BTW, who is the brain donor that drew up the baseball schedule?
The Mariners and Angels play in Cleveland in early April. I think the Mariners have a retractable dome, and I bet there is no snow in Anaheim this week.
Opening Day (sort of)
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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Mike Deneen
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Ivor Karabatkovic
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Gary Rice
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Mike and Doug,
To be totally honest, during many of the Christmas and Easter parties that we put on for Native American children in Cleveland, I did see some "Cleveland Indians" hats and logos in evidence among the children, over the years.
Some Native Americans apparently, have no problem at all with the logo.
As for myself, I was frankly ambivalent about it all, until I started working with the Intertribal Association many years ago. Even then, I could not imagine at first, why all the upset?
My initial reaction was probably not too different from some of yours.
Over time, I came to realize why this continues to be a difficult issue for those in the Native American community.
Imagine, if you will, a team supposedly representing any other racial group, and you might better understand some of the feelings involved.
For anyone wanting to learn more about Native American perspectives, they might go to the following site: http://www.committee500years.com/
Happy Easter everyone!
To be totally honest, during many of the Christmas and Easter parties that we put on for Native American children in Cleveland, I did see some "Cleveland Indians" hats and logos in evidence among the children, over the years.
Some Native Americans apparently, have no problem at all with the logo.
As for myself, I was frankly ambivalent about it all, until I started working with the Intertribal Association many years ago. Even then, I could not imagine at first, why all the upset?
My initial reaction was probably not too different from some of yours.
Over time, I came to realize why this continues to be a difficult issue for those in the Native American community.
Imagine, if you will, a team supposedly representing any other racial group, and you might better understand some of the feelings involved.
For anyone wanting to learn more about Native American perspectives, they might go to the following site: http://www.committee500years.com/
Happy Easter everyone!
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Mike Deneen
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Gary, we don't have to "suppose" a team representing a different ethnic community.
Lots of them already exist:
Notre Dame Fighting Irish (actually, Gary, "they" were named by an angry mob of Northwestern fans in the late 19th century....the Chicago crowd yelled "kill the irish, kill the irish")
Minnesota Vikings
Our forgotten little CSU Vikings
Michigan State Spartans (as seen in that bloodthirsty movie)
USC Trojans
Boston Celtics
Iona Gaels
Wooster Fighting Scots
Louisiana-Lafayette Rajin' Cajuns (one of my favorites)
Plus, there are tons of teams named after figures from the old west:
Lakewood Rangers (whoever ranged in Lakewood?)
Texas Rangers
New York Rangers
Dallas Cowboys
Oklahoma Sooners
San Francisco 49ers
Denver Pioneers
Portland TrailBlazers
Some of the Native protestors claim desecration of their religion, and claim that noone would ever exploit Christianity
New Orleans Saints
Los Angeles/California/Anaheim Angels (also exploited into a movie by "those damn Hollywood liberals" that Fox news hates so much....except, of course, when they are from Fox studios.)
San Diego Padres (also counts as a hispanic name)
Duke Blue Devils
New Jersey Devils
Depaul Blue Demons
Holy Cross Crusaders
This entire issue is a classic example of "fake outrage" designed to fundraise and inflame the base. Just like John Kerry's botched joke before the election.
Lots of them already exist:
Notre Dame Fighting Irish (actually, Gary, "they" were named by an angry mob of Northwestern fans in the late 19th century....the Chicago crowd yelled "kill the irish, kill the irish")
Minnesota Vikings
Our forgotten little CSU Vikings
Michigan State Spartans (as seen in that bloodthirsty movie)
USC Trojans
Boston Celtics
Iona Gaels
Wooster Fighting Scots
Louisiana-Lafayette Rajin' Cajuns (one of my favorites)
Plus, there are tons of teams named after figures from the old west:
Lakewood Rangers (whoever ranged in Lakewood?)
Texas Rangers
New York Rangers
Dallas Cowboys
Oklahoma Sooners
San Francisco 49ers
Denver Pioneers
Portland TrailBlazers
Some of the Native protestors claim desecration of their religion, and claim that noone would ever exploit Christianity
New Orleans Saints
Los Angeles/California/Anaheim Angels (also exploited into a movie by "those damn Hollywood liberals" that Fox news hates so much....except, of course, when they are from Fox studios.)
San Diego Padres (also counts as a hispanic name)
Duke Blue Devils
New Jersey Devils
Depaul Blue Demons
Holy Cross Crusaders
This entire issue is a classic example of "fake outrage" designed to fundraise and inflame the base. Just like John Kerry's botched joke before the election.
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Gary Rice
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Mike,
Excellent post! Your knowledge regarding sports teams is just amazing.
Unfortunately, I must disagree in this particular case (Native Americans)with your opinion that:
"This entire issue is a classic example of "fake outrage" designed to fundraise and inflame the base."
I've seen the real outrage about this issue, with my own eyes.
I would simply suggest regarding your examples, that there is a context missing in the case of Native American logos.
A context concerning what happened to them in history.
Consider the following excerpts regarding Native Americans, from Hardesty's 1886 "Military History of Ohio"
"These invaders are now being driven westward by the march of civilization and as years roll on they will doubtless be blotted from the face of the earth, as their numbers are being rapidly diminished. Is it but a just act of retaliation, ordained by an all-wise Providence?"
"all attempts at civilization have proved abortive",
"Their nature cannot be changed"
And fair-minded people can honestly think that their outrage is fake?
Excellent post! Your knowledge regarding sports teams is just amazing.
Unfortunately, I must disagree in this particular case (Native Americans)with your opinion that:
"This entire issue is a classic example of "fake outrage" designed to fundraise and inflame the base."
I've seen the real outrage about this issue, with my own eyes.
I would simply suggest regarding your examples, that there is a context missing in the case of Native American logos.
A context concerning what happened to them in history.
Consider the following excerpts regarding Native Americans, from Hardesty's 1886 "Military History of Ohio"
"These invaders are now being driven westward by the march of civilization and as years roll on they will doubtless be blotted from the face of the earth, as their numbers are being rapidly diminished. Is it but a just act of retaliation, ordained by an all-wise Providence?"
"all attempts at civilization have proved abortive",
"Their nature cannot be changed"
And fair-minded people can honestly think that their outrage is fake?
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DougHuntingdon
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><><><>This entire issue is a classic example of "fake outrage" designed to fundraise and inflame the base.><><><>
Mike hit the nail on the head. AIM (American Indian Movement, not AOL's instant messenger) and other fringe radical groups are behind this. They would rather spend time on a cartoon character, since apparently (?!?!) there is no longer any problem of alcoholism, unemployment, poverty, poor education, or living conditions that contribute to the hunta virus.
These groups like AIM are taking advantage of the over-romanticization of Indians spread by propaganda in schools, the Boy Scouts, and the media. The Indians are actually one of the luckiest groups of conquered people in the history of the world. If the Indians would have defeated the white man, would they would have given him his own land and let him have his own sovereignty? Would they let him operate businesses tax free while selling stuff to Indians? Would they set up The Bureau of White Man Affairs and spend hundreds of millions or billions on welfare? Would they let him operate casinos serving Indian customers while Indians were not allowed to run casinos? I'm sorry there were trails of tears, but that's better than getting scalped! What about Indian nations who attacked other Indian nations violently? I guess that was ok? What about the Indians who would strip anything of value from a piece of land and then move on?
This doesn't just happen with Indians. You will have Al Sharpton types worried more about a rebel flag bumper sticker on a high school senior's car in the school parking lot in Mississippi than about all the blacks who are being murdered largely by other blacks. When's the last time a black was killed in the name of the Klan? 10 years ago in Texas?
Doug
Mike hit the nail on the head. AIM (American Indian Movement, not AOL's instant messenger) and other fringe radical groups are behind this. They would rather spend time on a cartoon character, since apparently (?!?!) there is no longer any problem of alcoholism, unemployment, poverty, poor education, or living conditions that contribute to the hunta virus.
These groups like AIM are taking advantage of the over-romanticization of Indians spread by propaganda in schools, the Boy Scouts, and the media. The Indians are actually one of the luckiest groups of conquered people in the history of the world. If the Indians would have defeated the white man, would they would have given him his own land and let him have his own sovereignty? Would they let him operate businesses tax free while selling stuff to Indians? Would they set up The Bureau of White Man Affairs and spend hundreds of millions or billions on welfare? Would they let him operate casinos serving Indian customers while Indians were not allowed to run casinos? I'm sorry there were trails of tears, but that's better than getting scalped! What about Indian nations who attacked other Indian nations violently? I guess that was ok? What about the Indians who would strip anything of value from a piece of land and then move on?
This doesn't just happen with Indians. You will have Al Sharpton types worried more about a rebel flag bumper sticker on a high school senior's car in the school parking lot in Mississippi than about all the blacks who are being murdered largely by other blacks. When's the last time a black was killed in the name of the Klan? 10 years ago in Texas?
Doug
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Mike Deneen
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Well, Doug, the righties are the kings of fake outrage.
Liberals perfected the art of "victimization" during the 1970s.
Liberals used to stand for personal empowerment.....during the labor movement of the 30s and the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s. It was about individuals standing up and being proud (My favorite civil rights sign simply said "I am a man"). During the 1970s, it became increasingly shiek to present yourself as a weak "victim of society". If you had a problem, it was no longer your fault....it was "the system".
Conservatives picked up the "victim" playbook and now brilliantly use it against liberals.
The entire right wing sound machine (Fox News, conservative talk radio, Washington Times, etc.) is predicated on the notion that white christians are victims of immigrants, liberals, gays, intellectuals, foreigners, seculars, etc. The fact that a majority of nation is straight, white and (so-called) christian is irrelevant.
Boutique issues such as Chief Wahoo play right into the right wing talking points.
BTW, why is Lakewood High called the Rangers?
Liberals perfected the art of "victimization" during the 1970s.
Liberals used to stand for personal empowerment.....during the labor movement of the 30s and the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s. It was about individuals standing up and being proud (My favorite civil rights sign simply said "I am a man"). During the 1970s, it became increasingly shiek to present yourself as a weak "victim of society". If you had a problem, it was no longer your fault....it was "the system".
Conservatives picked up the "victim" playbook and now brilliantly use it against liberals.
The entire right wing sound machine (Fox News, conservative talk radio, Washington Times, etc.) is predicated on the notion that white christians are victims of immigrants, liberals, gays, intellectuals, foreigners, seculars, etc. The fact that a majority of nation is straight, white and (so-called) christian is irrelevant.
Boutique issues such as Chief Wahoo play right into the right wing talking points.
BTW, why is Lakewood High called the Rangers?
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Stan Austin
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Lakewood High is called the Rangers because all the good names were already taken up by the City of Cleveland schools.
East Tech Scarabs---tough
John Marshall Lawyers- cerebral if not repetitive
Compare those names with Rocky River Pirates -- stupid and cartoonish
Solon Comets--much too faddish although the Jetsons are making a comeback
Or, the slightly perverse, such as animals like---- let me think here a minute---- something? Eagles?
East Tech Scarabs---tough
John Marshall Lawyers- cerebral if not repetitive
Compare those names with Rocky River Pirates -- stupid and cartoonish
Solon Comets--much too faddish although the Jetsons are making a comeback
Or, the slightly perverse, such as animals like---- let me think here a minute---- something? Eagles?
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DougHuntingdon
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Well the other side would state it the exact opposite...that immigrants, women, homosexuals, etc. are the victim of the white Christian bogey man. I'm not on the left or the right Dem or Rep, but I am sure billionaire Queen Beatrix of the Bilderberg Group is smiling as she sees the bickering back and forth. 
Doug
Doug
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Ivor Karabatkovic
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Mike Deneen
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My sister went to John Marshall. Worst name ever. Everyone always made fun of them. To make it tougher they should be the "divorce lawyers"....now that's scary!
Marshall University, on the other hand, has one of the greatest names ever: the Thundering Herd.
The Senate League does have some great names.....I love the Glenville Tarblooders and Collinwood Railroaders. Tough
FYI, when St. Ed's had its "name the team" contest in the 50s, Eagles narrowly won out over Fighting Irish.
Marshall University, on the other hand, has one of the greatest names ever: the Thundering Herd.
The Senate League does have some great names.....I love the Glenville Tarblooders and Collinwood Railroaders. Tough
FYI, when St. Ed's had its "name the team" contest in the 50s, Eagles narrowly won out over Fighting Irish.
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Brian Pedaci
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Mike, when comparing sports team names, consider how many of them were self-selecting and identifying with their primary constituent (Fighting Irish) vs. taking a stereotype without context. And please don't bother arguing that the Indians were named for Louis Sockalexis. That's a red herring - Chief Wahoo is as representative of Sockalexis as Little Black Sambo is representative of Jackie Robinson.
In issues like this, the argument seems to go "well it's not a serious issue, so you have no right to be against it at all". Just because its not as serious an issue to Native Americans as poverty, alcohol abuse and poor education doesn't mean that Chief Wahoo is OK and not at all disrespectful.
Is it unreasonable to hold the position that Native Americans have been royally screwed over again and again, that we could do much more to help them combat the effects of generations of racism on our parts and bad habits on theirs, AND that changing the name of our sports teams would be one small gesture of respect?
In issues like this, the argument seems to go "well it's not a serious issue, so you have no right to be against it at all". Just because its not as serious an issue to Native Americans as poverty, alcohol abuse and poor education doesn't mean that Chief Wahoo is OK and not at all disrespectful.
Is it unreasonable to hold the position that Native Americans have been royally screwed over again and again, that we could do much more to help them combat the effects of generations of racism on our parts and bad habits on theirs, AND that changing the name of our sports teams would be one small gesture of respect?
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Stan Austin
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Gary Rice
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Doug wrote:
" I'm sorry there were trails of tears, but that's better than getting scalped!"
Actually Doug, that's where the term "redskin" came from, there being a bounty placed on Native American scalps at one time.
Ben Franklin is credited with well-documented remarks regarding using big dogs on Native Americans. There are equally well-documented instances of biological warfare on Native Americans using smallpox-infested blankets. Persons interested in further research regarding related topics might begin by reading the following time line:
"How the Land of Northeast Ohio Was Stolen from Indigenous Peoples"
To be found by clicking the link I suggested in an earlier post,
http://www.committee500years.com/
then going to "resources", and from there to "suggested readings".
On a personal point of order:
I for one, do not care whether a person comes from the left or right wing, and it surprises and saddens me to see that type of thing come into a discussion about a proud and noble people.
As far as I am concerned, the radical left wing can lead to gulags, and the radical right can lead to Auschwitz. The entire 20th century was spent in this ideological battle; leaving more people dead than in any other period of time.
How soon we forget.
Change the names, and I believe that many of the comments expressed today could be found in 1930's Germany.
" I'm sorry there were trails of tears, but that's better than getting scalped!"
Actually Doug, that's where the term "redskin" came from, there being a bounty placed on Native American scalps at one time.
Ben Franklin is credited with well-documented remarks regarding using big dogs on Native Americans. There are equally well-documented instances of biological warfare on Native Americans using smallpox-infested blankets. Persons interested in further research regarding related topics might begin by reading the following time line:
"How the Land of Northeast Ohio Was Stolen from Indigenous Peoples"
To be found by clicking the link I suggested in an earlier post,
http://www.committee500years.com/
then going to "resources", and from there to "suggested readings".
On a personal point of order:
I for one, do not care whether a person comes from the left or right wing, and it surprises and saddens me to see that type of thing come into a discussion about a proud and noble people.
As far as I am concerned, the radical left wing can lead to gulags, and the radical right can lead to Auschwitz. The entire 20th century was spent in this ideological battle; leaving more people dead than in any other period of time.
How soon we forget.
Change the names, and I believe that many of the comments expressed today could be found in 1930's Germany.
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Stan Austin
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