Lincoln & Roosevelt Schools to Close

[Meg Ostrowski]

So the thing I've never understood on this phase III issue is that I understand the board felt the need to close one of the three schools because they assume the state will only pay for two more, not all three. But why couldn't we as a community fund the third school if we felt it was important? Will the state say no to any funding if we decided to pay for the third school ourselves?

Bryan,

It was "due to declining enrollment" that the OSFC determined the state would only co-fund two additional elementary schools in Lakewood. At the first Phase III Community Forum, which was not well attended, the majority preferred not to renovate/rebuild the remaining elementary school having to use exclusively local funds. Had this turned out otherwise, state co-funding would not have been jepordized for the two buildings selected.

Lakewood taxpayers were willing to fund the excess square footage at Horace Mann & Emerson and the historic facade of Garfield that the state would not co-fund. Lincoln will also require significant locally funded initiatives. The cost of these combined is about the same as the cost of a brand new elementary school building. So perhaps the community would be willing to pay for the additional school or maybe we should have been more frugal on the front end of this process. The state only co-funds a small portion (23-31%) of these projects based on our ranking within the state, which varies year to year. We are on the hook for the rest, including operating costs once up and running. Things being what they are financially, this may be a tough sell.

I think your idea of an elementary school at Kaufmann Park was the perfect solution to having a central school. There’s another thread talking about politicians needing ‘vision’. This was a truly visionary idea that made a lot of sense, at least to me.

Charlie,

I'm certainly no politician, I thought it was just common sense...not visionary, but based on the reaction at the time, you'd have thought it was science fiction.

[Meg Ostrowski]

Many supporting the "keeping" of Lincoln seem not to realize that saving that building simply won't happen: updating it for a school requires that it will be demolished and it will be totally rebuilt from scratch, with additional (not owned) properties, for it to exist at all into the future as a school.

What makes you say this? It was done succesfully (although I heard painfully) at Horace Mann and Emerson.

[Mike Zannoni]

Many supporting the "keeping" of Lincoln seem not to realize that saving that building simply won't happen: updating it for a school requires that it will be demolished and it will be totally rebuilt from scratch, with additional (not owned) properties, for it to exist at all into the future as a school.

What makes you say this? It was done successfully (although I heard painfully) at Horace Mann and Emerson.

Meg --

While in attendance at the final community forum for Phase 3, I spoke with Lakewood School Board Treasurer Rick Berdine during the table deliberations about the relative costs of the two most realistic choices (to keep Lincoln or to keep Grant), something oddly missing from the official presentation. He said that Lincoln would in fact need a "total rebuild", because its age made renovating cost-prohibitive, but that the new construction would be "reminiscent" of its older architecture. He also said that the two choices were on par, cost wise, in that rebuilding either would be within $1 million of the other. He did not mention that Grant could be renovated, so I consider the "parity" between the projects to be seriously in error, because, in the highly filtered information provided to the public by the Phase 3 "overseers", the feasibility and cost of renovating Grant was nowhere mentioned, nor was its omission explained.

(The OFSC clearly thinks Grant can be renovated relatively inexpensively, and their assessment was made well before the Phase 3 community forum, though it was difficult for me to get this assessment in hand until some time afterwards.)

Mr. Berdine also explained the difficulty in "staging" the demolition and rebuild work when it comes to Lincoln, as the small site size prohibits the keeping of materials and machinery on the property while work is ongoing. Therefore some yet-to-be-arrived-at staging solution would have to be created in that scenario, while at Grant the existing site is itself large enough to stage all materials/equipment needed for the job for the duration. This staging problem at Lincoln undoubtedly has a price tag, not yet determined, to my knowledge.

the cost to rebuild/renovate either Grant or Lincoln is estimated between $12-14 million

Christine, we can't sensibly speak of some kind of a "rebuild/renovate" figure, which does not, and cannot, exist anywhere. I assert along with you, Meg, that Grant can be renovated for less than $5 million, from the published estimate in the OFSC assessments you cited earlier this thread:

. . . the OSFC assessments indicate an estimated cost of $4,648,237.28 to renovate Grant

So then, ranked in order of increasing cost:

1. Renovating Grant: less than $4.65 million (OFSC Assessment).
2. Rebuilding Grant: $12 - $14 million (est., from Architectural report).
3. Rebuilding Lincoln: $12 - $14 million (est., from Architectural report), plus the "staging cost", necessary, but as yet undetermined.
3. Renovating Lincoln: not feasible, according to Treasurer Berdine, as it would be in excess of its Rebuild cost.

[Charlie Page]

I think your idea of an elementary school at Kaufmann Park was the perfect solution to having a central school. There’s another thread talking about politicians needing ‘vision’. This was a truly visionary idea that made a lot of sense, at least to me.

Charlie,

I'm certainly no politician, I thought it was just common sense...not visionary, but based on the reaction at the time, you'd have thought it was science fiction.

It certainly took many out of their comfort zone. It would require the City and Schools to work together and overcome some obstacles. It would require defeat of the underground/behind the scenes ‘save Lincoln at all costs’ movement.

Someone once had a crazy idea to boil some water, mix in some crushed grains, add some hops, let it cool, add some yeast and let it sit for a week or so then put it in a bottle and drink it. That guy must have been out of his mind!

[Mike Zannoni]

. . . overcome some obstacles. It would require defeat of the underground/behind the scenes ‘save Lincoln at all costs’ movement.

Charlie --

Could you elaborate on this some, for those who are less familiar, or might not know about this? What makes you say there is such a movement, and how has it manifested?

Thanks.

[Charlie Page]

. . . overcome some obstacles. It would require defeat of the underground/behind the scenes ‘save Lincoln at all costs’ movement.

Charlie --

Could you elaborate on this some, for those who are less familiar, or might not know about this? What makes you say there is such a movement, and how has it manifested?

Thanks.

I was on the phase 3 committee. Looking back, it’s my opinion the committee was steered in one particular direction which was to close Grant. Information was withheld or skewed in Grant’s favor. Strategic meetings appeared to be stacked with Lincoln people. The community forum at the High School was stacked with pro-Lincoln information and people. There are many others who share the same opinion.

I’m not upset with the decision to close Grant over Lincoln, it’s just how the process played out that irks me. I think it could have been justified using other criteria but I’m not interested in revisiting this. At this point with enrollment reportedly increasing, it’s worth questioning whether we need to close Grant at all.

If we had to go to six, I think a school at Kaufmann Park to replace both Grant and Lincoln is what would best serve Lakewood. Kaufmann is in a more central part of town than Grant. Grant is too far south and Lincoln is too far north. There would be no transition space needed while the Kaufmann school is constructed. Grant would make a nice park in the center of town. The Lincoln property could go to residential development. We don’t need more retail properties.

As far as the other obstacles, Kaufmann Park is owned by the City, so there would have to be something worked out (either sale or trade of similar property) between the Schools and City. This is probably the largest obstacle. As I recall, there was other property that supposedly would need to be acquired around Kauffman Park to make this go. I have heard the owner of the Drug Mart plaza is in bankruptcy, so maybe this can reopen the possibility. I do know that Blockbuster has filed for bankruptcy as I was there this past Friday and saw the notice (BTW, if anyone has a Blockbuster gift card, you need to use it by April 6 or else you lose...it won’t be honored).

[Bill Call]

If we had to go to six, I think a school at Kaufmann Park to replace both Grant and Lincoln is what would best serve Lakewood. Kaufmann is in a more central part of town than Grant. Grant is too far south and Lincoln is too far north. There would be no transition space needed while the Kaufmann school is constructed. Grant would make a nice park in the center of town. The Lincoln property could go to residential development. We don’t need more retail properties.

Building a new elementary school at Kaufman Park and Drug Mart Plaza sounds like a great idea for many reasons. The idea might even qualify as vision.

It is more centrally located.

It would be cheaper than building or rehabing two buildings.

It would allow for added flexibility: If it was built big enough it could handle the increase in enrollment but if enrollment decreases in 10 years we won't be faced with the need to close a new school.

The added size might make special programs more cost affective. The new school as magnet school?

The loss of the Plaza will enhance the value of the empty lots at Bunts and Detroit.

It's a sore point with some but the Grant and School Board lots would have more value if made available for development. A medical center? New housing?

I still think Lakewood is better positioned to thrive in the future economy than many people think. For that to happen we must be willing to make some bolder decisions.

The phase III meetings were a complete dog and pony show. I made a half hearted effort to take part but immediately lost interest when I was told that Grant was to be closed, the decison was already made.

[Bryan Schwegler]

Of course we'd lose a huge chunk of public green space in the middle of the city. Maybe I'm the naysayer here, but quite honestly, being only like 3 blocks away from where Grant is now doesn't qualify it as "more centrally located than Grant" enough to justify losing this large central park.

If they're going through that trouble, then just go back to renovating/rebuilding on the Grant site. My personal opinion is Grant should be kept anyway with or instead of Lincoln. But we already know where that's at for now unfortunately.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Of course we'd lose a huge chunk of public green space in the middle of the city. Maybe I'm the naysayer here, but quite honestly, being only like 3 blocks away from where Grant is now doesn't qualify it as "more centrally located than Grant" enough to justify losing this large central park.

If they're going through that trouble, then just go back to renovating/rebuilding on the Grant site. My personal opinion is Grant should be kept anyway with or instead of Lincoln. But we already know where that's at for now unfortunately.

Bryan

There are many issues with this now. Way to many to simply walk away from. A few
people came forward early on, and said the entire process was from flawed to completely
fraudulent in the presentation of facts and actions to a community meeting, where the
community was told they would have input. This follows a series of similar presentations
of facts and discussions by civic leaders

People went back and underlined their concerned with facts and comments that go back
to the 50-Year-Committee. Many of those same people pointed out who and why the
process was hijacked or fraudulent from the beginning. The messengers were trashed
here and really trashed on the streets for being crazy and "conspiracy freaks" and
marginalized (this city's favorite way to defend oneself, marginalize the other). We saw
the same groups align with the same groups explaining this and that, all BS now that
we can look back. We even saw and heard people get threatened over this including at
least one board member that was told to "Get on with what they were supposed to do."
to paraphrase (coming out in upcoming story).

Why? Are elected officials accountable? With millions of dollars at stake, and what would
seem to be a complete power struggle within a city, Why? From who? For what purpose?
It seems to me two things corrupt, Money $$$$$ and power, and the need for power. Since
the Phase III meetings more and more people are coming forward like Charley and
realizing, the fix was in. I have one friend that had nothing to the entire process called
and asked if he was a Lincoln alumni? Did he go to Lincoln? Could he attend the meeting
and vote for Lincoln? He told me after hearing the data, their table he thought voted for
rehabbing Grant, but is still sure that vote was changed by the time it got to the counting
board, and was shocked. I know others that were subjected to the other major force in
town, highschoolesque peer pressure.

We are talking about millions. We are talking about the education of our children. We are
talking about how this city operates, and how things are done. We have one, count them
one, schoolboard member demanding transparency and accountability, while we have
high ranking members of the school board and city hall working overtime to find anyone
to run against him, and shut him up.

WTF?

Elected officials refusing to return phone calls? Elected officials refusing to talk with each
other? Documents missing? Millions going into things with no success? People being hung
out to dry for simply wanting to serve the people that elected them?

We need to finish these schools and especially the High School, but we also need to
understand what the hell went on here, and goes on here.

.

[Ellen Cormier]

I originally joined this board because I was really confused about the phase iii outcome and saw it discussed here. I never did post until the sb5 thing came up.

I think the Grant/Lincoln issue is worth keeping alive since it's not too late and there are new budget issues to deal with. I remember the Lincoln folks having an answer for everything and the weird peer pressure. I don't know what the motivations are. Especially when you have beautiful horace Mann down the street. I would really like to know the occupancy vs capacity over there at horace Mann.

I am not sure if this is a money oriented "conspiracy" or something more locally flavored. I would hesitate to call it a conspiracy even if it actually is! It does just seem weird the immense and irrational pull to keep Lincoln open.

But back to the high school, jeez they have got to get that finished before some kid gets killed by a car walking back and forth across Franklin. How much do they pay to rent those temporary schools? What's the plan for Taft and mckinely? Can those be sold to get funds to complete the schools? The high school thing is pure madness right now.

[Bryan Schwegler]

Ohio law requires the schools be offered to charter schools before they can be sold I believe.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Ohio law requires the schools be offered to charter schools before they can be sold I believe.

Bryan

For another article I am writing I have been studying Ohio School Law. It is pretty interesting
what is available within the framework of the law. To paraphrase, "The School must make it
available to any community schools in the District."

But there are some other interesting options that could lead to some interesting moments.
You can donate to a 501C3 from the way I read it. Hmmmmmmmmm got any of those
around that would like property?

You can trade with the city. So that Lakewood could trade park land, and get rid of the
burden of upkeep, and take Taft and McKinley. The schools would get needed green
space for rec and education and the city would end up with the schools. Would this then
allow the city to sell the property to a developer? I see no reason why "washing" the
properties through either a 501C3, or City Hall would ban them from future sales.

So we could then trade McKinley for the Beck, giving the city serious space on Detroit, for
offices or a medical building for Metro. The Beck gets rid of 2 flat roofs they cannot
maintain, and get a much larger venue for schools, theater(2), meetings, and gallery.

Oh my got a little carried away.

[Jennifer Frank]

I would really like to know the occupancy vs capacity over there at horace Mann.

Horace Mann is currently home to am & pm preschool classes, 3-kindergarten classes, 3-1st grades, 3-2nd grades, 3-3rd grades, 2-4th grades, and 2-5th grades, along with 5 CHAMPS classes (children with moderate to severe disablities). Additonal classrooms are used by music, art, physical education, library, counselors, intervention specialists, Title I teachers, ESL teachers, speech pathologist, occupational therapist/physical therapist, school psychologist, etc.

[Ellen Cormier]

Thanks for the information. It sounds like a very busy school! I didn't know they had such a big disabilities program there. Are we still serving kids from outside the district? It sounds like the building has been put to good use but I'm still unclear as to occupancy verses capacity.

There's supposed to be room somewhere for a full school of kids otherwise the state wouldn't want us to close a school. I'm sure there maybe some truth to increasing enrollment but I can't believe projections would be off by a whole school in such a short time. I'm sure it's all going to work out eventually. But all this uncertainty has really left people hanging.

[Danielle Masters]

Ellen,

Just to answer your capacity question as quick as I can. Each of the elementary school in the district are built under the same template which is 3 classroom for each grade level. The original plan was to have classes of 24 students in each. Which is why when furniture packages were ordered that is what they ordered. Although as some of us have been saying for a few years elementary enrollment has been increasing not declining as we had originally been told and many classrooms hold well over 24 students.

Sorry I am a little under the weather today but I will try to spell this out as best as I can. The schools, even the bigger ones like Horace Mann and Emerson, are built for 3 classrooms each of grades k-5 with 24 students in each which would be 72 students in each grade level or a total of 432 students school wide. That does not include students in self contained gifted or special ed classrooms. That number also does not include preschool.

I do not have the actual school numbers for this year, I am slacking a bit as I have gone back to school full-time. I do remember when looking at last years numbers the problems occurred when the 7th school was taken out of the mix. Right now we have 7 schools slightly below max capacity although due to open enrollment being used so widely the enrollment is a bit skewed causing class sizes to be out of whack. When we take the 7th school out of the mix, all schools would be at or over capacity and there is no feasible way that open enrollment could possibly continue as it has due to the fact that students living in a specific school boundary have to be offered a desk at their home school.

Take kindergarden for example, last year there were 431 students which with 6 schools would equal out to the perfect 24 children per classroom with 3 classes at each school but what happens if enrollment goes up, we will be overcrowded. We were told that the new schools would not immediately be at maximum capacity but that they would give us a little breathing room. Also it is important to note that kindergarden enrollment went from 371 student in the 2008-09 school year to 431 students in the 2009-10, once again I apologize for not having this years numbers.


Hope that information helps. And I do hope that if and when it comes time to revisist the idea of keeping all seven schools open we look to the future of this community and what would be best for future students. This issue isn't really a personal issue to me as I only have two more years left with an elementary student but in order for Lakewood to be a successful community we need to keep our schools strong. And that includes keeping them from being overcrowded.