Coming Fast And Furious

[Kevin Butler]

And about the limit of garage sales in Bay Village, Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, Euclid, Fairview Park, Garfield Heights, Independence, Parma, Rocky River, Shaker Heights and Westlake- I never knew the City of Lakewood wanted so badly to copy Bay Village, Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, Euclid, Fairview Park, Garfield Heights, Independence, Parma, Rocky River, Shaker Heights and Westlake. I always thought Lakewood was aiming to be different. We do things our own way. We have every resource at our doorsteps and offer something none of these cities had and never will have. You know, the stuff prospective Lakewood home owners see in brochures. ... Yet all along our officials have been dying to be like Parma and Fairview.

My citing laws on the books of other cities should not suggest "the City of Lakewood," if you mean its government, wants to copy any other communities, or that our officials are "dying to be like Parma or Fairview." It suggests a reasonable restriction on the number of garage sales on any one residential property per year is hardly a far-flung idea.

[Jim O'Bryan]

My citing laws on the books of other cities should not suggest "the City of Lakewood," if you mean its government, wants to copy any other communities, or that our officials are "dying to be like Parma or Fairview." It suggests a reasonable restriction on the number of garage sales on any one residential property per year is hardly a far-flung idea.

Kevin

Once again thank you for coming in. You made your suggestions to council, and explained your
reasons.

As you have stated, it has been turned over to committee so let's see what comes out of
committee and go from there.

I would also encourage all to let your council members to know how you feel on this. Especially
the members of the committee. If you cannot attend a meeting do it in writing, and post it here.
So we can get a better feeling of what "the community wants from this."

Thanks again.

.

[Kevin Butler]

So this was "introduced because Lakewood has no other legal way to enforce against constant sales at any one property, which is a known problem, albeit not a widespread one."

Let me get this straight, So you are saying this is to stop a few, and that most residents can have
a yard sales unless you are one of those people.

I'm not sure what you mean by "one of those people," Jim. If you mean the very few people who have almost weekly garage sales in a residential neighborhood, you're correct.

[Jim O'Bryan]

I'm not sure what you mean by "one of those people," Jim. If you mean the very few people who have almost weekly garage sales in a residential neighborhood, you're correct.

Kevin

Thank you for the clarification.

I wince every time I hear of a law, with a stated wink, wink, nod, nod exception.

And as you are now the lucky person spending too much time in court over Hidden Village,
I am sure you agree.


.

[Betsy Voinovich]

I quote Will Brown's post because it fairly goes to why I introduced this ordinance on behalf of the administration. Not because I don't like garage sales, but because unrestricted garage sales do not preserve the residential character of our residential neighborhoods.

The standards in the proposed law -- which were introduced in draft form and will likely change for the better, frankly, in the committee process -- were not introduced to punish the law-abiding, or to take toy sales away from Jim O'Bryan's favorite child vendor. They were not born of a cynical conspiracy to ruin people's days or take food out of mouths. They were introduced because Lakewood has no other legal way to enforce against constant sales at any one property, which is a known problem, albeit not a widespread one. (Ordinances rarely exist, after all, to prevent widespread problems but instead exist to impose community standards on the outliers. We do not use ordinances to congratulate the vast numbers of honest citizens in our midst; we use them to convict the very few petty thieves.)




Hi Kevin,

Thanks for jumping in here to provide information and perspective. It always makes me feel better to hear from you.

I have to tell you that restricting the law DOES punish law-abiding citizens and it DOES take toy sales away from the child vendor. You aren't attempting to change this ordinance in order to do this, but this is in fact, what you will accomplish.

It will now be ILLEGAL for that kid to be out there with his Hotwheels. Does he have a permit for that sign? No he does not. Is it one of his family's allowed two days? No it is not. Are you saying that of course you will turn a blind eye to kids having fun? Which kids? Selling what?

It's like the response one of my friends got about Kauffman Park. The restrictions weren't for people like her. She was told she could still come there, walk her dog, walk with friends, sit on the stands and chat or just look at the moon.

Well, one, that doesn't sound too good in terms of discrimination. And two, really? How does she know that? It says CLOSED. It is illegal for her to go in there. Is it illegal for me to go in there? I'm usually just walking and talking, but sometimes I'm laughing, the kids like to sing, and I am never as well-dressed as she is. What about me?

Can I clean out my garage as we intend to do this weekend, assemble all the toddler bikes and Playskool jungle gym stuff, and oversized plastic golf clubs and bowling pins, and yes, Hotwheels! in front of our garage and put out a sign that says, "Big toys for little kids! Great prices!" I don't know whether it will be Saturday or Sunday. It depends on the weather. Or it might not happen at all, if it stays this hot.

Is that one of my official two days? Do I have to get a permit? Does this permit cost money? What if I don't do it? Do I lose my one day? Did I waste my permit? Do these other cities make their citizens get sign permits? Does it cost money?

Are you guys hiring a new person to keep track of everybody this way now-- to make these new files and keep track of all of this, rather than to add to the ordinance something like-- "Week long garage sales are not permitted." Or "After three days, sale items must be put away." How about that? I think that is an ordinance change we could live with.

This would get the job done in terms of "preserving Lakewoods' residential character" if by that you mean, no-one wants ongoing sales on someone's porch, or in someone's driveway.

But there is a lot more to "residential character" than this.

This threatens to damage residential character.

You said you weren't trying to "ruin anyone's day," and yes this will ruin my day if I can't do this anymore-- but more-- it will ruin the days of my neighbors who LOVE getting these kind of deals for their new babies and toddlers AND THEY LOVE MEETING THOSE FOLKS DOWN THE BLOCK who not only have great stuff for kids, but have advice for new parents, and might like to make a few mom and dad friends on the street. Easy and fun and safe. Middle class. One of the last places we don't have to put our residents in jail-- which is what happens with too many regulations. Planned communities are already in jail. We don't live there for a reason. PLEASE WORK TO PRESERVE WHAT IS SPECIAL ABOUT LAKEWOOD. TRUST YOUR RESIDENTS. Don't punish us for the "Outliers" as you call them.

You say that you want to preserve Lakewood's residential character. This IS Lakewood's residential character. Look deeper into what the true nature of Lakewood's neighborhoods is. Give us more credit. Let us celebrate being a community of neighbors who KNOW each other. Who like living close to each other. Who like sharing clothes and toys and advice over what to do about gutters or who to vote for in the next school board race. We are a community, and a strong one. We don't need punishing. We deserve celebrating.

And to another of your points, you ARE taking food out of people's mouths. Not a lot in the case of my family. Last time for us it was one dinner at Pearl of the Orient. The kids pooled their money and took US out, Mom and Dad, with the money they made selling their stuff. It is a dinner together that we would not have had otherwise.

Is that worth contacting the city? Getting a permit? Having the forethought with a big family to know that we will clean the garage and be ready for a sale on THIS day? And we'll make sixty bucks.

No. And I have friends who are really great at garage sales. Who make a thousand dollars because they are selling good stuff. Who have their labels ready, and lemonade made, and people to fill in when someone has lunch. This is a nice addition to income. In these times it might even be an important one. It is also really great for our neighbors to be able to get good stuff, from trustworthy people down the street, for a low cost. Again, this IS our residential character.


Thank you for listening to me go through the examples of why it's important that we are allowed our freedom. It seems that you could restrict the rules in a different way. It seems that you should not abuse your citizens by punishing them for the excesses of the few. It does not work to imply, or say outright, that you will turn a blind-eye to those that are comporting themselves civilly.

It's legal or it's illegal. I'm either sneaking into the park with my kids or I'm not. I'm either conducting an ILLEGAL YARD SALE or I'm not.

I respectfully ask that you look into alternative methods for changing the ordinance. I will formally write this up to you and to the rest of the Council, and encourage my neighbors to do the same. I will repost the contacts you had in your post:

Let your councilmembers know how you feel. The meetings are always noticed here: http://onelakewood.com/CityCouncil/MeetingNotices and the chair always asks for public comment. Councilmembers' contact information may be found here: http://onelakewood.com/CityCouncil/Members. I'm happy to answer any questions on the subject too.

Again, thank you for the respect you always show to the people of this community.

Betsy Voinovich

[J Hrlec]

Other than the fact that these proposed changes are only in discussion (I believe) and not something that has been decided, how many people here truly believe the city and it's residents will report poor "Bobby". Once again, if new ordinances are created, isn't this so we can truly enforce those "issues" where the residents would report it? If "Bobby" is being a nuisance and the neighbors call... well maybe he should not be out there (doesn't matter about age or sale content)

I do not for one minute believe the city is going to go around looking for these instances without proper provocation, but when reported they can now act based upon rules.

That being said, the yelps about losing personal freedoms and restrictions on this matter are quite comical IMO.

[Christopher Bindel]

Chris

I have my reasons for doing this my way.

I will not be bullied, by you or anyone else on this.

But your perfectly happy bulling others with your unsupported "facts"

[Kevin Butler]

It will now be ILLEGAL for that kid to be out there with his Hotwheels. Does he have a permit for that sign? No he does not. Is it one of his family's allowed two days? No it is not. Are you saying that of course you will turn a blind eye to kids having fun? Which kids? Selling what?

...

Can I clean out my garage as we intend to do this weekend, assemble all the toddler bikes and Playskool jungle gym stuff, and oversized plastic golf clubs and bowling pins, and yes, Hotwheels! in front of our garage and put out a sign that says, "Big toys for little kids! Great prices!" I don't know whether it will be Saturday or Sunday. It depends on the weather. Or it might not happen at all, if it stays this hot.

Is that one of my official two days? Do I have to get a permit? Does this permit cost money? What if I don't do it? Do I lose my one day? Did I waste my permit? Do these other cities make their citizens get sign permits? Does it cost money?

You've made mention of permits several times, and others have too. There are no permits for or advance notice of garage sales required by existing law or by the proposals I've initially advanced to Council. The city will not be collecting any fees. I'm not sure from where you arrived at that information.

[Ivor Karabatkovic]

Is that one of my official two days? Do I have to get a permit? Does this permit cost money? What if I don't do it? Do I lose my one day? Did I waste my permit? Do these other cities make their citizens get sign permits? Does it cost money?

You've made mention of permits several times, and others have too. There are no permits for or advance notice of garage sales required by existing law or by the proposals I've initially advanced to Council. The city will not be collecting any fees. I'm not sure from where you arrived at that information.

I think she's just asking the details of the law, and if residents will need to file permits or paperwork to prove that this is only their first or second garage sale of the year. How will the city be tracking that? How will it be enforced? If there isn't any paperwork, will it be my word against the city's?

If a resident holds a garage sale on a weekend, let's say a Saturday.. and doesn't sell enough to make room so they sell again the following day on Sunday, is that two garage sales or one? Same stuff. Should be one, right? Let's say it rains that Sunday and they postpone the garage sale until the next weekend, is that their second garage sale? All valid questions that will help residents reading this understand the law.

As for my post-
I get that it "suggests that the limit on garage sales is not a far-flung idea", and it's not, but since when do our elected officials think "well hey, they're doing it, so we can too!" That's not really forward thinking or original. It makes our elected officials posers. And where do you draw the line. It might be pitbulls, parks and garage sales now, but where do you draw the line for future hot-button topics, and since when does "...they have a law like that" go from a cop-out to being a legitimate reason to pass any and all new legislation?

That's what I mean by copying the other cities and being like them. That excuse has been used so many times when any new legislation meets its opposition. So when do elected officials stop going to other cities for ideas and policies, and start making their own that fit the demographic and characteristics of Lakewood? When do they become courageous enough to create their own ideas and listen to the residents, rather than just say "the neighboring cities are doing it, so we are too." and call it a day.

If we're copying laws, pretty soon we will end up like those cities, in some way or another.

[Peter Grossetti]

TRUST YOUR RESIDENTS.

Sing it at the top of your voice, Betsy!

[David Anderson]

Hello, all –

I’ll start off with an amusing wrinkle: The sale “Bobby” conducted is illegal under Lakewood’s current law (sales can only be held in the back yard or garage). So, while his story may be seen as a symbol what should be allowed to continue, a change to the ordinance is needed for Bobby to legally continue to do what he’s doing. I love irony. It’s so…well… ironic.

The proposed yard/garage sale ordinance was referred to the Housing Committee which I chair. The Committee held a hearing this past Monday at 6:00 p.m. to discuss what should really be considered the ordinance’s initial draft. A number of points, additions and adjustments were suggested. Council and the community should expect a second draft in the near future and I will commit to posting it here before the next Housing Committee hearing which is tentatively scheduled for July 9.

First off, as Director Butler stated, nowhere in the proposed ordinance does it suggest that the city require a yard/garage sale permit of any type. In addition, no council member attending Monday’s hearing suggested such a permit should be required.

Moving on, the first question in my mind is whether Lakewood needs to adjust/strengthen our rules regarding yard/garage sales at all. After conducting some research on my own and hearing Law Director Butler’s opening comments Monday night along with additional comments from Director Siley, I feel Lakewood would benefit from a restructured ordinance that supports yard/garage sales and provides clear and defined standards. Here’s why:

1. There are a handful of individuals who currently operate yard/garage sales on a habitual basis which places stress on a neighborhood and immediate neighbors. Steps are in place for folks to run a home based business as long as the business does not adversely impact the neighborhood. (Running a wood working shop out of a garage would likely not be allowed.) However, nothing is in place to prevent a neighbor from operating a yard/garage sale every day of the year. We have some residents who are currently holding weekly sales. One, two, four times a year is one thing. A weekly sale over a number of months is another.

I realize many might not think this is a high priority. However, it’s really important to neighbors living next to someone who’s operating a sale every week during most months of the year.

2. In addition but related, residents do not have access to a complete set of rules. For example, the time of day a sale can be held, number of sales in one calendar year and the duration of any one sale are currently undefined. While nobody is holding a 24 hour seven day a week yard/garage sale, a small handful are holding sales so frequently that the neighborhood is being impacted and neighbors are not able to enjoy their own yards.

As the Housing Committee chair, it is my role to listen to residents, hear the thoughts of my colleagues on Council as well as work with the administration to aim to strike a balance between preventing a house from becoming a de facto flea market while helping individuals hold successful yard/garage sales. Here are some specific points brought forward by the draft ordinance and discussed at the committee hearing.

Permits – Currently not required. Not suggested in the proposed draft ordinance. Not one person at last night’s hearing spoke in favor of requiring a permit.

Location on property – Currently only allowed in rear yard and/or garage. (Permission can be granted if the resident does not have a back yard or garage.) Perhaps we should allow for front yard use as well.

Time of day – Currently not specified. Proposed draft suggests 8:00 a.m.-6:00 p.m. which seems reasonable.

Number of sales allowed in one calendar year – Currently not specified. Proposed draft suggests up to two a year per property. Perhaps we should consider up to four per year.

Duration for any one sale – Currently not specified. Proposed draft suggests up to two consecutive days. Perhaps we should consider up to four consecutive days (Thur. –Sun.).

Signs – This will be a tricky issue because other ordinances exist that regulate signs in residential districts. Perhaps we should consider three signs temporarily displayed on the day before and during the sale.

Finally, I think questions regarding enforcement are important. The city will not be tracking yard/garage sales by sending a force out on the weekends to see whether those holding sales have gone over the limit. If passed, such an ordinance would, however, provide the city with a tool by which to approach the target of a complaint and have a conversation before things get out of hand (as it has already with a few situations).

Yard/garage sales are part of Lakewood’s fabric. I love them for the opportunity to meet neighbors, hear what’s happening on the street and buy the occasional $2 shovel. I have to keep in mind, though, that just because I don’t live next to someone running a weekly sale during every non winter month doesn’t mean that this isn’t an important issue.

Again, I commit to posting the new draft of the ordinance before the next Housing Committee hearing.

I appreciate the LO and the opportunity to post on this forum.

Yours in service,
David W. Anderson
Councilman, Ward 1
216-789-6463

[J Hrlec]

TRUST YOUR RESIDENTS.

Maybe is just me who can't figure it out, but are you saying we shouldn't have any laws or ordinance's at all because it is simply a matter of trusting residents to do the right thing? If so, I need to move to this Utopia where 100% of the people automatically do the right thing!

I think we've already partially clarified the nuisance ordinance probably would not fit the needs to enforce abuse of garage sales. Why would this be any different that other areas we have and use rules / ordinances for in the last decades?

The concept of trusting residents (like myself) is great but as a statement in this discussion not sure it makes much sense.

Just my opinion.

[J Hrlec]

Hello, all –

I’ll start off with an amusing wrinkle: The sale “Bobby” conducted is illegal under Lakewood’s current law (sales can only be held in the back yard or garage). So, while his story may be seen as a symbol what should be allowed to continue, a change to the ordinance is needed for Bobby to legally continue to do what he’s doing. I love irony. It’s so…well… ironic.

The proposed yard/garage sale ordinance was referred to the Housing Committee which I chair. The Committee held a hearing this past Monday at 6:00 p.m. to discuss what should really be considered the ordinance’s initial draft. A number of points, additions and adjustments were suggested. Council and the community should expect a second draft in the near future and I will commit to posting it here before the next Housing Committee hearing which is tentatively scheduled for July 9.

First off, as Director Butler stated, nowhere in the proposed ordinance does it suggest that the city require a yard/garage sale permit of any type. In addition, no council member attending Monday’s hearing suggested such a permit should be required.

Moving on, the first question in my mind is whether Lakewood needs to adjust/strengthen our rules regarding yard/garage sales at all. After conducting some research on my own and hearing Law Director Butler’s opening comments Monday night along with additional comments from Director Siley, I feel Lakewood would benefit from a restructured ordinance that supports yard/garage sales and provides clear and defined standards. Here’s why:

1. There are a handful of individuals who currently operate yard/garage sales on a habitual basis which places stress on a neighborhood and immediate neighbors. Steps are in place for folks to run a home based business as long as the business does not adversely impact the neighborhood. (Running a wood working shop out of a garage would likely not be allowed.) However, nothing is in place to prevent a neighbor from operating a yard/garage sale every day of the year. We have some residents who are currently holding weekly sales. One, two, four times a year is one thing. A weekly sale over a number of months is another.

I realize many might not think this is a high priority. However, it’s really important to neighbors living next to someone who’s operating a sale every week during most months of the year.

2. In addition but related, residents do not have access to a complete set of rules. For example, the time of day a sale can be held, number of sales in one calendar year and the duration of any one sale are currently undefined. While nobody is holding a 24 hour seven day a week yard/garage sale, a small handful are holding sales so frequently that the neighborhood is being impacted and neighbors are not able to enjoy their own yards.

As the Housing Committee chair, it is my role to listen to residents, hear the thoughts of my colleagues on Council as well as work with the administration to aim to strike a balance between preventing a house from becoming a de facto flea market while helping individuals hold successful yard/garage sales. Here are some specific points brought forward by the draft ordinance and discussed at the committee hearing.

Permits – Currently not required. Not suggested in the proposed draft ordinance. Not one person at last night’s hearing spoke in favor of requiring a permit.

Location on property – Currently only allowed in rear yard and/or garage. (Permission can be granted if the resident does not have a back yard or garage.) Perhaps we should allow for front yard use as well.

Time of day – Currently not specified. Proposed draft suggests 8:00 a.m.-6:00 p.m. which seems reasonable.

Number of sales allowed in one calendar year – Currently not specified. Proposed draft suggests up to two a year per property. Perhaps we should consider up to four per year.

Duration for any one sale – Currently not specified. Proposed draft suggests up to two consecutive days. Perhaps we should consider up to four consecutive days (Thur. –Sun.).

Signs – This will be a tricky issue because other ordinances exist that regulate signs in residential districts. Perhaps we should consider three signs temporarily displayed on the day before and during the sale.

Finally, I think questions regarding enforcement are important. The city will not be tracking yard/garage sales by sending a force out on the weekends to see whether those holding sales have gone over the limit. If passed, such an ordinance would, however, provide the city with a tool by which to approach the target of a complaint and have a conversation before things get out of hand (as it has already with a few situations).

Yard/garage sales are part of Lakewood’s fabric. I love them for the opportunity to meet neighbors, hear what’s happening on the street and buy the occasional $2 shovel. I have to keep in mind, though, that just because I don’t live next to someone running a weekly sale during every non winter month doesn’t mean that this isn’t an important issue.

Again, I commit to posting the new draft of the ordinance before the next Housing Committee hearing.

I appreciate the LO and the opportunity to post on this forum.

Yours in service,
David W. Anderson
Councilman, Ward 1
216-789-6463

Sounds extremely reasonable.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Time of day – Currently not specified. Proposed draft suggests 8:00 a.m.-6:00 p.m. which seems reasonable.

Number of sales allowed in one calendar year – Currently not specified. Proposed draft suggests up to two a year per property. Perhaps we should consider up to four per year.

Duration for any one sale – Currently not specified. Proposed draft suggests up to two consecutive days. Perhaps we should consider up to four consecutive days (Thur. –Sun.).

Signs – This will be a tricky issue because other ordinances exist that regulate signs in residential districts. Perhaps we should consider three signs temporarily displayed on the day before and during the sale.

I appreciate the LO and the opportunity to post on this forum.

Yours in service,
David W. Anderson
Councilman, Ward 1
216-789-6463

Councilman Anderson

As always thank you for reaching out here.

If I may be so bold...

Numbers might be put best per season, per month. I think back to where I needed 5 just
to empty my uncle's house, and think, I would have hated to wait months to do it.

I would rather see the number of sales increase, and keep Sunday off the length of sales.
Call me old fashion, but I believe even if we are not religious we can all use a quiet day.

I applaud you for coming up with an actual time to start and stop, instead of vague
references to the moon or sun and where it is in the sky.

Once again thank you for participating.

.

[Will Brown]

My experience is that estates are liquidated by estate sales, which are held primarily indoors. In fact, there are a number of people who specialize in conducting such sales, and a coterie of people who attend the sales, looking for something interesting. That someone was so inefficient as to conduct multiple sales does not seem like a good reason to allow unlimited commercial activity in a residential neighborhood.

If banning sales on Sundays is what is being suggested, that is another bad idea. Many people work during the week, and weekends, including Sundays, are the only time they can conduct or attend sales. In a free country, I think we should each be able to decide whether we need a quiet day, and which day it should be. Why is it that liberals rail about government restrictions, while at the same time advocating government restrictions.

I do think there are two activities that are similar and should perhaps be considered in developing this legislation. Those would be estate sales, and sales where you are liquidating your personal property because you are moving (I am considering relocating to Europe, and it makes no sense to ship my electronics over there, where they will not work because of the difference in the power). Both of these situations are, in a sense, self-limiting and are unlikely to recur, so perhaps the ordinance should exempt them, or allow more time for the sale.