Does anyone have any insight?

[Jim O'Bryan]

It has just come to my attention that Quaker State and Lube has gotten a variance to keep their patio open in the back of the new property after 11pm.

Is Quaker Steak and Lube really going to have a back patio? Have they gotten a variance to keep the back patio open after 11pm? If so, who granted the variance?

Or is Jim's statement a total fabrication?

Keith

It was not a "total fabrication" it came from talking with people at the QSL in Amherst back
when the project was first announced.

As of now there is not a back patio. At the same time, Corporate has not ruled out car
night or bike night like at other QSLs. I was talking with them yesterday and they neither
confirmed nor denied when ask about them.

I have been going to QSL for years. I have seen them on 4 acres and some on trailers
pulled behind trucks. All of them offer the same quality food.

And QSL tries to come in and work with the community, hire locally, manage locally.

As for the patio, we shall see.

Thank you for asking.

.

[marklingm]

As of now there is not a back patio. At the same time, Corporate has not ruled out car night or bike night like at other QSLs. I was talking with them yesterday and they neither confirmed nor denied when ask about them.

Why would City Hall not want QSL to have a patio?

Why would City Hall bring in QSL and not also bring bike night to Lakewood? QSL does bike night better than any other restaurant.

Matt

[Christopher Bindel]

It has just come to my attention that Quaker State and Lube has gotten a variance to keep their patio open in the back of the new property after 11pm.

Lets be honest Jim, this statement was a complete fabrication. It may have been based in a rumor you heard from the developers months before, but when posting it, like you had just heard this 'disturbing fact' no such thing had recently come to light, because no such plans were ever discussed, let a lone approved and granted a variance, by the city.

It has just come to my attention

By whom was this suddenly brought to your attention by anyways?

[Betsy Voinovich]

It has just come to my attention that Quaker State and Lube has gotten a variance to keep their patio open in the back of the new property after 11pm.

Lets be honest Jim, this statement was a complete fabrication. It may have been based in a rumor you heard from the developers months before, but when posting it, like you had just heard this 'disturbing fact' no such thing had recently come to light, because no such plans were ever discussed, let a lone approved and granted a variance, by the city.

It has just come to my attention

By whom was this suddenly brought to your attention by anyways?

Chris,

You are the one talking about having one's facts straight before speaking, and also about the level of civility on the Deck. Above you say, "Let's be honest, this is a complete fabrication."

You are wrong, and if you track down each conjecture you will find that Jim wasn't lying. Do it over and over again; look for issues where people say Jim is making things up. He never makes things up. Check it out. Do your research. Sometimes he gets things wrong, or part-way, like we all do on here as we try to figure things out.

I'm tired of this portrayal of someone who, with some pretty savvy, extraordinarily community-minded friends, gave us this forum, and free public newspaper, which gives every one of us a chance to speak with one another and work together, to know our community, and to improve our community.

In this case, you should have done your homework before flat out calling Jim a liar, and in such a way, "Let's be honest," etc.

This is from Fox 8 news, March 15, 2012

Lakewood, Ohio — A Quaker Steak and Lube with an outdoor patio and extended hours is coming to town.

Lakewood’s Planning Commission approved two conditional use permits that allow the restaurant an outdoor patio and extended hours.

The restaurant will be located in what’s referred to as the “Drug Mart Plaza” on Detroit Avenue in Lakewood.

Quaker Steak and Lube is a family friendly restaurant with a motor-themed atmosphere.

They offer 25 signature wing sauces in over 41 locations.



You also have a reputation to uphold, as Jim does. Are you a liar? Because you didn't know about this variance?

Please be the good example that you continue to describe.

I personally have concern over the extended hours and wonder whether the City offered free parking to Quaker Steak and Lube, because they suddenly had all of the parking places available at Kauffman Park, because they closed the park early.

Betsy Voinovich

[marklingm]

Who is a liar? What is lying?

Please read the following link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/lying/lying_1.shtml.

Now, I don't believe that either Chris or Jim is a liar. Nor do I believe that either Chris or Jim is lying.

The issue underlying many of the threads over the past year is that City Hall is less than forthcoming in answering questions or providing straightforward responses.

As an elected official, I never made people guess at facts. I never made people beg for facts. I never leaked certain facts to some and not others. I cannot say that the same is true of all at City Hall.

Chris, you can't be the proxy for City Hall.

City Hall has to speak for City Hall.

Matt

[Christopher Bindel]

Betsy, you are right, I guess, that it is not a complete fabrication, it is a somewhat true statement with one phrase thrown in to make it completely wrong and misleading.

It has just come to my attention that Quaker State and Lube has gotten a variance to keep their patio open in the back of the new property after 11pm.

A variance was given for a patio for extended hours, true, but there never has been plan (of the submitted to the city kind) for a rear patio, and to report as such is inaccurate and irresponsible. I understand mistakes can be made, however from the start this statement has always smelled fishy to me and particularly irksome especially when Jim so vehemently defended it until it was proven time and time again to be false.

You are the one talking about ... the level of civility on the Deck.

You are correct, and for this I personally apologize to Jim. I should have been a bit more tactful, however as I stated before this statement irks me the wrong way, and after our long fiery conversations over it earlier in this thread, it being brought up took me back into the old discussion. Its no excuse, and I'm sorry. Although I will once again ask for us all to try and bring facts.

Track down each conjecture you will find that Jim wasn't lying.

Maybe he wasn't, but he was wrong.

He never makes things up. Check it out. Do your research.

I would love to, but so much of what Jim says is only "supported" by sources he either can't or wont supply. Therefore I am unable to check it out and verify for myself. And i am someone who does not like to take things just because someone tells me they are so.

[Jim O'Bryan]

This has gotten silly though I know why.

Liar! Really. So it is a crime for me to lie about QSL patio but not for a councilman who
is the head of the committee that oversaw the very project(s) he mislead about? OK got it.

However, I did not lie, and stand by my statement.

When I heard QSL was coming I went to the one in Amherst and had dinner with Deb. This
is something we often do with places coming to Lakewood. Look at the Taco Tonto thread.
However QSL in Amherst is a place I get to about 10 times a summer, on car night or bike night.


Proof that I have been to the Amherst Quaker Steak and Lube. Wings, burgers, onion
rings on an antenna, large pepsi for me and the missus. (I can provide a digital original
of this image should anyone need to check it for being photoshoped)

Anyway, I was talking to the bartender/manager that night about Lakewood, and he stated
it would would have a large patio. Well look at the space as it was when the project
started. There was no "Large Patio" or room for one but out back. Likewise they got the
variance on hours. Which was 100% true. I am still willing to bet, the back lot gets used
and here is why.

It would be crazy to bring in a QSL and not give them the nights they are most famous
for. Why would a city hold a franchise known for cars and bikes back? Does it make sense?

No matter, liar?

As far as my sources, Chris, as anyone who has spent anytime with me knows, many,
many people talk to me about all sorts of things, all the time. From 6 am till 2am. I have
always felt that they (senators to the homeless) talk to me because I listen, and I do not
reveal my sources. My multiple sources.

I will be honest, as I always try to be. I did not check any plans. I was talking with
someone from QSL about a future restaurant and patio. I did not give it the same
level of seriousness as say losing our parks, $12,400,000.00 difference in the real price
of a project, or $300,000 of missing Lakewood property, or doing the same thing
Lakewood is being sued in Federal Court for right now, using their full power to try to
shut down a legal business one way or another.

But, you seem to think this is more important. Well it is America, two ways we celebrate
that, through the first amendment and discussions like this.

I will not reveal any sources unless they say it is OK. I don't write for the paper, and I do
not use it to a level I probably should. I simply make observations, and sometimes, I
share them. My record for being correct, unfortunately, is pretty good. I am not trying to
be a reporter, publisher, anarchist, politician, civic leader, or Nostradamus; just a resident
and businessman, talking to fellow residents and business people over a digital fence.

peace


.

[Corey Rossen]

It has just come to my attention that Quaker State and Lube has gotten a variance to keep their patio open in the back of the new property after 11pm.

Lets be honest Jim, this statement was a complete fabrication. It may have been based in a rumor you heard from the developers months before, but when posting it, like you had just heard this 'disturbing fact' no such thing had recently come to light, because no such plans were ever discussed, let a lone approved and granted a variance, by the city.

It has just come to my attention

By whom was this suddenly brought to your attention by anyways?

Chris,

You are the one talking about having one's facts straight before speaking, and also about the level of civility on the Deck. Above you say, "Let's be honest, this is a complete fabrication."

You are wrong, and if you track down each conjecture you will find that Jim wasn't lying. Do it over and over again; look for issues where people say Jim is making things up. He never makes things up. Check it out. Do your research. Sometimes he gets things wrong, or part-way, like we all do on here as we try to figure things out.

I'm tired of this portrayal of someone who, with some pretty savvy, extraordinarily community-minded friends, gave us this forum, and free public newspaper, which gives every one of us a chance to speak with one another and work together, to know our community, and to improve our community.

In this case, you should have done your homework before flat out calling Jim a liar, and in such a way, "Let's be honest," etc.

This is from Fox 8 news, March 15, 2012

Lakewood, Ohio — A Quaker Steak and Lube with an outdoor patio and extended hours is coming to town.

Lakewood’s Planning Commission approved two conditional use permits that allow the restaurant an outdoor patio and extended hours.

The restaurant will be located in what’s referred to as the “Drug Mart Plaza” on Detroit Avenue in Lakewood.

Quaker Steak and Lube is a family friendly restaurant with a motor-themed atmosphere.

They offer 25 signature wing sauces in over 41 locations.



You also have a reputation to uphold, as Jim does. Are you a liar? Because you didn't know about this variance?

Please be the good example that you continue to describe.

I personally have concern over the extended hours and wonder whether the City offered free parking to Quaker Steak and Lube, because they suddenly had all of the parking places available at Kauffman Park, because they closed the park early.

Betsy Voinovich

Betsy - I can see where Chris is frustrated with Jim's statements.

In order for Jim to be taken seriously, both as a source and as a "journalist" there has to be some accuracies. You cannot, consistantly, make bold statements, follow them up with unnamed sources, and expect people to believe you when there is a large portion of time you overlook that little part about being correct or not. A lie is a lie, there is no question about that - I'm sure Jim does not mean to fall into that category but inaccurate information is a false statement. Why do you undervalue the part about "being wrong" - as I see this as taking away a great deal of validity as well as harming ones reputation for being viable and reliable? You claim Jim does not lie but is wrong on occassion - I guess it depends on which side of the fence you are throwing from. ("No, I didn't hit my sister, but my hand did bounce off of her face." Is this a lie, or just a case of "getting it wrong").

Valid sources matter, they really do. It can turn an inaccurate statement into a lie quickly. Referencing a bartender/manager is great - if the quote had anything to do with his/her job, but since he/she was neither the architect, designer, or in on the planning of the Lakewood QS&L, one may want to refrain from using this person as the source to throw out such a large bomb (patio in the rear of the building). The ststement about having the pation in the rear, as mentioned by Jim, really caused an uproar. Intentional uproar or not, bad source, bad statement - refrain should have been put in place.

Corey

[Christopher Bindel]

Liar! Really. So it is a crime for me to lie about QSL patio but not for a councilman who
is the head of the committee that oversaw the very project(s) he mislead about? OK got it.

So you didn't lie, but you were mistaken and misunderstood something. I get that, it happens to the best of us. What makes you so sure that that is not what happened to Shawn and that he is lying? I said earlier in the other thread that I miss understood what you were looking for, whose to say Shawn didn't also. Also Shawn has only been the Public Works Committee chair for 7 months and a Councilman for a year and a half. The information he gave you was information on things discussed during his term (which is the same information I thought you were seeking), however we have come to realize, if I am wrong please correct me, that the information you were seeking actually spreads over 8 years. Do you not think that it is at all possible that this was all just a misunderstanding and not a purposeful act to mislead?

Try to leave out past animosity between you two out about it and try to consider it with a clear head.

I will be honest, as I always try to be. I did not check any plans. I was talking with
someone from QSL about a future restaurant and patio. I did not give it the same
level of seriousness as say losing our parks,

But when you reported your false statement you did so with all seriousness.

As for the rest of my reply I will just leave it to Corey who did a fine job, and I could not add any more to it.

[Grace O'Malley]

There's that miss understood again! Who is she?
I want to know!

[Christopher Bindel]

She is an evil sirens that confuses and misleads people!


Or just makes them misspell things (which is where she gets me very regularly!).

[Betsy Voinovich]

Corey Rossen
Betsy - I can see where Chris is frustrated with Jim's statements.

In order for Jim to be taken seriously, both as a source and as a "journalist" there has to be some accuracies. You cannot, consistantly, make bold statements, follow them up with unnamed sources, and expect people to believe you when there is a large portion of time you overlook that little part about being correct or not. A lie is a lie, there is no question about that - I'm sure Jim does not mean to fall into that category but inaccurate information is a false statement. Why do you undervalue the part about "being wrong" - as I see this as taking away a great deal of validity as well as harming ones reputation for being viable and reliable? You claim Jim does not lie but is wrong on occassion - I guess it depends on which side of the fence you are throwing from. ("No, I didn't hit my sister, but my hand did bounce off of her face." Is this a lie, or just a case of "getting it wrong").

Valid sources matter, they really do. It can turn an inaccurate statement into a lie quickly. Referencing a bartender/manager is great - if the quote had anything to do with his/her job, but since he/she was neither the architect, designer, or in on the planning of the Lakewood QS&L, one may want to refrain from using this person as the source to throw out such a large bomb (patio in the rear of the building). The ststement about having the pation in the rear, as mentioned by Jim, really caused an uproar. Intentional uproar or not, bad source, bad statement - refrain should have been put in place.

Corey

Hi Corey,

Getting things wrong because your information wasn't good is a hazard of this kind of discussion. I was told there was a deal to sell Kauffman Park to Cleveland Clinic by an elected official who when questioned about it two hours later by another mom told her that the deal had "fallen through." In two hours.

So I get to conclude, wow, something's up with Kauffman Park. Did they let Little Links go to seed on purpose, and stop sending the police over there, so it would get "blighted" on purpose, so people would fear it, and there would be less resistance when they tried to sell it? I don't know. I know something was up. I know we should keep that one last remaining patch of public green space in the center of the city. Or, that is my opinion.

I know that some kind of offer was made on the entire Board and Grant school property by the Jacobs brothers back before the market fell through. Was that when people in positions of power started thinking that that space, though very much needed by the many families who live there, for a school, would be better off sold.. I don't know. Again this is my opinion. We have been lied to over and over. I have it documented it in emails. ONe statement, then another, conflicting ones. It's nuts.

I think when Jim says, "Look over there!" it's because so many times things are dropped on us like bombs, like passing something in one reading, in order to GUARANTEE that we can say nothing, it's a done deal.

And even I have had A LOT of people now who tell me things and tell me that I can't say where I got the info from, because of who they work for-- What's a citizen to do?

I appreciate what you are saying however. The best case scenario is that it is all accurate right from the beginning, from named sources, even with minutes from meetings, but by then, whoops you blinked, there goes being able to go in the park and catch fireflies with your kids in the summer. And I loved playing miniature golf with my one toddler who got a chance to.

I think Jim would fair well for accuracy, looking back at things he's said, and things that have happened and which players were involved. As I was told about the School Board, by the time they get to the meeting it's WAY too late. Well, the meeting is the only thing that's public. Anyway, I think this is a good discussion for this forum, and I think, probably to quote Gary Rice, that we have to try to do our best.

And on that note, I must RUN to Fairview Park for the fireworks.

Thanks for the patience and your part in this.

Betsy

[Corey Rossen]

And even I have had A LOT of people now who tell me things and tell me that I can't say where I got the info from, because of who they work for-- What's a citizen to do?

IBetsy

I think refrain would be in order. If you cannot back up a statement other than by saying "trust me, I know so, someone who I cannot mention told me so" one should probably not mention it. Example: In children it equates to "I have a secret but I am not allowed to tell you." The most common response then would be "then don't bring it up."

I guess, in short, "then don't bring it up" is the category i would place many of these kind of false/inaccurate/premature statements.

The Kaufman Park issue, obviously, is completely different thread material.

Corey

[Betsy Voinovich]

And even I have had A LOT of people now who tell me things and tell me that I can't say where I got the info from, because of who they work for-- What's a citizen to do?

IBetsy

I think refrain would be in order. If you cannot back up a statement other than by saying "trust me, I know so, someone who I cannot mention told me so" one should probably not mention it. Example: In children it equates to "I have a secret but I am not allowed to tell you." The most common response then would be "then don't bring it up."

I guess, in short, "then don't bring it up" is the category i would place many of these kind of false/inaccurate/premature statements.

The Kaufman Park issue, obviously, is completely different thread material.

Hi Corey--

I disagree. The Kauffman Park discussion is when I learned how easily public officials lie. If they are going to be like that, then we have to be vigilant about what the truth is, especially in terms of how our tax money is actually being spent, and how our city and our children are being cared for. Is that a different thread?

Not one of the people who told me that I couldn't reveal that they told me something was lying-- what they said proved true-- I don't think I have quoted them as much as I have said, "we should pay attention to this." We have our own ways. My dad reminds me that I'm lucky to be in a place where so many people care so much.

The fireworks were great. A little low to the ground. A Fairview Park policeman told me that their generator broke down last night and they had no rides. He said it was always something.

Betsy Voinovich

[Corey Rossen]

then we have to be vigilant about what the truth is

Betsy Voinovich

Agreed - in all cases, from all sides, no matter who you "support".

Is that a different thread?
[/quote]Simply - yes. Staying on subject is a huge issue on the Deck. Separate issue equals a separate thread. I understand your point about lies, but it still warrants a separate thread.

Not one of the people who told me that I couldn't reveal that they told me something was lying-- what they said proved true-- I don't think I have quoted them as much as I have said, "we should pay attention to this." We have our own ways. My dad reminds me that I'm lucky to be in a place where so many people care so much.

Opinion until you can prove it. Without admitting sources you simply cannot prove anything. Your dad is wise, I'm sure he has sources. You are wise, but it is hard to prove without sources. I do not mean this in a negative manner.

I heard that a comet will hit the Earth in 2047, but will cause little harm. Could happen, will make me appear wise, but I do not have a source. Or do I have a source, could be NASA, but I cannot tell anyone. Does this make me wise if it happens, inaccurate and wrong if it does not happen, or unreliable because I do not have a source? Or...did I hear it from a concession stand worker/manager at the Glenn Research Center Cafeteria? Either way, you heard it from me first.

Glad to hear the fireworks went well.

Corey