I think it is inaccurate to say that a college degree does not add to one's chances of economic success. Some countries, notably India, have invested heavily in college degree programs, and their country has shown dramatic economic improvement.
I would suggest the weakness in our system is that we do not compel our students to study the subjects, such as mathmatics, that produce people who are competitive in a technological world. We allow too many students to get degrees in what should really be hobbies, such as music and history and literature, and only after graduation do they find that employment in those fields is rare. By that time, it is too late for them to catch up on technology. so they go through life being unproductive. Why should we pay for this type of educational waste?
As for testing, we need some way to measure the knowledge and skills that are supposed to be being taught, and no one has shown me a better way of measuring that than will a skillfully crafted test. If you hire someone to teach your child to drive, wouldn't you want to see them actually drive at the end of the course, or would you be willing to rely on the teacher's opinion that the child could drive?
What does "fricken" mean? I don't find it in my dictionary.
School Levy Theory Tested
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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Will Brown
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:56 am
- Location: Lakewood
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
Society in every state is a blessing, but the Government even in its best state is but a necessary evil...
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Danielle Masters
- Posts: 1139
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:39 am
- Location: Lakewood, OH
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
First off music degrees are hardly wasteful, my husband has one and does work in the industry. Not everyone is going to work on computers. Literature, music and history are all an important part of our culture and without them life would be rather dull, culture is hardly a waste. And it is from history that we can hopefully learn to be a better society.
As for your question regarding the word "fricken" I'd suggest a quick google search and look it up on urban dictionary. Be warned though, the language can be offensive to some.
As for your question regarding the word "fricken" I'd suggest a quick google search and look it up on urban dictionary. Be warned though, the language can be offensive to some.
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J Hrlec
- Posts: 480
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:17 pm
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
Will Brown wrote:I would suggest the weakness in our system is that we do not compel our students to study the subjects, such as mathmatics, that produce people who are competitive in a technological world. We allow too many students to get degrees in what should really be hobbies, such as music and history and literature, and only after graduation do they find that employment in those fields is rare. By that time, it is too late for them to catch up on technology. so they go through life being unproductive. Why should we pay for this type of educational waste?
Danielle Masters wrote:First off music degrees are hardly wasteful, my husband has one and does work in the industry. Not everyone is going to work on computers. Literature, music and history are all an important part of our culture and without them life would be rather dull, culture is hardly a waste. And it is from history that we can hopefully learn to be a better society.
I don't think music, history, or literature degrees are wasteful in general but could believe that they offer potentially less opportunity for employment. I think if you have 500 music graduates and 500 Business-based graduates in a urban area, the latter would have the greater percentage of employed persons. This certainly doesn't mean people should not pursue their dreams, but be aware of potential employment pitfalls for the money and time invested. I could be wrong, since I am basing this on my own experiences.
I do certainly feel that all those things are very important to society in general.
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Gary Rice
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:59 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
Music???
Unproductive????
Educational waste????
Awwwww......
Will, you have to be careful here, or you might damage my self esteem...
Seriously, although I would certainly take issue with Will as to the validity of music as a career, (It can, in fact, be a very successful business/educational activity, even at the local level) I think that I do understand and in fact, would probably agree with his broader point about readiness for the world of work.
Whether a student studies Music, History, Literature, Biology, or Calculus, the big factor that so often seems to be left out of the equation is indeed, that readiness for the world of competitive employment.
Colleges can no longer afford to ignore the need for vocational guidance and developmental employment readiness. It is simply not enough to be able to bang a drum, toot a horn, play a banjo, or work an equation successfully. There needs to be some sort of counseling and vocational preparation along the way for that job light to shine at the end of the collegiate tunnel.
As for testing?
The trouble with a "skillfully crafted test" is that, depending on who "skillfully crafts it", a test could be designed that everyone could flunk, or for that matter, get an "A". I think that the larger issue, these days, would be the question as to whether a test should be punitive, or diagnostic-prescriptive in nature. So far, in our society, I believe that tests tend to be punitive. If they were more often used as genuine diagnostic tools, we would get along so much better, this I do believe.
...but what do I know?
These days, I'm just a simple musician who loves literature and history...
By the way Will, I would be delighted to discuss MIDI (musical instrument digital interface) technology with you, or analog vs. digital musical technology, or numerous other aspects of how technology is uses in successful music businesses every single day.
As I believe that you noted though.... people have to be seriously well prepared for these things, if they want their chosen field to be anything other than a hobby.
Same with English Lit... I might love to discuss the iambic pentameter in Lord Byron's "Sonnet to Chillon", for example, but we also need to teach how having that knowledge can make a buck, these days....
As with the multiples of five,
With fifteen lines, as you've seen above,
And with those lines sublime, the truth breaks free,
Could dollar bills then flow, for some to love?
Actually, if you do look at how much math and science is required these days in high school, it is in fact, quite a load.
Back to the banjo...
Hmmm....but...could a banjo-sonnet...
truly...become...a bonnet?
Unproductive????
Educational waste????
Awwwww......
Will, you have to be careful here, or you might damage my self esteem...
Seriously, although I would certainly take issue with Will as to the validity of music as a career, (It can, in fact, be a very successful business/educational activity, even at the local level) I think that I do understand and in fact, would probably agree with his broader point about readiness for the world of work.
Whether a student studies Music, History, Literature, Biology, or Calculus, the big factor that so often seems to be left out of the equation is indeed, that readiness for the world of competitive employment.
Colleges can no longer afford to ignore the need for vocational guidance and developmental employment readiness. It is simply not enough to be able to bang a drum, toot a horn, play a banjo, or work an equation successfully. There needs to be some sort of counseling and vocational preparation along the way for that job light to shine at the end of the collegiate tunnel.
As for testing?
The trouble with a "skillfully crafted test" is that, depending on who "skillfully crafts it", a test could be designed that everyone could flunk, or for that matter, get an "A". I think that the larger issue, these days, would be the question as to whether a test should be punitive, or diagnostic-prescriptive in nature. So far, in our society, I believe that tests tend to be punitive. If they were more often used as genuine diagnostic tools, we would get along so much better, this I do believe.
...but what do I know?
These days, I'm just a simple musician who loves literature and history...
By the way Will, I would be delighted to discuss MIDI (musical instrument digital interface) technology with you, or analog vs. digital musical technology, or numerous other aspects of how technology is uses in successful music businesses every single day.
As I believe that you noted though.... people have to be seriously well prepared for these things, if they want their chosen field to be anything other than a hobby.
Same with English Lit... I might love to discuss the iambic pentameter in Lord Byron's "Sonnet to Chillon", for example, but we also need to teach how having that knowledge can make a buck, these days....
As with the multiples of five,
With fifteen lines, as you've seen above,
And with those lines sublime, the truth breaks free,
Could dollar bills then flow, for some to love?
Actually, if you do look at how much math and science is required these days in high school, it is in fact, quite a load.
Back to the banjo...
Hmmm....but...could a banjo-sonnet...
truly...become...a bonnet?
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Will Brown
- Posts: 496
- Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:56 am
- Location: Lakewood
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
Just to narrow this to one field, I would suggest that the bulk of musical education consists of private lessons paid for by the student or his parents. Since we are so concerned with the increasing costs of public education, I would ask why we spend as much on a music teacher as a math or physics teacher, when most of the musical education is done outside the schools?
If I had a degree in music, and worked in the industry, but could not afford to support my family (I seem to recall Ms. Masters saying that they could not afford medical care for their children, and were going on some form of welfare), I would question whether I was productively employed, or whether I was pursuing a hobby.
Many people work in the music field without degrees. Or if they have a degree, they work in another field and work part time in the music field. So why not compel them to get a useful degree and be productive, and work in the music field part time.
I am one of many people who contribute to CIM. I am constantly amazed at the skill of those students, and saddened when I read their reports and see how few are as successful in the field of music as their talent warrants, but the full-time jobs are just not there. And with the increased use of recorded and mechanical music, I don't see that there will be anything but a decrease in jobs in that field.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't study music, just that the study of music should not be as heavily subsidized in the public schools as it is. There are plenty of opportunities outside the schools to develop musical skills.
If I had a degree in music, and worked in the industry, but could not afford to support my family (I seem to recall Ms. Masters saying that they could not afford medical care for their children, and were going on some form of welfare), I would question whether I was productively employed, or whether I was pursuing a hobby.
Many people work in the music field without degrees. Or if they have a degree, they work in another field and work part time in the music field. So why not compel them to get a useful degree and be productive, and work in the music field part time.
I am one of many people who contribute to CIM. I am constantly amazed at the skill of those students, and saddened when I read their reports and see how few are as successful in the field of music as their talent warrants, but the full-time jobs are just not there. And with the increased use of recorded and mechanical music, I don't see that there will be anything but a decrease in jobs in that field.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't study music, just that the study of music should not be as heavily subsidized in the public schools as it is. There are plenty of opportunities outside the schools to develop musical skills.
Society in every state is a blessing, but the Government even in its best state is but a necessary evil...
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Danielle Masters
- Posts: 1139
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:39 am
- Location: Lakewood, OH
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
FYI not that I really want to get into my personal business but there reason I cannot afford medical coverage for myself or my children is that my husband is self-employed (sub-contractor as that is how the business works) and we have two children on the autism spectrum and I myself am bipolar. Therefore coverage for my family would be over $2,000 a month when we could find it. Sorry but that's not a problem with my husband's job that's a problem with the way healthcare is handled in this country. He actually has a very technical job, he is a piano technician and not only uses his musical training but also uses quite a bit of technology and mathematics.
Oh and thanks for the personal jab, truly classy, so compassionate. Also as a self-employed individual he pays a pretty penny in self-employment tax so please spare me the self righteousness. I guess though it's probably my fault that I had two children with disabilities, I don't even want to know where you stand on Roe v Wade.
Oh and thanks for the personal jab, truly classy, so compassionate. Also as a self-employed individual he pays a pretty penny in self-employment tax so please spare me the self righteousness. I guess though it's probably my fault that I had two children with disabilities, I don't even want to know where you stand on Roe v Wade.
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Gary Rice
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:59 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
Will,
If I understand you correctly, thank you for your own contributions to music education. In fact, in the Lakewood schools, we have a number of benefactors in the Music Boosters organization. One gentleman in particular has done much for Lakewood's music program.
Will's point is well-taken in one very important respect. In the West, music and the arts are often subsidized, (either publicly or privately) in order to survive. Going back to the days of the classical composers, even they were often forced to bow to some benefactor, in order to eat. What music and the arts "produce" might not always be tangible, but that does not lessen their fundamental importance to humankind, and that has long been understood by political, religious, and intellectual leadership.
It sort of begs the question as to whether we really want everyone to be "productive" in a purely economic sense. Of course, a trades-person is very productive. My father was a trained and fully certified piano technician, as well as being a jobbing musician, while he went through college and yes, we went through some difficult economic times once in awhile back then, as well.
Then he became a public school teacher and things got a bit better for us.
That said, I do believe that all forms of work are honorable and valid. The amount of money received for one's work does not always reflect the value of that labor, particularly during hard times.
Of course, even the product of teaching itself is difficult to quantify, in spite of many efforts to do so, because at the last, the final product is a human being's sublime knowledge, and perhaps more importantly, the application of that knowledge to real life situations.
The point was made before, that we need to reach as many of our students as possible. The problem is that not all of them are going to be college-bound, and we need to explore alternative successful outcomes or... yes indeed, there will be and are, social consequences to our negligence.
There are also many students who have physical, emotional, linguistic, cultural, or other reasons why they might be unable to pass through the same educational "cattle chute" as their peers at a given time in their lives. I was, in fact, once one of those students, and that experience caused me to enter the field of Special Education. These days, I continue, even as a retired educator, to fight for the rights of those students in this time of an insistence on quantifiable outcomes for virtually unquantifiable situations.
I do not believe that "No Child Left Behind" means that all children MUST be necessarily college-bound. (or should have to take a college tracking of coursework in order to get a high school diploma)
There needs to be some flexibility in play. As humans are different, so must schooling reflect and constructively address those differences.
Back to the banjo...
If I understand you correctly, thank you for your own contributions to music education. In fact, in the Lakewood schools, we have a number of benefactors in the Music Boosters organization. One gentleman in particular has done much for Lakewood's music program.
Will's point is well-taken in one very important respect. In the West, music and the arts are often subsidized, (either publicly or privately) in order to survive. Going back to the days of the classical composers, even they were often forced to bow to some benefactor, in order to eat. What music and the arts "produce" might not always be tangible, but that does not lessen their fundamental importance to humankind, and that has long been understood by political, religious, and intellectual leadership.
It sort of begs the question as to whether we really want everyone to be "productive" in a purely economic sense. Of course, a trades-person is very productive. My father was a trained and fully certified piano technician, as well as being a jobbing musician, while he went through college and yes, we went through some difficult economic times once in awhile back then, as well.
Then he became a public school teacher and things got a bit better for us.
That said, I do believe that all forms of work are honorable and valid. The amount of money received for one's work does not always reflect the value of that labor, particularly during hard times.
Of course, even the product of teaching itself is difficult to quantify, in spite of many efforts to do so, because at the last, the final product is a human being's sublime knowledge, and perhaps more importantly, the application of that knowledge to real life situations.
The point was made before, that we need to reach as many of our students as possible. The problem is that not all of them are going to be college-bound, and we need to explore alternative successful outcomes or... yes indeed, there will be and are, social consequences to our negligence.
There are also many students who have physical, emotional, linguistic, cultural, or other reasons why they might be unable to pass through the same educational "cattle chute" as their peers at a given time in their lives. I was, in fact, once one of those students, and that experience caused me to enter the field of Special Education. These days, I continue, even as a retired educator, to fight for the rights of those students in this time of an insistence on quantifiable outcomes for virtually unquantifiable situations.
I do not believe that "No Child Left Behind" means that all children MUST be necessarily college-bound. (or should have to take a college tracking of coursework in order to get a high school diploma)
There needs to be some flexibility in play. As humans are different, so must schooling reflect and constructively address those differences.
Back to the banjo...
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Gary Rice
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:59 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
To directly address Will's point about the validity of music teachers, however...
(And revealing my bias here, Dad was one of those for 25 years in Lakewood, and many more in Pennsylvania, and is a member of the Lakewood Schools Staff Hall of Fame)
(And...at the age of 90, continues to volunteer with the music program of the Lakewood Schools, as do I)
Time and time again, we have see music "reach" a child and even help to turn that child's life around. Music and the arts help to reach some of those creative individuals who might otherwise have difficulty with fitting into the general school day.
Music and the arts, to me, are every bit as essential as English, Math or Science, in helping a well-rounded young person to develop in our modern world.
Back to the banjo...well...
Maybe not right now...
It's time for the...
Lakewood RANGER Drum Line to get started again!
You SAY that you don't play the drums?
We don't care, that's cool.
We just want you all to know, that...
RANGER DRUMMERS RULE!!!!
(And revealing my bias here, Dad was one of those for 25 years in Lakewood, and many more in Pennsylvania, and is a member of the Lakewood Schools Staff Hall of Fame)
(And...at the age of 90, continues to volunteer with the music program of the Lakewood Schools, as do I)
Time and time again, we have see music "reach" a child and even help to turn that child's life around. Music and the arts help to reach some of those creative individuals who might otherwise have difficulty with fitting into the general school day.
Music and the arts, to me, are every bit as essential as English, Math or Science, in helping a well-rounded young person to develop in our modern world.
Back to the banjo...well...
Maybe not right now...
It's time for the...
Lakewood RANGER Drum Line to get started again!
You SAY that you don't play the drums?
We don't care, that's cool.
We just want you all to know, that...
RANGER DRUMMERS RULE!!!!
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Bill Call
- Posts: 3317
- Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:10 pm
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
stephen davis wrote:Bill Call wrote:Not everyone is meant to be a scholar,
most college degrees provide no value added in the job market,
not everyone belongs in high school,
not everyone should have a college degree.
I've heard that residents of Afghanistan have the equivalent of a Second Grade education. .
Like the housing market, the higher education industry is in an economic bubble.
The government student loan program has allowed the government schools to increase tuition at a rate far faster than the rate of inflation. Those inflated tuitions fed the increase salaries and benefits for the government employees. It has also paid for an ever increasing number of government employees employed by the government schools.
Student loans are now greater than credit card loans:
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/08/ ... dit-cards/
President Obama has announced a goal of a college education for 60% of the population.
http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market ... es-by-2020
How much sense does that really make? Imagine for a moment that his wish was granted right now this very minute and Cleveland had:
10,000 new elementary school teachers
5,000 new urban studies majors
3,000 new general studies majors
2,000 new marketing majors
What are they going to do? Wait tables? Who will pay the student loan (hint: no one).
Just as high school has become the new junior high the four year degree will become the new high school diploma. I suppose eventually you will have to get a PHD to get the education you use to get it in four years of college.
Anyway, back to Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights. I still think an extra $1 billion is a lot of money.
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Bryan Schwegler
- Posts: 963
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:23 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
'cuz nothin' says "we're ready for the future" than an uneducated workforce, right?
You Tea Party people more sense every day.
You Tea Party people more sense every day.
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Bill Call
- Posts: 3317
- Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:10 pm
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
Bryan Schwegler wrote:'cuz nothin' says "we're ready for the future" than an uneducated workforce, right?
You Tea Party people more sense every day.
There is a difference between an education and a diploma.
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Bryan Schwegler
- Posts: 963
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:23 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
Bill Call wrote:Bryan Schwegler wrote:'cuz nothin' says "we're ready for the future" than an uneducated workforce, right?
You Tea Party people more sense every day.
There is a difference between an education and a diploma.
So explain, how do we get a highly educated workforce that's prepared with the job skills of tomorrow in order for the region to attract high-skilled businesses without providing them colleges and diplomas?
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stephen davis
- Posts: 600
- Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:49 pm
- Location: lakewood, ohio
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
Bill Call wrote:There is a difference between an education and a diploma.
There is also a difference between an education and test results.
.
Nothin' shakin' on Shakedown Street.
Used to be the heart of town.
Don't tell me this town ain't got no heart.
You just gotta poke around.
Robert Hunter/Sometimes attributed to Ezra Pound.
Used to be the heart of town.
Don't tell me this town ain't got no heart.
You just gotta poke around.
Robert Hunter/Sometimes attributed to Ezra Pound.
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Stan Austin
- Contributor
- Posts: 2465
- Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:02 pm
- Contact:
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
The Bill Call magic calculator is even better!!!!!!
that's $200 million more than Sunday!
WOW
I still think an extra $1 billion is a lot of money.
that's $200 million more than Sunday!
WOW
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Tim Liston
- Posts: 752
- Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:10 pm
Re: School Levy Theory Tested
Hey Stan….
I don’t think this is much off topic….
I bet I’m the only person in this thread that has had to fire 20 people because there was no longer enough revenue to keep them employed. That kinda sucks for me but especially for them. At least my family and I are hanging on, if only by my fingernails.
So it’s pretty damn dismaying to read that $26 billion of taxpayer dollars is about to be spent to support (only) teachers and other state and local government employees. And not one penny for those of us in the private sector. By the way 100% of the bailout money is coming from folks who can’t afford to buy food. Nice. I guess that teachers have more votes than the poverty stricken.
Believe me I have no love for GWB because of TARP and his (modest) 2008 stimulus plan but at least he made no distinction between public and private sector employees when he was doling out $600/$1200 checks. We were all the same in his eyes.
On the other hand, I had to tell my (former) employees that BHO would print/borrow money to support government jobs, but not their job. That only government jobs are worthy of saving.
Some day I will post about how the same government has stolen half my retirement nest egg to support government retirements.
Sucks…. Freaking sucks. Sucks beyond comprehension….
Tim
P.S. Stan by the way I notice that Bill’s posts are lengthy and present at least what Bill believes are facts, that you are welcome to dispute but haven’t chosen to. Your posts are two sentences with nary a citation but with a lot of ha ha ha and sarcasm and a laughing face thingy. Have you ever written a really thoughtful post or do you just take pot shots….
I don’t think this is much off topic….
I bet I’m the only person in this thread that has had to fire 20 people because there was no longer enough revenue to keep them employed. That kinda sucks for me but especially for them. At least my family and I are hanging on, if only by my fingernails.
So it’s pretty damn dismaying to read that $26 billion of taxpayer dollars is about to be spent to support (only) teachers and other state and local government employees. And not one penny for those of us in the private sector. By the way 100% of the bailout money is coming from folks who can’t afford to buy food. Nice. I guess that teachers have more votes than the poverty stricken.
Believe me I have no love for GWB because of TARP and his (modest) 2008 stimulus plan but at least he made no distinction between public and private sector employees when he was doling out $600/$1200 checks. We were all the same in his eyes.
On the other hand, I had to tell my (former) employees that BHO would print/borrow money to support government jobs, but not their job. That only government jobs are worthy of saving.
Some day I will post about how the same government has stolen half my retirement nest egg to support government retirements.
Sucks…. Freaking sucks. Sucks beyond comprehension….
Tim
P.S. Stan by the way I notice that Bill’s posts are lengthy and present at least what Bill believes are facts, that you are welcome to dispute but haven’t chosen to. Your posts are two sentences with nary a citation but with a lot of ha ha ha and sarcasm and a laughing face thingy. Have you ever written a really thoughtful post or do you just take pot shots….