ACLU- who supports actions like this??

[Ellen Cormier]

Ryan, I guess maybe what you need to ask yourself is how would you react if your high school graduation or your kid's graduation or some very very important event in your life were to be held at a mosque or maybe not even a mosque but a building with a gigantic crescent moon and star? Would that be ok with you? Would you feel the slightest bit uncomfortable? And it doesn't matter what the tradition has been or how unlikely this would be to happen to you, just please think about the scenario and what it would mean to you.

And for the record, Danielle gave great examples of how ACLU is very frequently defending very conservative Christians. I also don't think enough evidence was presented in the article about what the precise issues were with the people filing the complaint. "hurt feelings" was specifically mentioned.

And frankly civil liberties are often mentioned as an important conservative value so I don't quite get the hatred for the ACLU. Of course this principal seems to conflict when gays want to get married or someone wants to build an ecumenical recreation center on manhattan that is funded by Muslims but whatever.

[Ellen Cormier]

I meant hurt feelings was NOT specifically mentioned.

[Ryan Salo]

Traditions is what I have been talking about. Your question has nothing to do with what I asked. The aclu has been trying to stop traditions for a single offended person all over the country. Being uncomfortable is still based on "hurt" feelings. It is amazing how liberals like to think their individual rights are more important than the majority's traditions. If you think your town is too conservative than move, if you think it is too liberal you can do the same. Why can't the liberal minority just be content with others, they keep trying to force the majority into their warped thinking...

[Bryan Schwegler]

Just because something is a "tradition" doesn't always make it right in perpetuity. Morals change, the sense of right and wrong changes, and there are many cases when majority "tradition" has to be pushed back a little when it's found to overstep its boundaries in suppressing the rights of others.

There are tons of examples and if you're actually honest with yourself and paid any attention in US History classes throughout your educational years, you'll be able to think of many of them on your own without needing to ask.

[Ellen Cormier]

Ryan, could you possibly take a moment and think about the scenario I mentioned and think about it? Also your cardboard cutout immpressions of liberals seem to be lacking in any real understanding of liberal positions.

I never said I agreed or disagreed with the case but these things do need to be challenged from time to time. People generally don't want other peoples religions shoved down their throats or conversely don't want other people telling them what religion they can practice or how to practice it. Its a pretty fundamental piece of our constitution and people have a right to challenge instances where this right may be infringed. I do hear that phrase that freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion. How can you not have freedom of religion if it didn't also mean freedom from religion?

If you want to understand "liberals" as you seem to say with disgust why not start with the founding fathers and the constitution? They were for the most part the liberals or progressives of their time. The constitution and its amendments was one of the most liberal documents of it's time. The supreme court exists mainly to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority as I think someone else mentioned already.

[Ellen Cormier]

Also, ryan please give examples of how the "conservative majority" as you imply is so utopianly tolerant of everyone else? Like when gays are persecuted by huge conservative organizations? Is that when? When Muslims are harassed for being suspected terrorists just because of their religion? Is that when? When the poor and struggling are seen as parasites as in the new Ayn randian conservatism becoming more and more popular these days? Is that when? When regular old simple democratic party principals are portrayed as radical Marxist extremeism? Is that when? When a black man who worked hard to get where he got, who wants everyone to have opportunities to succeed and prosper gets portrayed as hitler or a cartoon sociopath on giant billboards? Is that when? So help me out, let's hear of some good examples of conservative tolerance.

And why should anyone move to avoid liberals or conservatives? No one should be persecuted in their own community. That's a ridicuous statement. We absolutely don't need more homogenization and segrgation in this country.

[ryan costa]

if there were no jews and mohammedans and atheists and agnostics and wiccans in America...The various christian sects would be going at each other. The lutherans and methodists and episcopalians and catholics and southern baptists would be petitioning the ACLU to sue each other all over town!

[Ryan Salo]

Conservatives have been trying to leave liberals alone in their own mess for 50 plus years, through urban sprawl but I guess they can't run far enough.

Here is a county map of R vs D. The D's are mostly in highly populated urban areas. The whole benefit of the USA is local governments typically can make their own laws. If a large group of conservative live in an area and want to live one way why should a single individual force change on the majority for hurt feelings? What this kid's parents tried to do to this town is insane and the ACLU backed them.

Liberals need to stop feeling so guilty for being a liberal and just let conservatives live the way they want. Why do you need conservatives to approve of your craziness.

In regards to gays, who cares if 2 guys or gals want civil unions, I am not here to judge that. Just don't compare that abnormality to be equal when it comes to the term marriage. Heck even leftist Obama believes marriage is to be between a man and a woman, it just makes common sense.

I want limited government and less PC crap. Feelings are really over rated by the left.

[sharon kinsella]

It's not abnormality. Why don't you just live in your own little part of the country and leave us liberal queers alone, hating christian boy?

[Ellen Cormier]

Apparently the matter was resolved without moving the graduation ceremony. Also, the fox "news" article left out some important details that the complaint was brought up a year ago, not at the last minute as the article implies. The complaint was filed by a grandmother on behalf of several students.

The resolution was that the religious signs and symbols inside the ceremony would be covered and the giant cross on the outside would be turned off for the ceremony.

@ Ryan C. I don't think it would be fair to catagorize all Christians as intolerant of other religions, non-religions or even different denominations. Also followers of Islam are not Mohammedans. I believe It's an old offensive term made up by nonmuslims. I'm surprised to see it used but maybe you didn't know.

[Ryan Salo]

It's not abnormality. Why don't you just live in your own little part of the country and leave us liberal queers alone, hating christian boy?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abnormal

I actually really like it here. I don't mind diversity. I want to teach my kids that not everyone is the same. That is the same reason I send my kids to public schools. I am not trying to change you, you can still be abnormal in your sexual orientation if you want. Hate is so harsh, I disagree with your lifestyle but I don't hate you. Interesting how that is the first word to use as a liberal. It is supposed to invoke a feeling, but really it is just a self defense mechanism because you feel hurt, which takes me back to the fact that liberals worry about feelings too much. Being offended or hurt isn't the worst thing in the world but liberals really want to stop it as much as possible, just look to sports and schools. Eliminate losers and you will never have any real winners.

I am abnormal in my political beliefs compared to this city. Being abnormal is OK as long as you don't feel the need for others to accept you to feel justified or relevant in some way. Just love yourself and forget about people who disagree with you. Trying to change others on a human level is impossible and frustrates everyone involved.

[Ellen Cormier]

Ryan S., if you are unwilling to self-reflect and possibly not bother to read and think about what other people write why do you post? I don't care for flame wars but you seem to be asking for one often

Unfortunately urban sprawl has more to do with racism and poor planning than anything else. And the end of the day, that sprawl you are enamoured with has only made more government and more taxes necessary to maintain more schools, roads, hospitals, fire and police depts, more politicians etc, etc. So frankly "government hatrers" can give it a rest. We all pay extra in taxes to support your desired homogeneity.

[Ryan Salo]

We all pay extra in taxes to support your desired homogeneity.

Do you have any proof of that? I would think we all pay higher taxes because of people that leach off the system and bloated government. I see it everyday, people that can legitimately work but are on SSI or disability and say "I have cash income from under the table jobs, can I count it" They are a huge problem and the liberals just want to empower more of them and "take from the wealthy" We need to reduce spending by getting out of all of our wars, reduce social welfare programs and make easy tax laws without a bunch of loopholes so everyone, I mean everyone pays, not just the top 5%.

This discussion wasn't about taxes it was about liberals feeling justified to force the masses into changing. You asked about examples of conservatives being tolerant, not sure what you mean. How are there examples of people not crying? I guess my proof is with the ACLU, find me a case where an intolerant conservative wanted to force change on a bunch of liberals. Oh wait, that was my original question that no one can find an example of.

Gays persecuted? So by saying something is a sin and is wrong they are being persecuted? Come on you all are too sensitive. You see the bars crying that churches preach against drinking to much? To a lot of Americans there are things that are wrong, crying about it and calling it hate speech doesn't change the fact that some people think it is wrong.

Poor & Suffering? Have you ever been out of this country? We do not have any true poor and suffering people. If you can still eat steak and watch sat. tv you are not truly poor. I am so glad we live in a country where people still have options, the sad part is most have been taught to be dependent on the very people they hate, rich people that give middle class people jobs. If we actually taught free enterprise in the schools and encouraged more of it things would be easier. I am not a huge corp guy, I think that system is filled with greed and selfishness but our education system is what is empowering it. Teach a kid to read and write then we teach them how to be good employees. You can't have it both ways, bite the hand that feeds you and not empower the future kids to be on their own. Hell we don't even teach kids basic credit score and housing budget info in high school. We are training a bunch of pathetic non-thinkers to go be at the mercy of the large corporations and banks. We need to change the way we teach to change our culture.

Liberals want a bunch of dependent people because they can control them and that leads to more power. That is, in my opinion, the biggest difference between D's and R's. R's believe that individuals can be empowered to handle things on their own if given the right tools and D's feel people are helpless and need a big government to handle things for them. In my opinion that is why Obama isn't afraid of a double dip recession because that will lead to more people looking to him for help and it will justify him to steal money from others.

[Ellen Cormier]

I don't hate you, just your lifestyle! Really Ryan? Really? Just wow is what I have to say to that. I know that is an extrapolation of what you said. You did say "disagree" but do I have a right to disagree with a Christian lifestyle? It's kind of an irrelevant statement. If you like and respect someone it stops there. A persons lifestyle as you say is a part of who they are. Now does anyone have a right to force Christianity on anyone else? No. Can anyone force you to be gay? No, that would be an infringement on who you are.

However, im going to think about this feelings thing you keep bringing up. I guess maybe I would look to the civil rights movement of the 60's and ask do you think it was just a matter of hurt feelings that there were water fountains marked "for coloreds" and others that said "whites only"?

[Ellen Cormier]

There is plenty fo leaching in this world to go around. I will take the few dudes getting a $500 a month SSI check legitamately or not over those greedy corporate robber barons getting multimillion dollar bouses. Did they really work that much harder than everyone else? No, they did not. That money came from somewhere, little by little from rich and poor alike. So, save your whining about the poor and/or people who receive some chump change in government assistance. Start at the top and fix that first. Fix the corporate welfare. Even foodstamps is a form of corporate welfare if you think about it. It allows people to work for lower wages than they ordinarily might. Also that money gets spent directly into the economy and many businesses profit. Plus, people don't starve to death. Its an added bonus.

As for proof of liberal city folk paying for conservative homogenous suburban sprawl? All you have to do is look at a map of cuyahoga county or anywhere USA and compare population growth to road growth. Local roads get paid for with
More than local money. Same with the extra schools, extra police and what not.