Issue 6 for Lakewood Schools!

[Sean Wheeler]

Thanks Charlie. We appreciate your support.

Actually, I'm fine with my salary. What I am not fine with is anyone calling it "bloated" as I work daily with great teachers facing the prospect of being laid-off. Andre Bruwer, a 9th grade math teacher and coach of our girls' rugby team (a two- time runner-up squad nationally), is doing amazing work with his students. He is an innovator and his students are achieving at a tremndous pace. I post here because he is facing the very real prospect of being laid-off. His work is very valuable to the district. Yet, I read repeated posts that devalue his work, call into question his accountability, and cast dispersion on his students' quantifiable success. I cannot help but respond when he, and many like him, are so falsely maligned as being motivated by anything other than our students' success.

[Tim Liston]

Here is my four-step program for improving public education here in the U.S.

1) Eliminate the Department of Education, and all local boards of education.

2) Turn all public schools into charter schools.

3) Fund students, not schools. Students K-5 would get, say, $8,000 scholarships. 6-8 would get $10,000. 9-12 would get $12,000. Special needs students would get $20,000. This would be about what is spent today I think, especially given the $50 to $100 billion a year or so saved by step 1).

4) Then sit back and watch education become more effective and less expensive. Students could pick schools best suited for them, not the one that happens to be closest. Teachers could be paid based on their merits, the best paid even better than they are now. Great teachers like Andre Bruwer. Good schools would prosper, bad schools would improve or be forced to close.

It make so much sense that it will never happen. Look what happened to charter schools in D.C. (clicky). They were performing so well, parents and students were so happy with them, that the teachers' unions had them eliminated. Which speaks volumes about the unions I think....

[David Anderson]

Why not compare Lakewood with private schools, they generally have a lower per student funding than a public school and they are in education.

Three questions, Richard:

1 – How do you know this? I cannot find any complete per pupil expenditure reports for any of Ohio’s great private schools. (Tuition at private schools is often subsidized by endowments, grants, and alumni contributions.)

2 – Do you really think that 49.7%, 15.7% and 8.1% of private school students are “economically disadvantaged,” have a learning disability or are considered “limited English proficient” respectively?

3 – Where are students who fall into the three categories in question two supposed to go to school?

If you have an axe to grind with how the administrators of Lakewood schools spend money, that’s cool. But, please show us research and numbers that get to your opinion that Lakewood’s per pupil expenditure is out of whack when compared to results and similar districts.

[Gary Rice]

I want to thank Mr. Liston for putting his opinions out there, because he's not the only one who holds such views.

There are many calling for the abolition of public schools and local school boards.

Think about that for a moment, if you will...

...the education of your children, totally removed from public oversight and controls, and placed TOTALLY into the hands of the private sector....

...and yet, funded, presumably, by your tax dollars. (where else would they get the money?)

That's really the end game that some people would like to see.

Apparently, you'd get all of the "pay", and none of the "say".

What a future to contemplate....


Oh, just one more observation here...

...as a general comment only, NOT intended towards any one poster...


Take a GOOD look at some of the posts put out there by some of those public school detractors.

I have. I'm a public school teacher, (retired) remember?

Check them for accuracy, grammatical errors, spelling and punctuation errors...etc...


To me, that says more about them, than their posts do.

Back to the banjo...

[Richard Baker]

I beg to differ that private schools choose their students. They also take in economically disadvantage children, have you ever been to a inner city Catholic school? What they do not tolerate are un-disciplined students, poor teachers and an overpaid administrative staff because they don’t have a never ending source of revenue. In addition, their teacher’s compensation and benefits are less then public schools teachers.

I have every right to “grind the ax” as long as I pay property tax to support an over funded School District with poor ratings. In fact I have a more of a right to grind then any School District employee who have vested interest and even more so then districts employees not living in the district because they can’t afford Lakewood high properly taxes. Incidentally, I don’t think teacher unions give a damn about what a community can afford, it’s all about self interests.

The old garbage person’s wage comparison clause second only to parents involvement. Did you know that they are also government employees; therefore, they are paid more than the average in the private sector and have better benefits. However, they do work all year long less vacation and holidays. One thing though, they pick up all the garbage and don’t claim the neighborhood caused them to have poor performance. If you have a problem with their wages don’t vote for any additional city taxes.

Why bring in parents into the argument when many of Ohio public schools districts rank higher then Lakewood? Their success must be due to the marvelous parent’s involvement in their schools; therefore, Lakewood School District is the anomaly of all the districts with better ratings and less funding.

No one has given a legitimate reason why a school district with declining enrollment and a poor academic rating compared to present funding levels deserves additional funding other than to save teachers jobs. Many good men and women have lost their jobs because of the recession; in fact, 8.5 million jobs went overseas that this economy cannot replace.

The administration cost of $993.00 per student totals of $5,565,765.00 [five and one half million dollars] annually and of course, the building fund is probably separate since it is a capital expenditure. Now I know there are more than three funds and it would be interesting to see the details; perhaps they will post the detailed budget on their web site.

I guess the board and superintendent have decided that it is better to graduate students from a high school with a poor academic rating and leave behind vacant buildings to build new schools, so they can put their names on a bronze plaque. This school district just may be the exception to the rule if the inmates ran the asylum ………..

[Gary Rice]

Thus far, I think that the citizens of Lakewood has been really fortunate, in that they have had truly excellent public, and parochial schools.

...and yes, Richard, Catholic schools do indeed take economically disadvantaged students. These schools are a bright shining light in our community, and in so many others.

They do, however, have the right, as private institutions, to choose their students.

There is an applications approval process with private schools.

We also know that both public and parochial schools have suffered in this economy, as one nationally recognized blue ribbon school in Lakewood (St. Cyril and Methodius) is closing, and another blue ribbon school, (the public school, Grant) is also slated to close.

See, we're all in this together. We need to stick together too as an educational community, whether public or parochial.

It's very important for the supporters of parochial and charter schools to realize that those schools already do get a sizable chunk of change from our public school taxes.

If residents defeat the levy, that can all change too.

By the way, I think that it's also important for people to know that teachers in many parochial schools also belong to their own unions.

By the way, there is no one national teacher's union either. There are several different associations and affiliates, and while certainly, their primary job would be to support the interests of their teachers, they do much good for students, as well, through programs like scholarships, and collections for needy students and their families, etc....

Back to the banjo...

[Richard Baker]

We’re back at the manure pile and I’ll continue to disagree that “excellence” is an appropriate description of Lakewood School District’s overall performance and the state ranking confirms this opinion. The school board is asking the taxpayers for more funding while they continue to do business as usual. Sorry, that doesn’t cut it with me, unless the district’s performance matches their funding then no additional funding is deserved nor has it been earned.

Incidentally, the comment about grammar is impolite and inappropriate in a forum like this. If there is a problem with people’s comments, it will be better served that we stick to the issues.

[David Anderson]

Richard –

Maybe you can start by defending the premise in your question: Why a school district with declining enrollment and a poor academic rating compared to present funding levels deserves additional funding other than to save teachers jobs.

I completely understand where you are going, but I guess I’m stuck on the bold and underlined portion of your question.

Again, to what other district(s) are you comparing Lakewood’s rating/total enrollment/socio-economic profile/per pupil expenditure?



Also -

Private and charter schools do indeed choose students via an application process. In addition, they can choose to kick them out down the line as well. (This is the reason why Cleveland’s enrollment is lower in October than it is in the following February. And, guess what, the proportional share of the money doesn’t follow the student from the charter school back to the public school.)

[Stan Austin]

Incidentally, the comment about grammar is impolite and inappropriate in a forum like this.

Richard, I disagree. A forum such as the Observation Deck is comprised solely of words. The usage and any logic on which their use is constructed is the the finished presentation to any reader.

Just as at a public meeting, one's appearance factors into the intended audience's reaction, so, too, does grammar, spelling, and logic in a posting.

Good writing makes it here on the Deck just as would a professional appearance in public.

Stan Austin

[Will Brown]

Mr. Rice. You can research Mr. Shankar's statement yourself. Frankly, it defies credulity that one who describes himmself as a professional educator with involvement in the labor movement would not be aware of the statements of one of the leaders of that movement. I won't even cite his statement that most people teaching are not capable teachers, as it was long ago, and I certainly hope it is not true.

As to your hysterical lashing out at charter schools, I think that is very understandable. The public schools, overall, are not turning out a quality product, and I can understand your fear that a competitor would do a better job and drive your cronies out of business. Yes, there have been instances of knaves starting a charter school just to make a quick buck, and they seem to stay in business too long (might that be because they are monitored by the public school cabal), but there are also instances where the charter schools do a superb job, and parents clamor to have their children removed from the public schools and admitted to those charter schools. As far as parental control, we have almost no control (other than, perhaps, stopping a levy or two) over what the public schools do with our children; given charter schools, we have control in that we can decide which school is best for our child.

As for the communications skills of posters, I would be careful where you sling your mud. As most of us are products of public schools, a poster with less than perfect communications skills is most likely to be a product of public schools, and evidence that your public schools are not doing their job.

We seem to do a very good job at the college level, with a mixture of public and private schools, and free choice for the students. Why wouldn't the same mixture serve as well at the lower level. In some places, parents compete vigorously to get their children into a specific private elementary school, and offhand, I can't remember a President who chose public schools for his children.

I'm disinclined to respond further to you. You seem to sing the same verse over and over and over, and I've heard it before.

[Gary Rice]

Where, exactly, have I said anything negative here about charter schools?

Or for that matter, slung mud? As far as I am aware, I've only stated clear, and demonstrable facts.

Stan, I agree with you, and that's why I made a point of NOT directing my remarks concerning grammar etc...towards any one particular person. If I make a general point, I believe that I can back that point up with facts germane to the issue at hand. If people want to debate public education with credibility, then certainly, the quality of their own presentation can certainly help the cause of logic and rhetoric.

At the same time, I'm sure that all of us make mistakes in the passion of the moment. It's hard to proof-read, when we are thinking of a point that we want to make.

In my honest opinion, there have been a great many uncivil, incorrect, and just plain wrong things written about public education and teachers lately on this 'Deck.

Maybe we've all been a bit too passionate here. Maybe we need to cool down a bit.

Truly as well, we do need to listen to the concerns expressed here. Some people might be surprised to learn that there are some points made by the "other side", with which I could at least find partial agreement with them on.

Schools can always improve, for example.

Boards of Educations AND teachers' unions need to do better explaining about what they do in a community...

...and perhaps more importantly, they need to LISTEN.

Back to the banjo.

[David Anderson]

I’m not sure where to post this but am compelled to do so.

This entire five plus page exchange has prompted me to renew my personal pedestrian research into public school performance in light of socio-economic factors of the “customers” (parents and students), per pupil expenditures, future trends, etc. So, thank you Richard and everyone else.

With the promise that even if this levy passes we’ll be asked to pass another in three years or so, it seems to me that, regardless of school performance, district ratings and teacher salaries, our current system for delivering public education is simply not sustainable.

I know, I know. Many others across this great nation came to the same conclusion years and perhaps decades ago. (Maybe I am just that dense.)

The recent economic downturn shows precisely how an over dependence on local property taxes puts a stranglehold on communities and districts trying to sustain any level of delivery.

Here’s a possible recipe for change. Perhaps other will add more ingredients.

1-The State of Ohio must solve the un-Constitutionality of our public school funding formula once and for all. The over dependence on local property taxes is dividing communities, destroying the residential base and is not a reliable funding source. (We all know why this hasn’t been done yet. Such a “solve” requires a set minimum per pupil expenditure to be established. Nobody is willing to do this.)

2-Local districts must begin to own, drive and offer an array of school options for its customers – charter and public along with the existing private schools. District sponsored charter schools alarm teacher unions in general as does merit based pay but the jobs they save may be their own.

3-Public districts must recognize that students and parents are “customers” for whose attention and enrollment must be earned in a competitive marketplace.

4-However, certain safeguards must be put in place that ensures all students, including the ones that are expensive to teach, have fair and equal access to all school options. This is the hard one for me because I’ve seen so many examples where the charter school is only committed to the student until the student makes a mistake.

I believe in public education and that it must be the education system of choice for all or those that are being left behind will have no way out. However, perhaps the best way to save public education for all is to push its evolution so that it ends up beating the pants off of the competition.

[Sean Wheeler]

I've started a new, non-levy related, thread. I agree that charter schools, like the KIPP schools, and innovative teaching programs like Teach for America, are onto something. I have worked for the past year to adopt several of their principles, in combination with an emphasis on the smart use of technology in and out of the classroom, as a means to provide more options for LHS students.

Please take a second to view the new thread entitled "LHS 2.0". It isn't meant to sway votes either way. It is just a window into some of the ideas presented in this thread, and really shows what is now going on in a 21st century classroom.

[Danielle Masters]

I would hope that most parents would agree that choice in schooling is essential. I don't think that any of us were bashing private schools, at least I know I wasn't, I was merely making the point that private schools have the right to deny admittance to children while public schools do not have that option. And I do think that parental involvement certainly plays a key role in any choice to put a child into any school other than their neighborhood public school. Please don't misconstrue what I am saying but generally if a parent cares enough to look into alternative education opportunities for their children they are most likely going to be very involved parents and that involvement will benefit their child. Non-traditional schooling is certainly a must as all students are not created equal. But the fact that private schools can control their student population does have a positive impact on them plus they do not have to play by the same rules as public schools. The testing standards are not the same so trying to compare them is like comparing apples and oranges.

I've said it numerous times but Lakewood does a great job of teaching all children not just one type of student, I do speak from experience. Mr. Wheeler provided a link at an innovative program at the high school that shows that Lakewood can think outside of the box and thinking outside of the box does make this an excellent district and Rhonda provided a link in another thread about a history documentary from a Lakewood elementary class. As a parent I am proud to say that my children are students in two of Lakewood's excellent rated schools and I do believe in fact that they are all receiving an excellent education by excellent teachers. Wow I just used excellent quite a bit.

[Greg Morley]

I have no kids........but your kids will get my vote FOR the Levy. I think The Lakewood School District has been pretty upfront about its budget issues. By the way Mr Eisel it's nice to see you back on here. Now where can I get a sign?