Where’s the inclusion?

[Tim Liston]

Marguerite says: "There ARE no 'economies of scale ' with Cleveland Clinic operating Lakewood. There are only 'diseconomies of scale.'"

I've never heard of a business or economy that becomes less efficient as it gets bigger. Now, whether the Clinic or any other business uses their obvious economies of scare for its own benefit, or for the benefit of its customers or other constituencies, that's another matter. That's the thing that bugs me about the Clinic, the duopoly here in NEO, and countrywide for that matter. Health care providers, generally, are allowed to violate many laws that are designed to protect consumers cross-industry. Sherman, Robinson-Patman, the non-posting of prices, gouging those who have an emergency and are not exactly able to negotiate a fair price, collusion with the insurance industry, different charges for the same service based on insurance status, unwarranted tax benefits from non-profit status, etc.

But don't tell me the Clinic does not enjoy economies of scale. They do.

All of which is thread drift and sort of supports the point Jim Kenny and I are making. If you go against the prevailing narrative, or against one persistent poster, it normally takes less than an hour to get "shot down"....

[Jim O'Bryan]

Tim

While I would say it is not a true slice of Lakewood, it does have the same undertones and
understanding of the Community on the whole. Though you are correct we lack more
diversity and we continue to reach out, as we have when we ran out of Republicans.

While at any given time there is 10-15 jumping in, it seems that there is always enough to
cover more than one side of a discussion, add in a couple devil advocates, or as I like to
say Bobo the Clowns, and it becomes a very solid tool for looking at the city.

I would say it is staggeringly accurate at assessing people and groups in this city.

We have worked very hard to keep the LO out of any and all elections, the three elections
you spoke of, their were reasons for the feel you got. For the record, the board and members
were evenly divided amongst the three candidates. We stay out of elections except when it
comes to school, where we have always believed in educating students, and oversight. All
of the board members have supported the concept that good schools and a good library
help attract good residents to the city, while keeping property values up.

At the end of the day if a view is not represented, all they need to do is speak up, or send
in a note, and we are more than willing to through it into the "Mosh Pit of Word Jazz" and
see what comes out.

Tim, Jim and the rest thanks for jumping in.

.

[Alex Belisle]

[quote="Michael Deneen"]From a demographic perspective, the Deck does not represent an accurate portrait of the entire Lakewood community. For example, I'm not aware of any posters (other than Nadal Eadah, who posts rarely) that are a member of a racial minority.

I confess. I am a unique minority. My father is black (from Belize) and my mother is white (from Latvia), therefore I am a mulatto minority. LOL

[Stan Austin]

Alex You can be president of our local NAACP chapter

[Bill Call]

Having done so and knowing my opinion and understanding of the facts surrounding the discussed closure of Lakewood’s inpatient hospital for one that is better aligned with 21st century delivery of medicine and emergency care

Unfortunately, because my recent posted and published opinions are unpopular on the Observation Forum, many of these same contributors have openly condemned and mocked me.

I haven't seen any comments on the Deck that even approach condemnation and mocking.

I commend you for trying to defend the Mayor and LHA's hospital deal. All the more so because no one else will, not even the Mayor and LHA. It's not easy being the lone voice but like Napoleon said, "When you set out to take Vienna, take Vienna".

You set out to defend the demolition of the Hospital and replacing it with a family health center but then you never explained what the deal was and why it was so great.

You say that Lakewood must send its doctors and hospital and hospital foundation money to Avon to better align health care in Lakewood. OK..

1. If the future of healthcare is all minute clinic and health care apps why are the Clinic, UH and others spending hundreds of millions to build in Avon what we are tearing down in Lakewood?

2. The Mayor and his supporters say that the demolition of the Hospital will open up 5 acres for development. OK.. what kind of development? The only proposal so far is for a recreation center. Do we need a recreation center? Can't we have a recreation center and hospital?

3. The New York Times report on the Clinic Family Health Center in East Cleveland stated that it is a good place to go for a sore throat or sprained ankle and offers cooking classes. If that is the future of health care why doesn't Avon embrace the future?

4. If this is such a great deal why have the Mayor and his supporters REFUSED to defend the deal and REFUSED to provide any answers? I'm kind of wishy-washy so I can be convinced but I can't be convinced by silence.

There is more but you get the picture.

You can't be included unless you take part. I await your answers.

[Brian Essi]

If you go against the prevailing narrative, or against one persistent poster, it normally takes less than an hour to get "shot down"....

Tim & Jim Kenny,

Happy Father's Day. I was fishing all day yesterday so it is taking me more than a hour to "shoot down" your statement above--just kidding. Tim's comments about "thread drift" and going "against the prevailing narrative" both in Jim's topic heading using the term "inclusion" fascinate me.

Here are the facts that brought this "thread drift" about:

1. The Observer was inclusive and printed Jim Kenny's piece "I Live in Lakewood, I Speak For Me"--a piece in lock step with the prevailing false narrative that the Summers/Clinic plan to demolish Lakewood is going to somehow improve services and the health of Lakewood.

2. I created the topic heading "Breaking News: Clinic to Build "New Lakewood Hospital" in which I directly challenged Jim's facts and claims. There was some back and forth on that thread and folk piled on. A fair reading would be that Jim's "facts" are indefensible.

3. After Jim and I met for coffee, Jim started this thread challenging Deck participants as somehow being exclusive--apparently due to the tone rather that substance of criticism. There is a lot of back and forth above (including mine) about the Deck process as opposed to the political process and the bogus facts that started it all. Interestingly, Tim refers to the "prevailing narrative" as being a collective band of Deck posters and some perceived unfairness in folks "shooting down" others.

So it seems to me that Jim Kenny, who works in public relations, has effectively changed the subject from the facts and substance of the hospital debate to the Deck process instead.

I believe that political correctness is not correct as is borders on violations of the First Amendment when taken to extremes. I for on will continue to "shoot down" what I see to be false prevailing narratives that harm the most vulnerable among us and threaten our community as a whole.

Defending the truth is a tricky business:
1. "The truth will more likely be told by a multitude of tongues" Benjamin Cardozza
2. A lie repeated often enough by a multitude of tongues gives it s superficial appearance of being true.

P.S. Tim you may want to research a bit on: Diseconomies of scale---They are the forces that cause larger firms and governments to produce goods and services at increased per-unit costs. The concept is the opposite of economies of scale. The rising part of the long-run average cost curve illustrates the effect of diseconomies of scale.
That's why Metro is more efficient than the Clinic--too bad Summers screwed up the opportunity for our underserved to do business with Metro---at least until after the election.

[Jim Kenny]

Mr. Call: Thank you for the invitation to bring greater clarity to my claims. In response:

1) The future of health care is all around us. We see it whenever any of us gets out of Lakewood. It’s evident on a short drive on I-90. If we take a longer drive outside our state borders, we can see these same changes happening in Bellville, IL; Fort Lauderdale, FL; and Knoxville, TN. All of these locations have obsolete hospitals that are being closed for more efficient facilities that are more centrally located in their respective regions and better positioned and capitalized to serve broader, geographically dispersed populations, as reported in USA Today on April 11. It’s worth noting the Cleveland Clinic doesn’t operate in any of these other cities, yet market forces are causing these changes nonetheless.

2) The Mayor and his supporters are saying the 5.7 acres will be freed for development that can be a great opportunity to better serve the needs of all of Lakewood’s citizens. They’re also admitting that they don’t yet have a plan for the land. They want the community’s input before formulating one and seeking land developers to propose what’s possible. They remind us we have time to deliberate that later. In the meantime, they want to help us understand the global changes happening in the delivery of health care and how our city can be positioned to take advantage of these and not be a victim to them.

3) The proposed new hospital facility for Lakewood will compare favorably to the Cleveland Clinic models elsewhere. The Clinic keeps reminding us that the expanded services (22 > the current 20) will mirror those offered at its family wellness facility in Twinsburg. The only fair comparison to the East Cleveland facility is the size or its square footage of the proposed building, so the NYT’s reference isn’t relevant when comparing services to be offered at Lakewood.

4) I share your disappointment for the poor advocacy thus far by the Mayor and City Council members. Unfortunately, they’re now convinced they must remain quiet because of the pending lawsuit proffered by Chris DeVito. This narrow-minded act has robbed all of us the opportunity to objectively discuss what is being proposed. In my humble opinion, the Letter of Intent frames the discussion the Cleveland Clinic would like to have with the City. Let’s free them to have that discussion and let’s as a community evaluate the products of their negotiations when a deal is proposed. We can then accept or deny. But until we have an actual deal on the table, we must suffer through suspicions, speculation, conjecture and misplaced accusations.

Yes, there is more and, yes, I would like get more of the picture and ask others what they see.

Thanks for including me. I remain committed to participating in a discussion I started, as we all can benefit from inviting and listening to differing perspectives.

[Jim Kenny]

Brian: Thanks for joining the conversation and the good wishes.

Yes, I’m grateful that the Observer published my column. I’m also grateful that many on the Observation Deck have embraced my feedback that the forum might not be as inviting or inclusive as it can or should be. That’s why I started a new thread to explore this issue, as I didn’t want to distract the focus of the one that you originally started. Please know I’m not attempting to lawyer Deck participants away from considering the issues that you have inferred indefensible, but I am protecting what I consider to be one of our shared community values.

Lastly, despite the topic and intent of this thread, the subject keeps returning to the hospital. This has taught me how passionate my neighbors are about this subject, requiring me to give even greater consideration to what they write and believe and, more so, how I contribute.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Inclusion
noun
1. the act of including.
2. the state of being included.
3. something that is included.

The Lakewood Observer is the most inclusive project in this city. All you have to do is prove
who you are, and you are welcomed and become and Observer.

Just curious.


.

[m buckley]

Jim, I have to tell you this is starting to look like a variation of one of Team Summers talking points. It's no longer enough to define the opposition "as a vocal minority" now they have to be defined as "an intimidating vocal minority". Good luck with that.

[Bill Call]

3) The proposed new hospital facility for Lakewood will compare favorably to the Cleveland Clinic models elsewhere. The Clinic keeps reminding us that the expanded services (22 > the current 20) will mirror those offered at its family wellness facility in Twinsburg. The only fair comparison to the East Cleveland facility is the size or its square footage of the proposed building, so the NYT’s reference isn’t relevant when comparing services to be offered at Lakewood.

Thank you for your communication of this important information.

If the proposed Lakewood, (population 52,000) Family Health Center will mirror those in Twinsburg ,(population 19,000), this changes almost everything. Please provide some documentation so people can see what is being offered.

The Clinics Twinsburg facility is 190,000 square feet surgery and out patient facility offering a full staff of doctors and specialists and a full range of services. See here:

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/locations ... sburg-fhsc

http://www.turnerconstruction.com/exper ... ery-center

The 19,000 people of Twinsburg will also have a new Cleveland Clinic Hospital:

http://www.cleveland.com/medical/index. ... linic.html

The people of Twinsburg also have access to the services of University Hospitals:

http://www.uhhospitals.org/twinsburg

http://www.barberhoffman.com/_LoadDocum ... folioID=25

While there have been some printed reference to what is proposed at the Lakewood Family Health center the Clinic itself has REFUSED to provide a list of services. At a recent City Council meeting Clinic representatives would not provide a list of services, numbers of employees, numbers of doctors or specialists that would be assigned.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. In this case all we need is a PDF file or statements from Clinic officials that Lakewood's health care offerings will mirror those in Twinsburg.

I did notice that Twinsburg has the benefit of competing health care providers. The Clinic was demanding that they have a health care monopoly in Lakewood. Have they changed their position?

This changes everything.

You are doing a great service by defending the Mayors proposal. Your documentation will be an even greater service.

[Brian Essi]

2) The Mayor and his supporters are saying the 5.7 acres will be freed for development that can be a great opportunity to better serve the needs of all of Lakewood’s citizens. They’re also admitting that they don’t yet have a plan for the land. They want the community’s input before formulating one and seeking land developers to propose what’s possible. They remind us we have time to deliberate that later. In the meantime, they want to help us understand the global changes happening in the delivery of health care and how our city can be positioned to take advantage of these and not be a victim to them.



4) I share your disappointment for the poor advocacy thus far by the Mayor and City Council members. Unfortunately, they’re now convinced they must remain quiet because of the pending lawsuit proffered by Chris DeVito. This narrow-minded act has robbed all of us the opportunity to objectively discuss what is being proposed. In my humble opinion, the Letter of Intent frames the discussion the Cleveland Clinic would like to have with the City. Let’s free them to have that discussion and let’s as a community evaluate the products of their negotiations when a deal is proposed. We can then accept or deny. But until we have an actual deal on the table, we must suffer through suspicions, speculation, conjecture and misplaced accusations.

Jim Kenny,

1. The Mayor and his supporters did not ask for our input on healthcare or on demolishing the hospital and have not listened to any of our input since this process began in January. They are not asking for our input on what to do with residual real estate and while they may soon give lip service to that, they will just force their plans on us on that too.

2. I agree that the Mayor and President Madigan are inept advocates but that is largely because their plan stinks and the "vocal majority" see right through the pack of lies used to sell it, e.g. the $120 Million lie that remains at the top of their website. That dog just won't hunt. I know you are late to the party but painting Summer et al as victims of the taxpayer lawsuit just doesn't cut it. The lawsuit was not filed until May 28th ---more than 4 1/2 months after the January 14th LOI--they have had plenty of time to sell this and the lawsuit was filed based upon information revealed in the bogus public relations campaign to sell the plan. It is widely known that the Mayor is horrible at negotiating and does not surround himself with competent advisors. If you think that the City will be able to negotiate better terms after it signs the LOI, may I suggest you stick with your current occupation.

Jim, people are calling and writing me questioning whether you or your public relations company represent any party in this matter. It seems that you have much access to the Mayor, et al. and know their current thinking. Could you clarify exactly who you represent?

[Jim Kenny]

[quote="Brian Essi"][quote="Jim Kenny"]

Jim, people are calling and writing me questioning whether you or your public relations company represent any party in this matter. It seems that you have much access to the Mayor, et al. and know their current thinking. Could you clarify exactly who you represent?[/quote]

Hi Brian: I have a busy week ahead of client work, so I can't respond to all your comments or those of others. I do feel obligated to let you and anyone else know that the Mayor is not my client, nor do I represent anyone involved in this issue. Please know that the code of ethics that guides my profession requires me to identify my client anytime I participate in forum like this.

I'm here as a citizen. As such, I have the same access to the Mayor, City Council and anyone employed by each as anyone on this forum. This access has diminished the longer the lawsuit hangs over all of us. This legal maneuver has victimize all of us and certainly not anyone who holds office, as they now have an excuse for not being accountable. My goal is to keep my mind open. I’m here to encourage others to do the same.

[Jim Kenny]

[/quote]

You are doing a great service by defending the Mayors proposal. Your documentation will be an even greater service.[/quote]

Mr. Call: The amount of research that you drummed up in a short window is impressive. I can't begin to spend adequate time with it. I can tell you my objective isn't defense of anything more than my pursuit of the truth. My sources of information came from attending the Mayor's January presentation, subsequent City Council meetings, inquiries made to Shawn Juris, Mike Summers and Dru Siley, in addition to discussions with neighbors as I sorted through my thinking.

I've also listened to a lot of noise. One of my neighbors was convinced the hospital was destined to operate as heroin rehab clinic. He immediately fired off letters and emails to every elected official and insisted his friends do the same. Before any of us could react, he was quickly and separately informed by phone calls from both Juris and Summers that his understanding was incorrect. They both told him that the City was approached by a service and quickly dismissed it out of hand. Because of this experience, I feel obligated to share my understanding of the facts. I'm trying to do so here. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

[Jim O'Bryan]

My sources of information came from attending the Mayor's January presentation, subsequent City Council meetings, inquiries made to Shawn Juris, Mike Summers and Dru Siley, in addition to discussions with neighbors as I sorted through my thinking.
[/quote]


Jim

It amazes me that you can take, proven liars at face value, yet question those that did
the homework.

When Brian and I first met, he disagreed with my thoughts on this project, today after
checking the facts, he is on board, and is sick at how this city runs with lies and BS.

But this one is easy, sit down with the LOI and do the math yourself. Do the math using
their documents and what they say.

You end up with a deal, NO CITY CAN AFFORD.

But me personally, it is the lying I cannot stomach from elected officials and city hall.

.