From City Hall... Supplier Freezes Lakewood’s Salt Reserve

[Edward Favre]

Environmentally, we use way too much road salt as it is. Regardless of fault, maybe not having as much is not such a bad thing.

[Glenn Palmer]

I couldn't agree more Ed

[Sandra Donnelly]

Has Lakewood looked into brine as an alternative?

[Edward Favre]

I don't believe brine is much better. Other than it was a way to get rid of a byproduct of oil wells.

[Jeff Dreger]

There should be a balance. I have certainly seen cases of over or unnecessary application. But even though I like to think of myself as an environmentalist, generally speaking I would prefer to err on the side of safety in this case. There were a few too many times last winter when the only safe way to drive was to not drive.

[Valerie Molinski]

If people would use either winter tires and/or AWD in the winter, it would solve a lot of issues. And also, slow down. I had an AWD car up until last year and was able to run all season tires on it with no issue. I got a new car with FWD in the fall and put dedicated winter tires on a separate set of rims... and also, I slowed down. I had zero issues again this winter. Most cars these days come with All Season tires and they are pretty much good for nothing, especially in the winter. They are terrible. Or some of the cars I see with zero tread left on them driving in the winter around here. You are practically on racing slicks, what do you expect to happen?

I agree with Mr. Farve that more salt is not the answer. And some of the roads that I saw last winter that people complained about because they were not completely scraped down to blacktop were fine... if people would just use better equipment and better judgement on their speed and driving skill in the winter.

[Bill Burnett]

Salt the intersections and leave a layer of packed snow everywhere else. You actually have better traction on packed snow than you do on slush. And drive slower. It's winter.

[Jeff Dreger]

Of course people should slow down. I don't think anyone would suggest that folks not adjust for conditions. I'm certainly not. And yes, if one can afford a better car and/or car options then they should at least consider it. But again I'm not so worried about any of those people. The safety issue isn't about what I do or what I have or even what I think others should be doing. My kids might be perfectly OK crossing the unsalted streets in winter with only the slow AWD cars with winter tires out there. But the folks that don't slow down (enough) or can't afford an AWD car and/or dedicated winter tires - or even regular tires when due - are still out there regardless of our judgments of them. (But even my supposedly good car with supposedly good tires felt unsafe to drive in at any speed at several times/locations last winter.) We can tsk tsk those folks and just say they have only themselves to blame when they wreck or kill someone but it's my feeling that the caretakers of the roads have some responsibility to salt when weather dictates.

[Valerie Molinski]

Of course people should slow down. I don't think anyone would suggest that folks not adjust for conditions. I'm certainly not. And yes, if one can afford a better car and/or car options then they should at least consider it. But again I'm not so worried about any of those people. The safety issue isn't about what I do or what I have or even what I think others should be doing. My kids might be perfectly OK crossing the unsalted streets in winter with only the slow AWD cars with winter tires out there. But the folks that don't slow down (enough) or can't afford an AWD car and/or dedicated winter tires - or even regular tires when due - are still out there regardless of our judgments of them. (But even my supposedly good car with supposedly good tires felt unsafe to drive in at any speed at several times/locations last winter.) We can tsk tsk those folks and just say they have only themselves to blame when they wreck or kill someone but it's my feeling that the caretakers of the roads have some responsibility to salt when weather dictates.

Huh, well here is me talking like a total republican, but we can't plan for every eventuality and provide a total nanny state for those who don't want to take personal responsibility.

I could think of a lot better ways to spend $500 than a set of tires that I will only use for 5 months (tops) out of the year. But I sucked it up and planned it into my budget... because I need to be safe, I need my kids to be safe while in my car, I need to get to work, even when the weather is bad.

I guess my issue is that I am not saying we all need fancy equipment or a car that cost $x thousands more because it has AWD. But those tires are the cost of a deductible if I crash my car, so they were an investment. Or if you know your car can't handle it, find other means to get where you are going. OR don't go out. And I realize not everyone has that luxury to just decide not to go somewhere. But if you have to walk, buy a pair of boots. I shouldnt expect my city to salt the crap out of roads to the detriment of their budget, my tax money, and the environment, because other people ordered their priorities differently.

Like I said, I dont feel there was ever a time where our roads were impassible without some sort of planning (leaving later, driving slower, etc..). The answer is not "ADD MORE SALT!" Bad tires (or brakes or....) are unsafe in many conditions, not just snowy roads, imo.

[Jim O'Bryan]

The other day I was speaking with a City Engineer about roads, and salt and...

My question was, "How much would we save plowing to 1/2" instead of the road surface?"

His answer, "A massive amount in salt and road repairs!"

Something to think about.

Better than caring our trash to the city dump which I am sure is soon to happen.

.

[Jeff Dreger]

Ranting about personal responsibility completely misses the point of my last post.

That said:

“Huh, well here is me talking like a total republican,”

I really don’t see what political party affiliation has to do with anything here.

“ but we can't plan for every eventuality “

And no one is saying we should – just the eventuality of snow covered roads in the winter.

“and provide a total nanny state for those who don't want to take personal responsibility.”

Salting and plowing snow covered roads in winter is not my definition of a nanny state but to each their own.

“I could think of a lot better ways to spend $500 than a set of tires that I will only use for 5 months (tops) out of the year. But I sucked it up and planned it into my budget... because I need to be safe, I need my kids to be safe while in my car, I need to get to work, even when the weather is bad. “

Good for you – you did what you thought you had to do… and I hope you thank God every day that you even had the option.

“I guess my issue is that I am not saying we all need fancy equipment or a car that cost $x thousands more because it has AWD. But those tires are the cost of a deductible if I crash my car, so they were an investment.”

Again, plenty of folks don’t have anywhere close to the means necessary to make that or any other investment.

“ Or if you know your car can't handle it, find other means to get where you are going. OR don't go out. And I realize not everyone has that luxury to just decide not to go somewhere. But if you have to walk, buy a pair of boots.”

Like you just said, not everyone has that “luxury”.

“ I shouldnt expect my city to salt the crap out of roads to the detriment of their budget, my tax money, and the environment, because other people ordered their priorities differently.”

I don’t want them to salt the crap out of the roads either. Of course, if you are right then perhaps salting and plowing at any level are completely unnecessary since it costs money and hurts the environment.

“Like I said, I dont feel there was ever a time where our roads were impassible without some sort of planning (leaving later, driving slower, etc..). “

I will agree to disagree – I certainly felt there were times when the roads were impassible if safety has any meaning.

“The answer is not "ADD MORE SALT!" Bad tires (or brakes or....) are unsafe in many conditions, not just snowy roads, imo.”

Again, I agree to disagree. Sometimes more salt is the answer. Unless you are a proponent of never salting at all I guess.

[Valerie Molinski]

Sorry, the republican crack was just a joke. I'm a liberal leaning person and I always hear stuff about 'nanny state' and 'personal responsibility' from my more conservative leaning relatives.

The rest of my post still stands. I get it, I do. But again, I still feel that I did not once experience impassable roads in lakewood last winter that were not able to be handled by better tires or slower driving. No amount of more salt would have solved it, mainly because we had sub zero conditions that would have negated its effects anyway. I think the city did their due dilligence last year and made the roads decent enough for travel. The majority of the problems I saw were self-induced that no amount of plowing or salt would have solved.

And yes, I called choosing not to go somewhere a 'luxury' that many cannot choose. If I know I need to get from A to B for my job or my kids, I consider it a necessity to make that happen.

[Edward Favre]

Most of us have front wheel drive, all wheel drive, or four wheel drive rather than simple rear wheel drive of the older cars. FWD, AWD, 4WD help us pull through the snow easier, but they do not help stopping. Consequently, people tend to get up to speed faster and end up driving too fast in the snow.