So, we are not all created equally

[Stephen Eisel]

But how would I expect a person like you to understand that. As you have pointed
out, after 8 years of defending GWB, you feel the genocide of 200,000 Iraqis for
nothing to be GWB's crowning moment of glory.

But now that I think, maybe it does make sense. You are outraged that I think the
American people need a lobbyist, but you feel it should be for white, christian, straight, males.

Damn man, you have to learn where the real borders are drawn.

Still officially outraged.

I feel it should be for Pagan Buddhist Libertarian straight white males. just saying

Jim, are you saying that the US sacrificed lives and effort so the US could deliberate a systematic destruction of the Iraqi people? Jim, do you evenknow the definition of the word genocide? Jim, I do not recall Hitler fighting to give the Jews the right to vote in free elections or Hitler rebuilding areas where the Jews lived. How many German Soldiers died so Jewish people could hold free elections? Same questions could be applied to any Genocide that has taken place on this planet.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jim, are you saying that the US sacrificed lives and effort so the US could deliberate a systematic destruction of the Iraqi people? Jim, do you evenknow the definition of the word genocide? Jim, I do not recall Hitler fighting to give the Jews the right to vote in free elections or Hitler rebuilding areas where the Jews lived. How many German Soldiers died so Jewish people could hold free elections? Same questions could be applied to any Genocide that has taken place on this planet.

What I am saying is that many knew it was BS and wrong from day one. They(the government both sides) pushed ahead. When all of it was proven to be BS we continued
and merely changed the reason. Desperately trying to make the
left shoe(I hope you appreciate me using left) to fit a right foot. It was and is an illegal war.
In the end of the day, after the hundreds of lies you are so willing to forget, 200,000
innocent people killed for regime change would be genocide in my book.

I think Western Christianity defines Buddhism as a religion, and in doing so limits its potential.

FWIW


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[Roy Pitchford]

Stop me if I'm wrong...

But I fail to see where any of us are winning. Now, the past 8 years, the 8 years before that, the 12 years before that and on and on and on.

Then I think we may agree on something. R, D, I or S, politicians have been taking us down a road that very few of us like. I want change. You want change. Where we disagree is the way we want to do it.

I want to return to our founding documents. Make the government smaller and less involved in our lives. More freedom.
Jim, it sounds as though you want to government larger and more involved in our lives. Less freedom.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Stop me if I'm wrong...

But I fail to see where any of us are winning. Now, the past 8 years, the 8 years before that, the 12 years before that and on and on and on.

Then I think we may agree on something. R, D, I or S, politicians have been taking us down a road that very few of us like. I want change. You want change. Where we disagree is the way we want to do it.

I want to return to our founding documents. Make the government smaller and less involved in our lives. More freedom.
Jim, it sounds as though you want to government larger and more involved in our lives. Less freedom.

Roy

You are wrong. I am willing to bet I want less intrusion than even you.

However I fall short with what I call the LesMiz factor. Desperate people do desperate things.

The very real fact is that no matter what, people fall through the cracks and fall on tough
times. I want to make sure we can reach out and help them back to being successful members
of society. I do realize there will be abuse, and we must punish those that misuse the
system and break the laws.


FWIW

[Roy Pitchford]

You are wrong. I am willing to bet I want less intrusion than even you.

However I fall short with what I call the LesMiz factor. Desperate people do desperate things.

That doesn't seem to gel with what you've said before. I asked you:
you're willing to hand over control (i.e. cede your freedom) to the government?
You said:
In this case, I believe so.

You are in favor of government health care (in fact, I thought you said you favored the public option), but less intrusive government.

I look forward to some further clarification. I'd like to understand.

The very real fact is that no matter what, people fall through the cracks and fall on tough times. I want to make sure we can reach out and help them back to being successful members of society. I do realize there will be abuse, and we must punish those that misuse the system and break the laws.


FWIW

You can reach out and help those people, I applaud such an idea, but it needs to be you doing it, not the government acting as a proxy with your money. What is it those factory stores always say, "Cut out the middleman!!"

[Jim O'Bryan]

You are wrong. I am willing to bet I want less intrusion than even you.

However I fall short with what I call the LesMiz factor. Desperate people do desperate things.

That doesn't seem to gel with what you've said before. I asked you:
you're willing to hand over control (i.e. cede your freedom) to the government?
You said:
In this case, I believe so.

You are in favor of government health care (in fact, I thought you said you favored the public option), but less intrusive government.

I look forward to some further clarification. I'd like to understand.

The very real fact is that no matter what, people fall through the cracks and fall on tough times. I want to make sure we can reach out and help them back to being successful members of society. I do realize there will be abuse, and we must punish those that misuse the system and break the laws.


FWIW

You can reach out and help those people, I applaud such an idea, but it needs to be you doing it, not the government acting as a proxy with your money. What is it those factory stores always say, "Cut out the middleman!!"

Roy

It is really easy to understand.

When those acquire enough power to abuse the system and the citizens, sometimes, some
entity has to step in and take it back to an equal and fair playing field.

I believe the healthcare system is at that level right now. Very quickly the education(college)
is getting there as well. Energy has been there, as were the telephone companies to name
a few.

These are groups that were allowed to build monopolies and create unfair business practices.

At that point something must be done. Example would be pre-existing condition. While it
makes all the sense in the world to allow companies to say no, it creates a nightmare
downstream, as hard working people lose everything just to stay alive.

This is why education has worked. We might not all afford Harvard, but we can all afford
CSU and Tri-C. Well, except those schools are so full they have closed admission. Hence
me lumping in education.

While it might not make sense, we both believe the healthcare system has to be fixed, but
the question is now how. The fastest, simplest way would be to open medicare/medicade.

There was no better speech than 1,000 points of light by GHB. But then it did not materialize
what do we do? Keep putting the father of two in jail for stealing bread? There simply
has to be a better way.

I noticed that you seemed upset that the government is no longer testing at the border for AIDS.
Is that not an intrusion into private life?

Do we dismantle "Patriot Act and Department of Homeland Security"?

Just curious.


.

[Will Brown]

It sounds like a lot of people are feeling that their government no longer represents them.

I wonder if we have come full circle and are back where we were before the revolution.

Perhaps we should sit down and figure out just why our government is not representing us, and write a new constitution that attempts to correct those shortcomings, or is that sedition?

[Roy Pitchford]

It sounds like a lot of people are feeling that their government no longer represents them.

I wonder if we have come full circle and are back where we were before the revolution.

I might not go that far (suggesting revolution), but the more I hear, the more worried I become. I think about the grievances listed in the Declaration of Independence and think about what the President and Congress has done and I can't help but see some similarities.

Perhaps we should sit down and figure out just why our government is not representing us, and write a new constitution that attempts to correct those shortcomings, or is that sedition?

The calling for a new Constitutional Convention is possible, but if you open that can of worms, everything becomes fair game. There may not be any Freedom of Speech or Freedom of Religion, not as they exist today.

[Jim O'Bryan]

It sounds like a lot of people are feeling that their government no longer represents them.
Perhaps we should sit down and figure out just why our government is not representing us,

Will

I would leave it at this.

No need for a rewrite or new one.

The revolution has to come from us. We have got to get back to nation building here in the USA.
Or nation rebuilding. This is why we have to look deep into all of the BS that has happened
without fear of where it leads us. We looked at Whitewater, we looked into bombing baby
milk factories, we looked into watergate. We survived as a nation. some would think stronger
but not wiser. Funny so many UFO theorists claim we could not handle the truth we are
children from another world. If that were the case, and I am not syaing I believe, I think
humans could handle it. I think we are a pretty resilient lot.

We need to look at how we have lost control, and fix it. No big deal, like fixing up a house.

The Constitiution was written as you point out by people feeling like us. We just need to make
it work better for those it was written for. The American people.

I believe the fault is ours just look at the Rhetoric. Politics have become some damn game
people score like football. We won?! Damn where is the trophy? I went through 8 years of
how anti-patriotic it was to question anything. Now we are hearing from the same hypocrites
we must question everything. There has to be some sane middleground, and I would say
history tells us to...
Question everything.

FWIW


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