blow off these feelings with free enterprise bravado.
The words objecting to the logo were spoken to me by quality individuals with skin and psyches in the game of the damaging sign play.
Kenneth Warren
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Mike Deneen
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Kenneth Warren
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Lynn Farris
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Mike, please, let's not put any store into what Fox news does or doesn't do. Yes, I'm sure you are right, they have manufactured fake outrage against Rosie. And many of the news stations have pretended that Anna Nicole's death and Brittany Spears haircut and rehab is more important news that what really affects peoples lives around the world.
But I have to side with Ken and Brian here. If Chief Wahoo is ofensive to many people, why not change to logo? It would give the baseball team an opportunity to sell all new T-shirts, hats ect with the new logo? It would be a win/win situation. The other team names you bring up don't seem to have people that take offense to them to the same degree. In fact, I haven't seen or heard of one protest about the Fighting Irish or the logo - have you? If it were offensive to the Irish population and they spoke out about it - I think Notre Dame would have had the wisdom to alter it. JMHO
BTW, my favorite team name is University of California Santa Cruz - the slugs!!!
But I have to side with Ken and Brian here. If Chief Wahoo is ofensive to many people, why not change to logo? It would give the baseball team an opportunity to sell all new T-shirts, hats ect with the new logo? It would be a win/win situation. The other team names you bring up don't seem to have people that take offense to them to the same degree. In fact, I haven't seen or heard of one protest about the Fighting Irish or the logo - have you? If it were offensive to the Irish population and they spoke out about it - I think Notre Dame would have had the wisdom to alter it. JMHO
BTW, my favorite team name is University of California Santa Cruz - the slugs!!!
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." ~ George Carlin
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DougHuntingdon
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Lynn
Last I checked, Chief Wahoo was one of the most valuable logos/mascots in all of sports according to many sources, including this one:
http://www.articlestree.com/recreation- ... 57216.html
So, the Indians owners probably are not that inclined to actually change it if they feel they are going to be hit into the pocketbook. Hypothetically they would change it if they thought they would make more money on thew new logo - or perhaps they could make more money by selling stuff with the new logo AND the old logo simultaneously.
Doug
Last I checked, Chief Wahoo was one of the most valuable logos/mascots in all of sports according to many sources, including this one:
http://www.articlestree.com/recreation- ... 57216.html
So, the Indians owners probably are not that inclined to actually change it if they feel they are going to be hit into the pocketbook. Hypothetically they would change it if they thought they would make more money on thew new logo - or perhaps they could make more money by selling stuff with the new logo AND the old logo simultaneously.
Doug
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Mike Deneen
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Lynn-
So if something is "offensive to many people", then it should be eliminated?
By your measure, Rosie O'Donnell should be fired. She is clearly considered to be "offensive to many people", so why not change her?
Who is deciding what constitutes "many people"?
And who decides what is "offensive"? Only racial issues? Sex? What about political views?
Regarding the Indians, like every team they already offer numerous versions of their merchandise. This is not a political decision, but a greed decision.....by offering numerous variations of hats, shirts, sweaters, etc. they maximize profit by getting many folks to buy multiple items.
Many of these items are made in hideous sweat shops by underpaid, exploited foreigners, but of course noone cares about that. Folks are more willing to protest what is ON the merchandise than to protest the working conditions that went INTO the merchandise.
So if something is "offensive to many people", then it should be eliminated?
By your measure, Rosie O'Donnell should be fired. She is clearly considered to be "offensive to many people", so why not change her?
Who is deciding what constitutes "many people"?
And who decides what is "offensive"? Only racial issues? Sex? What about political views?
Regarding the Indians, like every team they already offer numerous versions of their merchandise. This is not a political decision, but a greed decision.....by offering numerous variations of hats, shirts, sweaters, etc. they maximize profit by getting many folks to buy multiple items.
Many of these items are made in hideous sweat shops by underpaid, exploited foreigners, but of course noone cares about that. Folks are more willing to protest what is ON the merchandise than to protest the working conditions that went INTO the merchandise.
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Lynn Farris
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Wow! This topic is really hot.
1) Mike you are right, just because something outrageus people doesn't mean it has to be gotten rid of. We have free speech in this country and people like Rush Limbaugh and Rosy O'Donnell have a right to express themselves. Sometimes it is the extremes that really make us think. So I'm not upset by that.
I just learned in Spanish that the reason the Chevy Nova didn't sell in Latin America very well is that the name of the car means no go in Spanish - who would want to buy a car that was named no go? Therefore marketers should pay attention to these cultural things that are important. Maybe marketers don't think that Native Americans are a culture they care about upseting, because they aren't spending money in big enough dollar amounts - but as a culture do we really want to perpetuate cultural, racial, sexist stereotypes? That is what the Indian Management should be asking themselves and we as consumers should decide whether we want to purchase from a company that does. And Doug is right, the easy place to make the point is in the pocket book. If these stereotypes are selling - well then maybe it indicates how seriously we haven't learned that what we did in colonialization is wrong.
In fact, I have two different somewhat funny stories about this?
Once when I was arguing against eminent domain saying that taking property from one person to give to another is un-American - a distinguished gentleman from this city, who we all know and love, defended it saying that it was extremely American- that is how we got the property in the first place from the Indians.
I also heard from Pat Buchanan the other night on the McLaughlin group about immigration, he was asked to name a group where the immigration policy or lack of it really hurt a country and he brought up the Native Americans. (actually his point could have been made with any of the Colonized countries.)
2) I do care very much about the slave-like sweat shop conditions in which many of these clothes are produced. I posted a whole topic If you aren't outraged you aren't paying attention. This is about the Northern Marianas Islandshttp://lakewoodobserver.com/forum/viewt ... +attention I have contacted every name on the list trying to get hearings about this outrage that is being perpetuated on the American people. Please read this article and call - the Democrats have a chance to have some real reform here. This is one of the topics that Fox News should be covering instead of Brittany and Anna.
3) In my list of things that I am most worried about in our city, our state and our nation, I'll admit Chief Wahoo isn't on the radar.
1) Mike you are right, just because something outrageus people doesn't mean it has to be gotten rid of. We have free speech in this country and people like Rush Limbaugh and Rosy O'Donnell have a right to express themselves. Sometimes it is the extremes that really make us think. So I'm not upset by that.
I just learned in Spanish that the reason the Chevy Nova didn't sell in Latin America very well is that the name of the car means no go in Spanish - who would want to buy a car that was named no go? Therefore marketers should pay attention to these cultural things that are important. Maybe marketers don't think that Native Americans are a culture they care about upseting, because they aren't spending money in big enough dollar amounts - but as a culture do we really want to perpetuate cultural, racial, sexist stereotypes? That is what the Indian Management should be asking themselves and we as consumers should decide whether we want to purchase from a company that does. And Doug is right, the easy place to make the point is in the pocket book. If these stereotypes are selling - well then maybe it indicates how seriously we haven't learned that what we did in colonialization is wrong.
In fact, I have two different somewhat funny stories about this?
Once when I was arguing against eminent domain saying that taking property from one person to give to another is un-American - a distinguished gentleman from this city, who we all know and love, defended it saying that it was extremely American- that is how we got the property in the first place from the Indians.
I also heard from Pat Buchanan the other night on the McLaughlin group about immigration, he was asked to name a group where the immigration policy or lack of it really hurt a country and he brought up the Native Americans. (actually his point could have been made with any of the Colonized countries.)
2) I do care very much about the slave-like sweat shop conditions in which many of these clothes are produced. I posted a whole topic If you aren't outraged you aren't paying attention. This is about the Northern Marianas Islandshttp://lakewoodobserver.com/forum/viewt ... +attention I have contacted every name on the list trying to get hearings about this outrage that is being perpetuated on the American people. Please read this article and call - the Democrats have a chance to have some real reform here. This is one of the topics that Fox News should be covering instead of Brittany and Anna.
3) In my list of things that I am most worried about in our city, our state and our nation, I'll admit Chief Wahoo isn't on the radar.
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." ~ George Carlin
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Mike Deneen
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Brian Pedaci
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Mike, this has already been explained a couple of times here, but let me try to restate it for your benefit because you don't seem to be getting the message. Everybody agrees that it's Mr. Dolan's prerogative to keep the team name and logo. The protesters have the right to peaceably assemble and try to raise awareness that "hey, the logo really isn't OK with us". Even a white guy like me can express their dissatisfaction with the insensitivity of a caricature like Wahoo. That's my right, right? Hopefully, with enough reasoned discussion like this, enough minds can be changed so that the free-market pressure will convince the ownership that a change will, in fact, be in their best interest. The problem is, of course, that there's a base of fans who have been extremely vocal on the subject of keeping the logo. I question whether their feelings on the subject are as intense as you often hear on internet bulletin boards - threatening to never attend another game, etc. etc. If they were such rabid fans, I hardly think a change of logo could inspire such betrayal.
Doug, I don't believe that the value is in the Wahoo logo itself. You'll find that, over the past 10 years, that the number of team shop items that feature the Wahoo logo has been going down. Have you not noticed the increasing prevalence of just the "Indians" script or even just "Cleveland"?
The link you provided is no more authoritative than this post itself - it's an opinion piece from a magazine. The best-selling merchandise for the NBA is Cavs gear. Is it because people really love the name of the team? Of course not - it's because they identify with a player. Is the Wahoo a good-selling logo because it's inherently popular, or is it a default of rabid, mass-consuming Cleveland fans - the same ones who sold out the stadium for so long? If anyone can point me to a source for that oft-quoted factoid about Wahoo being a top-selling logo (preferably one that doesn't come from a year right after we were in a World Series), I'd appreciate it as Google is not very helpful on the subject. I'd be willing to bet that we're no longer as hot-selling as we once were.
If Dolan was really savvy, he'd announce that he was commissioning a new logo from Native American tribes, and that he was splitting the profits of logowear sales with them. End of controversy.
Doug, I don't believe that the value is in the Wahoo logo itself. You'll find that, over the past 10 years, that the number of team shop items that feature the Wahoo logo has been going down. Have you not noticed the increasing prevalence of just the "Indians" script or even just "Cleveland"?
The link you provided is no more authoritative than this post itself - it's an opinion piece from a magazine. The best-selling merchandise for the NBA is Cavs gear. Is it because people really love the name of the team? Of course not - it's because they identify with a player. Is the Wahoo a good-selling logo because it's inherently popular, or is it a default of rabid, mass-consuming Cleveland fans - the same ones who sold out the stadium for so long? If anyone can point me to a source for that oft-quoted factoid about Wahoo being a top-selling logo (preferably one that doesn't come from a year right after we were in a World Series), I'd appreciate it as Google is not very helpful on the subject. I'd be willing to bet that we're no longer as hot-selling as we once were.
If Dolan was really savvy, he'd announce that he was commissioning a new logo from Native American tribes, and that he was splitting the profits of logowear sales with them. End of controversy.
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Mark Crnolatas
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...
It seems almost everyone has an outrage against something someone else thinks is fantastic. I would suppose that is some sort of balance in nature, or a lot of people with too much empty time on their hands. I'm not sure which.
Mark Allan Crnolatas
No matter what statement you make about anything, there is always someone that is prepared to state that your original statement is erroneous.
Mark Allan Crnolatas
No matter what statement you make about anything, there is always someone that is prepared to state that your original statement is erroneous.
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DougHuntingdon
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If Dolan was really savvy, he'd announce that he was commissioning a new logo from Native American tribes, and that he was splitting the profits of logowear sales with them. End of controversy.
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This sounds like extortion. Do you work for AIM?
Maybe Jesse Jackson could threaten to sue Dolan for not having enough blacks on the roster. Then, if Dolan donates to Rainbow/PUSH, there will be no lawsuit. Didn't this happen to MBNA before it was sold?
For the record I could care less about the Indians as a team. I don't see what all the fuss is about from a fan perspective. Same goes for the Cavs - but I have a problem with the radical Indian extremists
Doug
If Dolan was really savvy, he'd announce that he was commissioning a new logo from Native American tribes, and that he was splitting the profits of logowear sales with them. End of controversy.
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This sounds like extortion. Do you work for AIM?
Maybe Jesse Jackson could threaten to sue Dolan for not having enough blacks on the roster. Then, if Dolan donates to Rainbow/PUSH, there will be no lawsuit. Didn't this happen to MBNA before it was sold?
For the record I could care less about the Indians as a team. I don't see what all the fuss is about from a fan perspective. Same goes for the Cavs - but I have a problem with the radical Indian extremists
Doug