Senate Bill 5

[Gary Rice]

Bill:

Performance and accountability are personnel matters. Procedures and expectations are certainly established for those considerations. The school day is also clearly outlined and the contact hours established are a part of the negotiated agreement, and are always open to discussion and potential revision at the next bargaining session.

Ellen,

Thanks for those kind words.

Those who know me, however, know that I'm not one who enjoys debating, as a rule.

It's just...and I certainly think this to be true of all of us....

In our lives, we quite naturally become a part of larger groups in the family of humanity...

...our families, our churches, our schools, our friendship circles, and of course, with our jobs and professional associations.

I suppose that it's when some of those groups, (that we have been a part of) are being questioned, that a fundamental part of us is also questioned.

Some have said that I take some things personally.

Well, we do take things personally, I suppose, when a part of our core values are being challenged.

It's real simple with me. In life, you stand with your family, your friends, your faith, and your colleagues in your chosen profession.

That is, if you have any core values at all.

Just my opinion, and so far at least, I can still express one...

Back to the banjo...

[Bryan Schwegler]

I think it would be a gross mistake to characterize sb5 as popular with the general public.

Ellen, I don't think anyone has said SB5 as a whole is popular. It's not.

However, it depends on what you're asking if it's popular or not. It's unpopular to take away bargaining rights, but it's very popular to put limits on how much of the health care tab the districts pick up and some of the other provisions.

And yes, Kasich is washed up already. His approval rating is around 30%

All of this is proven out in the latest opinion polls. Here's a great story from WCPN explaining the number:
http://www.ideastream.org/news/feature/39251

Why should professionals have to give up rights they've worked hard to preserve because the private sector has let big business run them over and take away pay increases and benefits?

I don't think anyone wants to, but the reality is we have to do something because we simply can't afford it. We have no money. You can't pay for things when you don't have the money and so sometimes hard decisions need to be made. These are public positions that are ultimately at the mercy of how well the underlying tax base is doing.

[Bryan Schwegler]

There is a lot in there about 7 hour work days and a lot in there about limiting contact with students but nothing about performance or accountablity. How much sense does that make?

That ultimately is the huge missing piece. I couldn't care less about how they choose to structure their day or how many hours they work in place A vs place B, but it's the complete lack of accountability for results that is the most disturbing piece to how evaluations and ultimately pay is determined.

[Bryan Schwegler]

Bill:

Performance and accountability are personnel matters. Procedures and expectations are certainly established for those considerations. The school day is also clearly outlined and the contact hours established are a part of the negotiated agreement, and are always open to discussion and potential revision at the next bargaining session.

Gary, the point you're missing is that an awful lot of the taxpaying public are not happy with the status quo that's been established for those procedures.

No one is saying there aren't procedures. I just think a good deal of us question the efficacy of the existing procedures and the completely lack of transparent accountability that exists there.

Wrapping yourself in the robe of obfuscation, procedures, bureaucracy, and hidden back room contract negotiations doesn't endear you to the general public right now. The public wants answers, they want transparency, they want accountability for the precious few tax dollars we have to spend.

This is where I say the union has a PR nightmare on its hands. The public doesn't want to hear the rhetoric about negotiated contracts, they want to hear how teachers and administrators are handling the concern of shrinking tax dollars and failing schools. The administrations, with GOP allies, have done an awfully good job of painting the unions as the villains and so far the union hasn't done anything to try to counter that.

It begs the question, does the union just not want to confront the bad stereotypes, or is there really something to what the administrations have been saying all along? The union really needs to get out in front of this, they're letting their enemies control the story.

(PS - You're kidding yourself if you think the union doesn't have a budget for PR and lobbying )

[Ellen Cormier]

Bryan I do not accept the conservative meme that the tax payer is over burdened, that "we can no longer afford" certain niceties of society. Please back up with some facts. We are currently paying a lot less in taxes than other tax periods. What we can't afford is tax breaks for the rich at the expense of the poor and middle class.

If health care costs are such a burden for business and the public sector let's fight for a system that aggregates health care for all with the resources that are being devoted now to a decreasing amount of insured people. That alone solves a lot of this health care nonsense of who pays what percentage. This for profit hodge podge system is what we can't afford. But that is a bit of a tangent.

Bryan, what is the cost to society when professionals no longer make a living wage? When they are no longer sturdy taxpayers? We are talking about the backbone of our taxpayers and you want to reduce them to the struggling masses who have already been reduced by corporate greed. Are businesses going to be standing by to pull us up from our unsubsidized mess? No, they've already moved on to emerging markets and we will be left in our new negative growth third world status.

I would/will provide data were I not posting from a phone.

So again I ask what is a resonable salary and benefits for a professional? What is the amount? Please include amounts for those just starting out and what one should expect by staying dedicated to your field.

I saw some recent information on charter school pay. It's like 30k to start and 30k average. So either people are not getting raises or they are not staying with charter schools. Average for public school is around 50k, which again is just breaking middle class status.

[Ellen Cormier]

And I don't mean to imply the government is responsible for creating a middle class. Business is failing to do this and the government subsidizes this failure as well. But in no way would letting the bottom fall out for probably 250 million people be the solution and republicans seem to be trying to make that happen over night. So I can only conclude that republicans want rioting in the streets and are actually advocating for radical social justice at an accelerated pace.

[Bryan Schwegler]

Bryan I do not accept the conservative meme that the tax payer is over burdened, that "we can no longer afford" certain niceties of society. Please back up with some facts.

Seriously?

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Pretty sure we have a massive debt problem that tax increases nor spending cuts alone will solve. Can't believe that's even a question.

Bryan, what is the cost to society when professionals no longer make a living wage?

So asking teachers (since that is the topic of this thread) to pay at least 15% of their own healthcare benefits and maybe be held accountable to performance based merit increases is going to destroy their living wage?

[Ellen Cormier]

Who says that's the only thing teachers would have to give up if they give up Collective bargaining rights? Do you really believe that? Your links may be good, but cutting some teacher pay and benefits isn't going to solve the debt "crisis".

I am very aware of the national debt. I'm also aware we had budget surpluses as far as the eye could see when Clinton left office. Debt and deficit are two different things and I'm not going to get into that right now. Governments do not operate like household budgets and that meme should not be touted as "common sense" (another vague false meme people like to banter about)

And I am a common person just bantering right now. When I can get to a regular computer I'll try to back up what I'm saying with evidence from reliable sources.

[Bryan Schwegler]

Who says that's the only thing teachers would have to give up if they give up Collective bargaining rights? Do you really believe that?

Ellen, you specifically addressed your question to me by name. I'm going to assume you haven't actually read through what I've said in this thread because if you have, you would have seen that no where to do I say I support SB5 or that giving up collective bargaining rights is a good thing.

[Ellen Cormier]

Who says that's the only thing teachers would have to give up if they give up Collective bargaining rights? Do you really believe that?

Ellen, you specifically addressed your question to me by name. I'm going to assume you haven't actually read through what I've said in this thread because if you have, you would have seen that no where to do I say I support SB5 or that giving up collective bargaining rights is a good thing.

I've read the whole thing. Who is asking the teachers to pay 15% of their health insurance costs and the merit pay thing? Is that your personal proposal or someone elses?

[Ellen Cormier]

And if you are getting that proposal out of sb5 then you are advocating for discontinuing bargaining rights. You can't like a part of it and say you are against sb5. The intent of the bill is to scrap union power. The 15%, etc is just some chocolate sprinkles. Those things can be proposed at the bargaining level. They don't need sb5 to do that.

[Ellen Cormier]

On merit pay, from what I have seen of the world, that is an excuse for 0% pay increases. Especially in the nonprofit world but generally in the for profit world too these days. Cola increases are the only way to ensure people stay ahead or on par with inflation. You can maybe do a combo, but again any type of wage increase is hard to come by. I think the merit pay thing is a skunk, a diversion, a red herring to get out of paying people what they are worth altogether.

[Ellen Cormier]

http://cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm

http://www.bobbyscott.house.gov/index.p ... cle&id=569

http://www.aarp.org/politics-society/go ... lapse.html

Just some links that might be of interest. I'm still on my phone and haven't had q chance to thoroughly review those articles but I think you will get the point. Republicans have never been serious about managing debt and their hysteria now is absolutely farcical.

[Gary Rice]

"Wrapping yourself in the robe of obfuscation, procedures, bureaucracy, and hidden back room contract negotiations doesn't endear you to the general public right now."

I did WHAT?

Presumably, the person who wrote the above lines is referring to teachers collectively and not to me personally, but I'm not really sure at this point....

There's a word used in the collective bargaining process:

"impasse"

This basically says that the sides are talking pretty much AT each other and not WITH each other, and I think that's just about where we're at on this thread.

The public wanted testing in order to evaluate so-called "failing schools". Then we discover that Lakewood's schools, being measured by those objective standards, comes out "excellent", but still that is not enough for some people, and it probably never will be.

Oh well...

As to another point raised, some unions certainly have PAC (political action committee) affiliates BUT those are STRICTLY governed by federal rules. A union and a PAC are NOT the same at all.

A union's role is membership representation with an employer. Period. Look up the definition of PAC and see for yourself. Again, there are rules that must be followed.

As for so-called "stereotypes" or groups having public relations problems? People will believe what they want to anyway, but has been pointed out very well here, it looks as if the larger PR issue may well lie with the political leadership in these various states. It not just the teachers either who are upset. There are a whole bunch of police, fire and other people involved with their respective associations at this point. I have a pretty good idea that if there's any "PR" problem here, it's not going to be with the unions.

Finally, again I would reiterate. Whatever others may think, teacher performance and effectiveness are constantly being reviewed by supervisors as an ongoing part of any successful school district. Teachers only state that those reviews should be fair and objective.

All just my opinion here, but the next election will certainly tell an interesting tale, this I do believe.

Back to the banjo...

[Bryan Schwegler]

And if you are getting that proposal out of sb5 then you are advocating for discontinuing bargaining rights. You can't like a part of it and say you are against sb5. The intent of the bill is to scrap union power. The 15%, etc is just some chocolate sprinkles. Those things can be proposed at the bargaining level. They don't need sb5 to do that.

Ellen, you're making unfounded assumptions and accusations about my support of SB5 which are blatantly untrue and counter to everything I've said in this thread.

I have no problem debating or discussing the topic, but I don't have an interest in doing so to just have my position on the issue twisted