Copenhagen

[Roy Pitchford]

United Nations Climate Change Treaty Draft

Are you willing to see this happen?

[Jim DeVito]

HAHA I bet he woke up today and said, "Man what can I give away today?.... Ahh yes the US Sovereignty"

As for the video.

"We haven't been screwing up the climate..." Come on Roy you do not believe this do you? Are you a climate change birther?

[Roy Pitchford]

"We haven't been screwing up the climate..." Come on Roy you do not believe this do you? Are you a climate change birther?

I posted this once before:

Rule 5: "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon." There is no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.

Rule 12: "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.
-- Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals

Yes, actually, I do believe we haven't been doing this.

1. Temperatures have been cooling since 1998. If it was all our fault, temperatures would be rising. I could use the argument about how hot it was during prehistoric times and the dinosaurs' SUVs, but that's so worn out.

2. Al Gore is a hypocrite. Jetting around for his talks and taking full-size SUVs for his full entourage of people. Also, I have to say I agree with PETA on something. If he was really interested in global warming, he'd go vegetarian. Animals like cows and pigs bred for food have a greater impact on the environment. How many millions of dollars has me made with speeches? Its about the money!

3. Jim, its the weather! We can't predict it, no matter how hard any weatherman tries.

4. 30-35 years ago, wasn't everyone scared to death of global cooling? I've heard the stories. Cover the icecaps with black soot to melt them and cool the world!

Even that paragon of right-wing extremist news, the BBC, is questioning things:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8299079.stm

I apologize for not having my usual list of sources, but I haven't got enough time at the moment. I'll be back later.

[Heather Ramsey]

http://climateprogress.org/2008/08/21/d ... d-in-1998/

[Roy Pitchford]

http://climateprogress.org/2008/08/21/debunking-the-myth-global-warming-stopped-in-1998/

A Project of Center for American Progress Action Fund

I've had complaints that my sources are "right-wing" in the past. Well, if its good for the goose, I call shenanigans.

[ryan costa]

The speaker's arguments about sovereignty are quite practical for applying to Bretton Woods, NAFTA, CAFTA, the WTO.

The carbon credit trading schemes are a swindle. They are a swindle like the swindle Enron's lobbyists cajoled California legislators into designing.

The science behind climate change is generally more valid than the arguments against Climate Change. but hey: lobbyists payed a few experts to deny automobile exhaust and gasoline refining caused Smog in Las Angeles. The cigarette company lawyers managed to deny nicotine was addictive for decades.

Climatology is a great science. It is big enough to get excited about. and big enough to be far away.

Whatever we know about global warming...we know infinitely more about Oil "Addiction". Oil Addiction is a harder topic to discuss honestly. It requires admitting limitations, weakness, and the wrongness of so many policies.

Climate change is propped up so we don't have to talk about oil addiction.
Oil Addiction endures because of these things most Americans love:
1. great subsidies for sprawl.
2. great subsidies for big box retail.
3. great subsidies for big corporate agriculture
3. outsourcing/free trade.
4. big cars. fast cars.

[Heather Ramsey]

I've had complaints that my sources are "right-wing" in the past. Well, if its good for the goose, I call shenanigans.

Not from me. It links to data from NASA. Is NASA also biased? If so, I'm not sure what sort of source would be believable to you.

The thing is, I'm not a scientist and never will be, but the majority of science I have looked at tells me that we are messing with the planet in serious ways, including the oil subject that was broached above, and I'd like us to take care of it whether we're affecting the climate or not. Pollution is bad whether it's changing the temperature or just giving us lung cancer and allergies. I understand being skeptical of the science since the minority isn't always wrong, but I do NOT understand the people out there who think that everyone who would like to take care of the earth is some sort of nut working for some sort of conspiracy. What is the deal??

[Roy Pitchford]

The thing is, I'm not a scientist and never will be, but the majority of science I have looked at tells me that we are messing with the planet in serious ways, including the oil subject that was broached above, and I'd like us to take care of it whether we're affecting the climate or not. Pollution is bad whether it's changing the temperature or just giving us lung cancer and allergies. I understand being skeptical of the science since the minority isn't always wrong, but I do NOT understand the people out there who think that everyone who would like to take care of the earth is some sort of nut working for some sort of conspiracy. What is the deal??

I am not on the polar opposite of the environmental spectrum. I recycle. I walk or take alternate transportation when I can. During the warmer months of the year, I have an electric scooter that I use to the tune of 15-20 miles per week. (A nickel for electricity or $1 for a gallon of gas? Free market thinking.)
I think taking care of the planet is important, but there are some people that take it to an unreasonable degree. Al Gore talks that talk, but he doesn't walk that walk.

However, I do not believe that we are wholly responsible for what is going on and I do not believe it is the job of the government to force people to do things.
I'll do my part my way. You do your part your way.

I've had complaints that my sources are "right-wing" in the past. Well, if its good for the goose, I call shenanigans.

Not from me. It links to data from NASA. Is NASA also biased? If so, I'm not sure what sort of source would be believable to you.

Biased? I tend to doubt it. NASA seems like one of the better government agencies.
Pressured? Possibly. Many scientists have been shunned for speaking against the "settled science."
Simply incorrect? Possibly. Data can be misinterpretted and/or corrupted.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/03/24/lorne-gunter-perhaps-the-climate-change-models-are-wrong.aspx- About the Argo bouys and their tracking of the ocean temperatures
-------------------------------
Don't worry, I'm almost done.
-------------------------------
I think George Carlin puts it best.


But in case you don't like bad words, let me also include this little tidbit.
Earth's history compressed in one year

January, February, and March would be good months to stay in your cabin. The Earth’s environment was chaotic. Incessant wind and rain would erode away barren mountains faster than a plastic surgeon can erode away Michael Jackson’s nose.

Life would spring forth on April Fools Day! Sure, these single-celled organisms would be stuck in the warm coastal waters and by the thermal vents, but we’ll take what we can get. Before the end of the month multi-cellular life would pop up.

In early May Trilobites (hard shelled creatures) would start feeding on all the multi-cellular life. By the end of the month, small vertebrates would start feeding on the Trilobites. All you can eat restaurants were invented.It was nice to know that I wasn't completely lost.

Where would the Continental Divide be in June? It wouldn’t be a thrusting mass of mountains that I am walking on today. Quite the opposite! It would be a broad channel of water. You could ride your kayak down the channel! In fact, if you flew over North America in June, you’d see that 60 percent of the land is underwater. Would you see forests of trees on the land? Nope, you wouldn’t even see moss clinging to the ubiquitous rocks. Zero plant life. However, it wouldn’t be a static boring rock-filled landscape. It would be constantly eroding, pummeled by endless torrential rains that make the south-east Asian monsoons seem like a drizzle.

Half the year would go by and still no life on the land.

Finally, around the middle of July, very slowly, the first plants would gain a precarious foothold on land. For every plant that latches on the land, many will get washed away by the endless rain. The struggle of the plants to get established lasts for weeks, but they finally settle down. Vegetarians aren’t far behind.

In August the seas are crowded with fish. A few claustrophobic ones develop crude lungs, call themselves amphibians, and get timeshares on the land.Go over that pass!

In early September insects show up. Since CDT hikers hadn’t been invented yet, the mosquito started bugging the first reptiles. By the end of the month, dinosaurs start to stomp around and will continue stomping for 150 million years.

In October the Appalachian mountain range starts to rise and will be far higher than any other mountain range in the USA today. You wouldn’t find cozy shelters every 10 miles on the Appalachian Trail. But you might see packs of dinosaurs chasing the pathetic looking mammals that just start to appear. The dinosaurs thought these mammals were great snacks.

The Continental Divide would be impossible to recognize in early November. Instead of the Rocky Mountains stretching out as far as the eye can see, you’d see a massive sea that stretched from the Arctic to the Gulf of Mexico ! The most memorable event of this month is when an asteroid the size of Manhattan Island strikes the Yucatan with a force of 100 million megatons. The impact would release a heat pulse that would set off fires across the planet. The result: a planetary dinosaur barbeque. Their “two month” reign comes to an abrupt end. In the last days of November the Rocky Mountains would finally start to rise and tower over the surrounding land. The CDT wasn’t well marked then either.

In December you’d see the rapid proliferation of mammals. On Christmas Day the Colorado River would start its tedious process of slicing the Grand Canyon.It's often easier to get up high than to traverse across these slopes.

The sun would rise on December 31 and still no sign of humans. Finally, around noon, somewhere in east Africa, the first clumsy hominids would stand up. During the last hours of the year, you’d see massive sheets of ice, as tall as mountains, cover America and Euroasia. Like an accordion, you’d see the ice sheets (glaciers) come and go four times in just a few hours. It would look like a global warming yo-yo gone wild.

With one hour to go before the year ends, the Neanderthal shows up to the primate party. At 23:30 the French start showing off their artistic talent: Cro-Magnon man draws cool paintings in some caves. At 23:45 homo sapiens figure out how to make weapons of mass destruction: shap knives and spears.

Around 23:55 civilization begins. Prostitution shortly follows. Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans each spend a minute building touristy buildings. At 23:58 and 43 seconds, Jesus tells everyone to behave. We kill him a nanosecond later.

With just 20 seconds to go before the year draws to a close, Columbus bumps into America. Dick Clark is born and starts making a living counting down the seconds to the New Year. “Just 7 seconds to go!” announces Dick, and Americans sign the Declaration of Independence. In the final 7 seconds we finally arrive at the crown jewel of billion of years of evolution: Paris Hilton.

I think that puts the last 10 years and its effect on the globe into better perspective.

So, a summary: If you compress the entire history of the earth into 1 year (roughly 31,446,925 seconds), we screwed up the planet in just under 7 seconds (Industrial Revolution to Present). That's what Al Gore is telling us.

I don't think so.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Now, with all this said, I think you're missing the whole point of the initial video. This bill could be about global rights to toilet paper, it doesn't matter, it takes our God given rights from us.

[ryan costa]

It is true the Earth's climate has changed many times in the past.
It is precisely for that reason that scientists can build plausible models for how significant the amount of C02 we pump into the atmosphere is.

George Carlin is very entertaining and intelligent. His political commentary was even more intelligent.

Humankind has worked some quick mischief on the environment in the past: The Great Dustbowl is a recent example. It took less than 20 years of Model Ts and tractors to achieve the Great Dustbowl.

if Americans were concerned about treaties ceding our sovereignty they would have marched on D.C. when NAFTA, WTO, and CAFTA treaties were signed.

[Roy Pitchford]

Humankind has worked some quick mischief on the environment in the past: The Great Dustbowl is a recent example. It took less than 20 years of Model Ts and tractors to achieve the Great Dustbowl.

Coupled directly with a severe drought in a region of the country once called the Great American Desert.

if Americans were concerned about treaties ceding our sovereignty they would have marched on D.C. when NAFTA, WTO, and CAFTA treaties were signed.

What's your point? You think that its not going to be as bad as it sounds or do you think the American people just don't care about losing their sovereignty?

[Paul Schrimpf]

[quote]Humankind has worked some quick mischief on the environment in the past: The Great Dustbowl is a recent example. It took less than 20 years of Model Ts and tractors to achieve the Great Dustbowl.
[/quote]

To clarify, the Dust Bowl was a direct result of the combination of the removal of native prairie grass and a natural weather swing to severe drought. Farmers were fooled into plowing down millions of acres of deep rooted natural prairie grass to plant wheat due to an unusual period of well timed rain prior to the devastating drought through the 1930s. With nothing to hold the soil, it was swept up and moved everywhere ... dust storms were experienced all the way to the East Coast. It has never been fully restored despite all best efforts.

[ryan costa]

Humankind has worked some quick mischief on the environment in the past: The Great Dustbowl is a recent example. It took less than 20 years of Model Ts and tractors to achieve the Great Dustbowl.

To clarify, the Dust Bowl was a direct result of the combination of the removal of native prairie grass and a natural weather swing to severe drought. Farmers were fooled into plowing down millions of acres of deep rooted natural prairie grass to plant wheat due to an unusual period of well timed rain prior to the devastating drought through the 1930s. With nothing to hold the soil, it was swept up and moved everywhere ... dust storms were experienced all the way to the East Coast. It has never been fully restored despite all best efforts.

This is true. And the ability of agriculture to deplete the topsoil was greatly accelerated by cars and tractors. if they'd been stuck using draft animals, it might have taken decades or centuries to wear down the topsoil enough to leave the area so vulnerable to the Droughts that caused the Great Dustbowl. There'd be enough patches of half-dead sod, shrubs, and dead rooted crops to prevent the drought from escalating into the dustbowl.

Humankind has worked some quick mischief on the environment in the past: The Great Dustbowl is a recent example. It took less than 20 years of Model Ts and tractors to achieve the Great Dustbowl.

Coupled directly with a severe drought in a region of the country once called the Great American Desert.

The kind of desert covered with tall grass, shrubs, and scatterings of tough trees at the occasional spring.

Here is a picture of some of the chest high grass covering most of the "Great American Desert"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_Desert

if Americans were concerned about treaties ceding our sovereignty they would have marched on D.C. when NAFTA, WTO, and CAFTA treaties were signed.

What's your point? You think that its not going to be as bad as it sounds or do you think the American people just don't care about losing their sovereignty?

I personally believe that there is nothing left to do about global climate change but get hit by it. whether it is significant change or mild change. whether it is manmade or not manmade.

Americas top wars are on Oil regions. We don't go to war with China for pumping so much C02 into the air when they build most of the stuff we buy at the store and then throw away within 3 years.
C02 allowance trading is an irrational proposition from people who believe in mitigating C02 production. The only rational way to mitigate C02 production is to eliminate the unrestricted free trade movement. Traditional American tariffs are the only way to mitigate excessive trade.

[ryan costa]

The Great American desert was actually temperate grasslands, Savannas, Shrublands, and Prairie.

"Great American Desert" became the brand name: up until this time nearly all of the land that colonists and pioneers encountered east of the mississippi was covered by Enormous trees and thick layers of topsoil, ponds, rivers, streams, and lakes.

Desertification is a frequently observed form of climate change created by overgrazing, over plowing, soil salinization due to over irrigation and erosion. This is a process that readily changes patterns of wind, temperature variance, and precipitation as observed during the Great Dustbowl days.

[Bill Call]

Not from me. It links to data from NASA. Is NASA also biased? If so, I'm not sure what sort of source would be believable to you.

Yes, NASA is biased.

The whole global warming hysteria is just that, hysteria.

There is no such thing as man made global warming.

If you are concerned about the environment then support nuclear power.

Wind power has some small advantages and should be pursued but in most cases it is a waste of resources. Wind mills kill more birds than any oil spill every did. The absence of outrage should tell you all you need to know.

Solar power might be cost effective sooner than you think.

Cap and trade and the global warming agenda have nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with the desire of internationalists to reverse the last two hundred years of history. The global warming movement is the last hiding place of the socialist international.

The Earth is not warming it is cooling.

[ryan costa]

Are all these polar ice caps and glaciers melting because it is getting cooler? Maybe...all that cold water they dump into the oceans is affecting prevailing currents and prevailing wind temperatures? good luck growing commodity quantities of wheat and soybeans and corn when the temperature variances change from heat waves to freak cold spells, from drought to deluges several times a growing season.

cars and housecats kill more birds than windmills ever will. do you even really care that much about birds?

If the Republicans had put as much time and money into selling the idea of building nuclear power plants and more offshore drilling as they did into invading iraq, there would be more nuclear power plants and offshore oil drilling under development today.

It is popular to quip that America is even more dependent on oil imports than after the Carter Administration formed the department of energy. Reagan and Greenspan's policies were to dramatically lower interest rates. they could do this because interest rates were high when they started. This continued for about 30 years. Subsidies for sprawl infrastructure increased. corporate welfare for big developers. giant office buildings and shopping malls popped up all over. new subdivisions popped up all over. Factories, mills, and family farms all over continued to die off or downsize. but new shopping malls were going up all over. the faster sprawl builds up, the faster most cities and old suburbs and towns slum up. That is the growth of the 80s: greater fiat currency, sprawl, junk bond financing, corporate bankruptcies of leveraged buyout geniuses being unable to pay off their junk bonds.

Not sure what an internationalist is. Are they the guys like Stephen Moore at the CATO institute that keep pushing for binding free trade deals? It is nice to be a billionaire in stock, but even nicer when a saipan firm or some foreign firm pays you a billion dollars for that stock. they usually come from nations with higher taxes or very oppressive government: is the goal of a nation to produce more billionaires and firms with billion dollar checking accounts?

What are the last 200 years of history? From 1783 through the 1800s The USA was the most socialist nation in the world in Deeds if not words. It was all about a popular government re-distributing land.
Here is a map of the 13 colonies. bear in mind much of the areas east of the proclamation line were scarcely populated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_o ... h_1775.svg

Even if the Indians don't really matter, our popular government embarked on a series of wars and coercion against Britain, Spain, Mexico, and France to get more land to redistribute to themselves. even in the case of the Louisiana purchase we were again fortunate that France was so bogged down in wars with other European Nations they had to sell it before we took it anyways.

Our favorite immigrants from northwestern europe did not write home about how they got to vote or statism or the lack of statism. They wrote back about how cheap land was. How the popular government made land so cheap. How much more meat and cheese and booze they had. How they didn't have to kowtow to the Nobility and old money families. How they didn't get jerked around by the higher-ups in the professional guilds so much before being allowed to set up their own shops or practices. This stuff registered in Europe. How could Europeans make Europe more like America? It was harder to redistribute land: most of it was owned by the nobility and old families. they had to come up with new vocabularies to facilitate this. U.S. success is not a testament to the value of libertarian ideals: it is a result of an enormous endowment of rich land, isolation, and facing far fewer challenges than most european nations were entangled in. It helps that we were not colonized along the Feudal Spaniard patterns of South America: they were aristocrats who greatly valued the rights to their property.

In conclusion, the glory years of the last 200 years were made possible by paleo-socialism, tariffs, and an unprecedented abundance of richly endowed land.

In conclusion, global climate change through C02 is just as real as observed regional climate change brought on by man-made desertification.

The Cap and Trade swindle is a futile work-around contrived to deny the fact that tariffs and a well regulated fiat currency are necessary and good.