Church of Christ Scientist as Rock Gym?

[michael gill]

The church of Christ Scientist at 117th and Lake is, of course, in Cleveland. But you don't have to be a regionalist to recognize that this would be terrific for Lakewood, too:

FIFTH CHURCH OF ROCK CLIMBING, SCIENTIST

On Friday nights in the summer time in Tremont, Chick Holtkamp, Niki Zmij, and some friends occasionally climb the brick exterior of Chick’s building. It’s the urban face of rock climbing, a Cleveland reaction to the fact that we just don’t have much in the way of good natural climbing rocks around here. They attach belay ropes for safety, cling to the bricks and window sills, and go up like spiders, practicing techniques they’ll use on trips to places like Moab, or Yosemite.

Cleveland has a dedicated community of climbers, but they have to travel to find big rocks. There are a couple of small-ish rock gyms where they can climb indoors. Holtkamp and Zmij, however, have a vision of a climbing facility that would put Cleveland on the nation’s climbing map in a whole new way. If only they can get the right people to listen.

What they want to build is a climbing gym that takes advantage of the city’s spectacular architectural heritage. Of course there are plenty of large industrial spaces that might serve such a project well. But their vision is to use the city-owned Fifth Church of Christ Scientist. It’s one of the most celebrated vacant landmarks in the region, a neoclassical sandstone octagon that stands at the corner of West 117th and Lake Road.

The fight to somehow preserve the building has been going on for twenty years. The congregation opened the doors there in 1926 and held services there until 1989, before selling it to Riser Foods in 1991. Riser, which operated a Rego’s Grocery Store that stood nearby, wanted to level it for parking.

People in the neighborhood raised enough of a ruckus to hold up the demolition, though. They picketed and petitioned, and the grocers backed down. Riser’s first revised plan was to incorporate the structure into a new grocery store. They gutted the woodwork and other interior details, along with removing asbestos, in 1995. But the economics didn’t work out, and the plan was scrapped. In 2002 they decided working out a way to reuse the historic building was too much a burden, and they gave the property to the city of Cleveland: a gift. Since then a few developers have come and gone with ideas, including a bookstore, a produce market, and of course subdividing the structure into condominiums. Former councilman Jay Westbrook supported the neighborhood’s interest in finding an adaptive re-use for the building for years, but none of those visions became reality. As of January 1, it became an opportunity for councilman Matt Zone.

Holtkamp and Zmij believe their proposal might have the magical combination that makes it feasible, though. First, renovating a stone building as a climbing gym doesn’t require the same level of polish as a grocery store or bookstore or pricey condos need. That would make it much less expensive. Neither does it need as much parking as any of the retail establishments that have been proposed.2014-01-27 15.39.53

Perhaps most importantly, though, it has the benefit of being visionary. It’s an inspiring way to preserve and even capitalize on a prominent piece of Cleveland’s fallow architectural heritage. Comparing it to other climbing gyms is almost unfair: It’s not a boxy warehouse, but a soaring, octagonal brick and stone space capped by a dome. The eight sides of the interior could create climbing challenges to satisfy all skill levels. There are other indoor climbing gyms, but the 56 foot dome would put this one near the top in terms of how high people could climb. And the appeal of adaptive re-use by a young congregation focused on physical activity would make it every bit as much a landmark as it was as a church.

It’s hard to imagine people better prepared to carry out the vision. Holtkamp is a respected climber, and not just in Cleveland. As it happens, he’s also a successful redeveloper and manager of old masonry buildings. He was one of the first new investors in Tremont back in the 1980s when he began renovating some of the most prominent buildings in the neighborhood. Lemko Hall, which was used in the film The Deer Hunter, is just one example. Zmij, also a climber, has worked in commercial climbing gyms.

Until the rock climbing proposal surfaced, the former church was facing the same fate as it did 20 years ago: A grocery store developer wants to demolish it for parking. As the Plain Dealer reported last fall, the best outcome people in the neighborhood dared to hope for was to keep the columns and portico standing in a little scrap of a green space flanked by parking for the grocery store. It would look like a fragment of ruin in a city park: it would be better than a total loss, but still a monument to how wealthy Cleveland once was, a sad reminder that we used to have classically proportioned churches built out of real stone.

But a rock climbing facility would keep the structure standing, and bring it back to life. It wouldn’t be the first time a hulking Cleveland vacancy was turned into an athletic attraction. Here’s hoping City Hall gives this one a chance.

[Jim Marquard]

I am not a rock climber - but CLIMB ON!!!
Hopefully the city of cleveland will climb on with this vision!

[Bill Call]

I am not a rock climber - but CLIMB ON!!!
Hopefully the city of cleveland will climb on with this vision!

It's never going to happen.

There are three pillars to Cleveland and Cuyahoga County's development plan. The first is the focus on downtown development. The second is the effort to move the health industry and economic activity to Median, Lorain, Lake and Summit County. The third is regionalization.

From this, http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index. ... eater.html, silly editorial in last Sunday's Plain Dealer:

Altering how local and state governments do business is a tough nut to crack, particularly in a county as Balkanized as Cuyahoga County, with 59 different political entities as well as dozens of school districts and other taxing authorities. That has created fierce pride in one's hometown -- and comparably fierce resistance to the sorts of changes needed to improve efficiency, save taxpayer money and make the Cleveland area more competitive.

According to the PD everything is going great. The only real problem we face is Cities like Lakewood. If only it didn't exist all of our problems would be solved.

It's time for people to face the fact that the Plain Dealer and our institutions are deliberately undermining inner ring suburbs to create the "need" for regional government.

No matter how many jobs are lost, no matter how many people leave town and no matter how much the County declines they will never alter those plans. Why? Because it is an obsession not a plan.

Each bit of bad economic news is greeted with the cry, "More of the same will save us!".

[Christopher Bindel]

My main question is how do they plan to afford the large amount of renovations to just make the building stop falling apart let alone turn it into a rock gym?

I was in there to take some photos coincidentally the same day these people were in there looking at the property for this rock gym. I have to say it is an interesting and cool idea, however a very ambitious one. The building is leaking like a sieve, the stone work on the outside and inside is crumbling like plaster, there are ridiculous amounts of debris and dead animals everywhere, not to mention mold. Shoring up the building and taking care of all these thing will be expensive and necessary before they can even start dreaming of turning it in to anything. They were talking about taring out the floor so the climbing would be basement to dome, which is also not a cheap endeavor. Don't get me wrong, I really like this building and would love to see some adaptive use of it, but it is important to make sure it is going to be something that will be able to be financially viable otherwise we are just delaying the inevitable.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Don't get me wrong, I really like this building and would love to see some adaptive use of it, but it is important to make sure it is going to be something that will be able to be financially viable otherwise we are just delaying the inevitable.

The most important point out there.

I would love to see the business plan.


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[Bill Call]

Don't get me wrong, I really like this building and would love to see some adaptive use of it, but it is important to make sure it is going to be something that will be able to be financially viable otherwise we are just delaying the inevitable.

The most important point out there.

I would love to see the business plan.

I hate to start an argument but financial viability is irrelevant.

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Play House Square, Capital Theater and the new Downtown Heinen's are not economically viable. They only survive because of taxpayer subsidies.

Why not a subsidy for development of the Christian Science Building?

More people live within a 10 minute walk of that corner than live in all of downtown. Imagine the possibilities if our regional development experts started investing money where people actually live.

[michael gill]

Of course those are the right questions. And Bill may very well be correct about the outcome here.

I don't know anything about the business plan.

However: Ten years ago, it may have seemed highly unlikely that anyone could build a profitable business by getting people from Cleveland and across the country to pay money to ride bikes around a course built in an old factory in a Cleveland neighborhood. But that's working so well that a major bicycle manufacturer bought the business and opened a second location using the same model. Of course I'm referring to Ray's Indoor Mountain Bike Park.

There are a couple of rock gyms functioning, paying rent, already in Cleveland. So enough of a market already exists to support those, with their operating costs. It doesn't take a rock climber to see that this one . . . for its height, its physical presence, and back story . . . would immediately be the most attractive thing in that market.

It's also worth noting that the city of Cleveland didn't pay for this building and would probably give it free, or for a dollar, to a developer with a viable plan. They'd start without rent or a mortgage.

As you all know, anyone with such an idea would have to demonstrate to the city the ability to afford the necessary improvements. I'm not sure if the words "rock climbing" make you think it's a couple of hipsters behind this project. One of the principals, in his fifties, has restored, owns, and manages several substantial masonry buildings, both in Cleveland and Lakewood.

It might not happen. It's an uphill battle. I'm rooting for them.

[michael gill]

Wow, Bill, are you going commie or something?

I agree that this would be at least as good an investment as much of what has gone on downtown.

I haven't heard that the proponents are looking for any subsidy beyond the building itself.

[Jim O'Bryan]

I hate to start an argument but financial viability is irrelevant.

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Play House Square, Capital Theater and the new Downtown Heinen's are not economically viable. They only survive because of taxpayer subsidies.

Why not a subsidy for development of the Christian Science Building?

More people live within a 10 minute walk of that corner than live in all of downtown. Imagine the possibilities if our regional development experts started investing money where people actually live.

Bill

With the population of Cleveland falling below 400,000 as is projected, less grant money,
less projects money, which means "things" need to be sustainable, and financially secure.

The days of fantasies like The Capitol Theater are probably nearing an end.

As a conservative, I am sure you understand the need for reality checks now and then.

For the past 30 years the region has lived in some sort of fantasy world, being sold a bag
of magic beans and false promises. Funny how few people looked behind the curtain of
hype at who the players in the band were, and what their goals were.

Critical thought, is so important.

Bill, if you hate bridges to nowhere, as you claim, then why would you want one for us?

.

[Bill Call]

Critical thought, is so important.

Bill, if you hate bridges to nowhere, as you claim, then why would you want one for us?

.

Because the Great Awesome Giant Subsidy Machine (GAGSME) will never come to an end. The mantra here in Cleveland is "If what we are doing is not working that is proof that we need to do it even more!".

In that environment it behooves all of us to get in line and to fight for first place in that line.

Of course I'd prefer that GAGSME would wind down but it won't.

The paradox is Lakewood. Perhaps one of the reasons the City is doing well is that we have let the market take its course.

BUT, with our regional institutions working to ACTIVELY damage the City maybe we need to be more aggressive in our own defense. The Cuyahoga County Jobs Destruction Machine may grind slowly but it grinds very fine.

This information deserves its own post: City income tax collections are up substantially. Higher withholding, higher residence tax and higher net profit tax indicate a healthy City. How long can that continue in the face of the active hostility of our regional institutions?

[Christopher Bindel]

More people live within a 10 minute walk of that corner than live in all of downtown.

I think this might be a bit of an exaggeration. And regardless, if you are only talking about a rock gym idea, how many of the people who are going to go there do you think are the people with in walking distance? If you are talking about other possible concepts, the problem is, although there are residents that want to save the building, a large number of the nearby residents dont want anything there that will bring what they interpret as lots of traffic. Any viable idea is probably going to bring a decent amount of traffic. Oh and by the way, this building does not own any parking.

There are a couple of rock gyms functioning, paying rent, already in Cleveland. So enough of a market already exists to support those, with their operating costs.

...

It's also worth noting that the city of Cleveland didn't pay for this building and would probably give it free, or for a dollar, to a developer with a viable plan. They'd start without rent or a mortgage.

Although I believe you are right on both these points, there is one distinct difference. There is a lot less work and money to turn an empty warehouse into a rock gym, or terrain park, then an old crumbling building. Especially one you are discussing taking the the floor out to the basement.

[Bill Call]

More people live within a 10 minute walk of that corner than live in all of downtown.

I think this might be a bit of an exaggeration. .

I walk fast.

There are about 10,000 people living in Cleveland's Edgewater area and about 2,500 in Lakewood's Gold Coast area. That's about 1 square mile area in total and has a population greater than downtown. That doesn't include the population in the rest of Ward 4 in Lakewood.

The Christian Science building is doomed. Giant Eagle plans to build an urban Market District on that site. The City would like the North end of the area to have condos, the locals would like some of the Christian Science building to stay. What would add value to the neighborhood? I'm partial to housing of some kind.

The commercial building across the street is 50% vacant. I wonder if it's in line for the wrecking ball.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Valentines appearing in support of saving the building.


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[Terry Tekushan]

Business plan. Not a bunch of lightweights there. You can download the proposal there.

http://www.neighborsinaction.info/

I wrote a letter to Matt Zone, Mayor Jackson, and others. Each tweaked to the recipient. Here's the Mayor Jackson version of it.

It applies specifically to Fifth Church but can be generalized to other situations like this. I assume the chances of the mayor reading this are nil, but no worse odds than any other community these days. Cue the doggedly myopic panners of slightly unconventional ideas!
----

Dear Mayor Jackson,

I'm writing regarding the pending decision on the fate of the Fifth Church, Edgewater Dr. @ W. 117th.

Let me first say that I have been an overall supporter of your way of doing things. That you've managed to micromanage Cleveland through some of the toughest economic circumstances imaginable is a minor miracle in the art of Public Administration. I don't make that observation lightly. I'm also aware of other publicly debated proposals (LED lighting, trash gassification) that had merit beyond what the public's impression of such technologies might be.

On the other hand, I might also say that you could use a little more of that "vision thing" when it comes to architectural treasures that can serve as anchors to area revitalization. I'm not talking about industrial development, where that sector's needs are quite specific. I'm speaking of the type of places that can become part of a larger draw of outer suburban and exurban disposable income. Please consider the following:


Have you ever noticed that grass-roots gentrification and revitalization always seems to center around a great building or collection of very good buildings? Have you ever noticed that once the momentum starts, that new buildings are a hat tip to the established structures, thus creating a synergy that can't be achieved alone? Have you ever noticed how revitalized zones succeed because they've become a destination for people living outside that area?

Do you really think that if Ohio City had been "urban renewal'ed" and cleared that there would be anything of core value there today? Were the Gordon Square area to have been cleared of it's buildings and littered with expressionless cubes (clad in tawdry vinyl) as replacements, would anyone, ANYONE of creativity later have said, "This is where we will make our stand for arts and entertainment!" Do you really think that the architectural and historic impact of the West Side Market and the cluster of W. 25th buildings is irrelevant to that market district's success? Do you think the "foodie" district in Lakewood would be a "chic" place if was leveled and replaced with singularly corporate cookie cutter development? Do you really think that Playhouse Square would be drawing people in from all over if the wrecking ball started swinging as scheduled in 1972? Or the Capitol Theater after the fire?

Have you noticed that all of the above (among others) are forming an interlocking string of destinations along Greater Cleveland's Lake Erie shores? And have historic architecture as their anchors?

Have you noticed that none of the above individual destinations are a detriment to their neighbors? Or that they form a linked entity that is developing a gravitational pull for our region's food and entertainment dollars? Does anyone understand that the individual businesses are not really competing against one another but bolstering their collective successes?

Will the councilman, the mayor, and the other Clifton @ W. 117th developers understand the importance of these relationships?

Can anyone doubt that, if you were to park the 5th Church Scientist edifice on a corner in Venice or someplace similar, thousands of tourists would have photographed it by now? That the impression great buildings leave improves with the improvement of their context? That they can't improve the context by their removal?

To have a new group that understands these things-- and wants to put their own money where their mouth is, and to have a treasure of an architect like Sandvick on the job-- is an occurrence of such fortune that it's nearly inconceivable that anyone in this town could stand in their way.

Despite laudable successes nearby and elsewhere, it exposes a dogged myopia in this region's business and public sector to advocate for the irreversible destruction of an irreplicable building that can serve to anchor future development and revitalization.

Despite our leaderships' best intentions (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on this), in-group groupthink can be dysfunctional to a suicidal degree.

Please try to see how adaptive reuse of the 5th Church building fits into the big picture. Rehab will effectively hit this building's "reset button," and pay both monetary and intangible dividends to the culture and community beyond the dollars invested far into the future. Buildings like this are "bequeathed" and not "foisted" on future generations. That the community can't seem to see that at the moment is not the fault of the building but a past failure of proper stewardship. It now presents an opportunity for visionary leadership to show how cultural and economic synergy provides a benefit for everybody. It always has been this way. In this instance a small change of perspective is all that's necessary to see it.

Sincerely,

Terence Tekushan

[Gary Rice]

Terence's points are well taken, and well thought out too.

That beautiful building has been a subject of discussion for years.

The trouble with old buildings is simply that they are very expensive to maintain, and who exactly wants to step up to the plate and pay the price for that maintenance? If we look to Europe, we see that under their systems, governments subsidize the maintenance of old church buildings. Of course, they do this in some places by taxing religious adherents accordingly. I'm no lawyer, but I seriously doubt whether that would be possible here under our Constitution.

A friend of mine once looked into purchasing and re-purposing that building in a wonderful way that might have pleased everyone...except, I would suspect, my friend's banker. There was no way that my friend found for his project to be long-term viable as a private enterprise. The expenses would simply far outweigh any hope of recompense.

I've had some personal experience seeing a building belonging to a fraternal group that I've been a member of end up getting demolished, as membership declined and upkeep increased to a point of no return.

I think if we look at the track record of many if not most of these kinds of stories in America, the outcome is sadly all too often inevitably the same...

...a date with the demolition team.

Not wanting to offend anyone who cares deeply about this timeless building, I will nonetheless attempt to interject a bit of humor here:

This thread began with the thought that this building might become a rock (climbing) gym, right?

Perhaps its best hope of salvation might rather be for it to be turned into a rock SALT building instead .

At least then, there might then be enough of that stuff to go around next year.

It would not be the first time that a pillar of salt has been seen when leaving a city...

Whether that city, in this case, would be Cleveland or Lakewood, would be in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.

Back to the banjo...