Is Bobby Ruining The City's Brand?

The jumping off discussion area for the rest of the Deck. All things Lakewood.
Please check out our other sections. As we refile many discussions from the past into
their proper sections please check them out and offer suggestions.

Moderator: Jim O'Bryan

J Hrlec
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:17 pm

Re: Is Bobby Ruining The City's Brand?

Post by J Hrlec »

Peter Grossetti wrote:There is always this option ... ban yard/garage sales completely and do this twice a year:

http://downtownlakewood.org/citywide-streetsale/


Input is always good, this way the city can come up with reasonable set of guidelines.

Example below:

David Anderson wrote:Hello, all –

I’ll start off with an amusing wrinkle: The sale “Bobby” conducted is illegal under Lakewood’s current law (sales can only be held in the back yard or garage). So, while his story may be seen as a symbol what should be allowed to continue, a change to the ordinance is needed for Bobby to legally continue to do what he’s doing. I love irony. It’s so…well… ironic.

The proposed yard/garage sale ordinance was referred to the Housing Committee which I chair. The Committee held a hearing this past Monday at 6:00 p.m. to discuss what should really be considered the ordinance’s initial draft. A number of points, additions and adjustments were suggested. Council and the community should expect a second draft in the near future and I will commit to posting it here before the next Housing Committee hearing which is tentatively scheduled for July 9.

First off, as Director Butler stated, nowhere in the proposed ordinance does it suggest that the city require a yard/garage sale permit of any type. In addition, no council member attending Monday’s hearing suggested such a permit should be required.

Moving on, the first question in my mind is whether Lakewood needs to adjust/strengthen our rules regarding yard/garage sales at all. After conducting some research on my own and hearing Law Director Butler’s opening comments Monday night along with additional comments from Director Siley, I feel Lakewood would benefit from a restructured ordinance that supports yard/garage sales and provides clear and defined standards. Here’s why:

1. There are a handful of individuals who currently operate yard/garage sales on a habitual basis which places stress on a neighborhood and immediate neighbors. Steps are in place for folks to run a home based business as long as the business does not adversely impact the neighborhood. (Running a wood working shop out of a garage would likely not be allowed.) However, nothing is in place to prevent a neighbor from operating a yard/garage sale every day of the year. We have some residents who are currently holding weekly sales. One, two, four times a year is one thing. A weekly sale over a number of months is another.

I realize many might not think this is a high priority. However, it’s really important to neighbors living next to someone who’s operating a sale every week during most months of the year.

2. In addition but related, residents do not have access to a complete set of rules. For example, the time of day a sale can be held, number of sales in one calendar year and the duration of any one sale are currently undefined. While nobody is holding a 24 hour seven day a week yard/garage sale, a small handful are holding sales so frequently that the neighborhood is being impacted and neighbors are not able to enjoy their own yards.

As the Housing Committee chair, it is my role to listen to residents, hear the thoughts of my colleagues on Council as well as work with the administration to aim to strike a balance between preventing a house from becoming a de facto flea market while helping individuals hold successful yard/garage sales. Here are some specific points brought forward by the draft ordinance and discussed at the committee hearing.

Permits – Currently not required. Not suggested in the proposed draft ordinance. Not one person at last night’s hearing spoke in favor of requiring a permit.

Location on property – Currently only allowed in rear yard and/or garage. (Permission can be granted if the resident does not have a back yard or garage.) Perhaps we should allow for front yard use as well.

Time of day – Currently not specified. Proposed draft suggests 8:00 a.m.-6:00 p.m. which seems reasonable.

Number of sales allowed in one calendar year – Currently not specified. Proposed draft suggests up to two a year per property. Perhaps we should consider up to four per year.

Duration for any one sale – Currently not specified. Proposed draft suggests up to two consecutive days. Perhaps we should consider up to four consecutive days (Thur. –Sun.).

Signs – This will be a tricky issue because other ordinances exist that regulate signs in residential districts. Perhaps we should consider three signs temporarily displayed on the day before and during the sale.

Finally, I think questions regarding enforcement are important. The city will not be tracking yard/garage sales by sending a force out on the weekends to see whether those holding sales have gone over the limit. If passed, such an ordinance would, however, provide the city with a tool by which to approach the target of a complaint and have a conversation before things get out of hand (as it has already with a few situations).

Yard/garage sales are part of Lakewood’s fabric. I love them for the opportunity to meet neighbors, hear what’s happening on the street and buy the occasional $2 shovel. I have to keep in mind, though, that just because I don’t live next to someone running a weekly sale during every non winter month doesn’t mean that this isn’t an important issue.

Again, I commit to posting the new draft of the ordinance before the next Housing Committee hearing.

I appreciate the LO and the opportunity to post on this forum.

Yours in service,
David W. Anderson
Councilman, Ward 1
216-789-6463
john crino
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 4:26 pm

Re: Is Bobby Ruining The City's Brand?

Post by john crino »

I think "Bobby" is just causing a huge uproar. Maybe he needs to move to a more "yard sale friendly" city.
User avatar
Jim O'Bryan
Posts: 14196
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
Location: Lakewood
Contact:

Re: Is Bobby Ruining The City's Brand?

Post by Jim O'Bryan »

Hey John Crino

the other day in a post you were describing a yard sale, and he sounded like no yard sale
I have ever seen, but you were very descriptive, so I drove around, and found some
examples, not these were not posed either but I am interested in hearing John are
'these the yard sales you are speaking of?

Image

Image

Image

I do not think these were yard sales.

.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
User avatar
Jim O'Bryan
Posts: 14196
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
Location: Lakewood
Contact:

Re: Is Bobby Ruining The City's Brand?

Post by Jim O'Bryan »

Perhaps they never saw...



or from the buyer's side...




.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Chris Cape
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:27 pm

Re: Is Bobby Ruining The City's Brand?

Post by Chris Cape »

First off, I realize this is a little late in joining the discussion, but I wanted to offer my two cents as someone who has lived in Lakewood, but grew up in a community where both of my parents were very involved in local government. My father was a township trustee for 32 years in Liberty Township in Delaware County and my mother served on the Olentangy Local School District Board of Education for 16 years. During their time a paid attention to what was going on, in part because it interested me and in part because the area was small in population and everyone new you, so it always paid to be prepared.

My thoughts...

On the garage sale limits - I think it is ridiculous to limit someone two the number of sales. Hours and days are one thing, total sales are another. The exception would be if someone was trying to run a business and used the "garage/yard sale" as a front. Then I could see why the city would want to restrict the number of sales because a business in an area zoned residential would be a violation of city zoning laws. But we are not talking about everyday garage sales. So, it should be shelved and dismissed for more important issues.

On signage - I couldn't agree with some posters that signage is a little extreme - businesses, residents, politicians. From what I have read, the SCOTUS says you can resrict signage in all cases except for political purposes. Even then you can restrict sizes of signs. Most accepted community standards restrict political campaign signs to the time from Labor Day until the election, while others restrict it to the 30 days before the election. However, some communities have chosen to adhere to tradition. I have heard that Silver Lake in Summit County, permits candidate signage, but due to tradition, the residents often vote against candidates that place signs in the community. In other words, if you want their votes, don't litter their community with signs.

As for signs on telephone poles and street poles, those are blatent violations of city and state laws, as well as tresspassing, as the utility signs are owned by the utility, not the community.

What is disturbing is the lack of enforcement by council and the city zoning department. As a trustee, you are the executive, legislative, and judicial branch all in one. My father would often remove any sign, political, real estate, or business that was within the road right of way. In rural areas, the right of way is typically 30 feet from the center of the road. If you had your sign on the other side of the ditch, you were good, otherwise, it would be removed.

Doing this kept things clean and presentable. That is not the case in Lakewood, or any city or suburban area for that matter.

A lot can be done to improve the extreme placement of signs in the community. Like any law, it needs to be enforced by the city or village. Something that I don't see Lakewood too interested in doing.
Grace O'Malley
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:31 pm

Re: Is Bobby Ruining The City's Brand?

Post by Grace O'Malley »

Yesterday, while driving down Riverside, I noticed the Lakewood Citywide Garage Sale signs posted on a utility pole at Riverside and McKinley. At the corner of Riverside and Madison there was a sign placed on the treelawn.

Pretty funny. So the city is bothered by individuals placing signs on poles and treelawns but its perfectly ok with them when they, or a sanctioned part of them, does it?
Peter Grossetti
Posts: 1533
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:43 pm

Re: Is Bobby Ruining The City's Brand?

Post by Peter Grossetti »

... and while on my evening run yesterday, I noticed a Citywide Garage Sale sign on a pole at Cove and Detroit (the very same pole that has an LPD serveillance camera mounted to it!!!)
"So, let's make the most of this beautiful day.
Since we're together we might as well say:
Would you be mine? Could you be mine?
Won't you be my neighbor?"

~ Fred (Mr. Rogers) Rogers
john crino
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 4:26 pm

Re: Is Bobby Ruining The City's Brand?

Post by john crino »

One of the example I had in mind is on w140th on the way to Trisket....They are set up any day its not raining....and I'd be pissed if I lived next to them...

....and yeah I know...thats not Lakewood
Betsy Voinovich
Posts: 1261
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:53 am

Re: Is Bobby Ruining The City's Brand?

Post by Betsy Voinovich »

Grace O'Malley wrote:Yesterday, while driving down Riverside, I noticed the Lakewood Citywide Garage Sale signs posted on a utility pole at Riverside and McKinley. At the corner of Riverside and Madison there was a sign placed on the treelawn.

Pretty funny. So the city is bothered by individuals placing signs on poles and treelawns but its perfectly ok with them when they, or a sanctioned part of them, does it?


Hi Grace,

Yeah I noticed that too. When the City or one of its groups wants to post signs they post them all over the place. Apparently (though I haven't looked it up-- I think Chris Bindel has the chapter and verse on it, maybe he'll come in) it's illegal to post signs on public property? So all of our garage sale signs, lost pet signs, meetings being held, bands playing, all of those are illegal?

It might be time to find out about making certain postings legal if they meet certain requirements. Like they are up for a certain amount of time with the date clearly displayed, and addresses or phone numbers so if they aren't removed in a timely manner, the person posting the sign can be tracked down. This would work for garage sales, meetings, lost pets.

If it is illegal and unsightly and we aren't going to be those kind of people anymore, no stray paper anywhere polluting our landscape or ruining the experience for our visitors, then I guess it should apply to ALL signs.

It certainly shouldn't be that when the residents do it, it's illegal, when the city does, for whatever it's for, it's fine.

Anyway, my greater point is that Councilman Anderson suggested that anyone who has suggestions, PLEASE either attend the meetings or email the Council. Many on the Council have representing the people as their goal, but to represent the people, they must hear from the people. It think I'll start a separate thread for that.

Happy Monday.

Betsy Voinovich
Christopher Bindel
Posts: 277
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 2:57 pm
Location: Delaware by Lakeland, Lakewood
Contact:

Re: Is Bobby Ruining The City's Brand?

Post by Christopher Bindel »

Although I did not know it off the top of my head, It was easy to find the ordinance that designates the rules regarding signage. Anyone who is ever trying to figure out if something is legal or what the regulations of something are in Lakewood I highly recommend the link below. It is the complete codified ordinances of Lakewood and is searchable. It is extremely user friendly. Upon making a search it not only pulls up everything that includes your search criteria but highlights those words throughout.

http://www.conwaygreene.com/lakewood.htm

Now for the signage ordinance:

The Lakewood Codified Ordinances wrote:1151.02 REGULATIONS.
(a) Commercial signs shall not be permitted in R1L, R1M, R1H, L, R2, ML, or MH Districts except where authorized elsewhere by these Ordinances; with the exception that a single, double-sided real estate sign not exceeding five (5) square feet of area per side advertising the property on which it is located for sale or rent shall be permitted.


(b) Non-commercial signs shall be permitted in R1L, R1M, R1H, L, R2, ML, or MH Districts, subject to the following regulations:


(1) No sign shall exceed six (6) square feet in total area.


(2) No sign shall be displayed on any utility pole, or in any tree lawn or public right-of-way.


A. The Director of Public Works may remove any sign(s) posted on any utility pole, or in any tree lawn or public right-of-way.


B. The Director of Public Works may determine the cost of removal and assess such costs to the person(s), business, organization, or entity that posted the sign(s).

(Ord. 91-95. Passed 10-7-96.)

Post Reply