Phase III Comments and Discussion

[sharon kinsella]

Thank you Kristene for your clear and truthful answer. It is nice to see a new person come on and repeat what has already been said by many.

It's amazing, how many people from the committee are starting to step forward as to what was done.

As an older activist, I truly have limited my community participation in the last 10 years or so. But this issue is striking at something near and dear to my heart. This is about the lives of children vs. the wallet. Personally I find that to be reprehensible.

Thank you again.

[robert klann]

Kristine,

Two topics I would like to cover (density and new school boundary lines/walking distance)

Density really should be looked at some more by the coordinating council.

Please do a little homework with the numbers on the map.

The density map presented at the forum shows Kauffman Park, the Drug Mart Shopping Center and its parking, Lakewood Hospital and its Parking Garage, Marcs Shopping Center and its parking, the Post Office and its parking, Lakewood Board of Education and other numerous commercial areas as “High Density residential”. Graphically very misleading.

I have communicated with J Strok (name on the bottom left of the map as being prepared by). Below is text from his email to me.

“Ahmie Yeung specified how to break up the area studied.

I provided Mrs. Yeung with assistance in creating a map to analyze the area in her specifications. She provided the student counts and I helped geocode that data. The housing data was all taken from publicly available sources. The ultimate interpretation of these maps were made by Mrs. Yeung.”

Critical in the text of that email is “how to break up the areas”.

I have attached another density map but this time let someone else break up the areas.

[Danielle Masters]

What would be nice to know is how many children attending each elementary school live in that area. We have open enrollment in this district and from what I have noticed the enrollment numbers of the schools don't mean the children reside within those boundaries. So the enrollment numbers are in a way deceiving.

I have searched for the data and have requested the information. All things aside how many children attending each elementary school live within it's boundaries? Are we a community that wants our children to go to school with our neighbors? Or does it no longer matter? Should we just bus our kids so we can decide which neighborhood we want our kids to go to?

I guess it's a personal decision and I understand that for some, although a very small percentage, certain programs are not offered at their community school so they will have no choice but to send their children to another school besides their home school. But when I hear things like x school performs better than my home school even though x and home school both received the same excellent rating from the state I begin to wonder what the true reasons are.

Just throwing that out there.

[sharon kinsella]

Isn't Grant a newer building?

Grant is also bordered by houses on 3 sides, Lincoln is at the corner with Clifton on one side and Lake Ave. on the other.

What is the possibility that parents at Lincoln have more vehicles than the parents of Grant students. Why is no one noticing the rentals surrounding Grant as opposed to huge homes surrounding Lincoln.

Class discrimination? Nah, not here. Plans made a long time ago with developers? McKinley still vacant. All Lakewood schools are to the South or North, so the great divide is the decider.

Sad people.

[Ryan Salo]

Class discrimination? .... Sad people.

Sharon,

Can anyone that disagrees with you ever just simply disagree or must they also have some bigger motive to put people down or shut people out or discriminate against the little people?

Those that disagree with obama you call racists and those that disagree with you on this are discriminating against a lower class???

Please have more respect for people that disagree with you. I have learned that I can always learn something from someone I disagree with. I wouldn't be able to if I viewed them as haters.

I want to disclose that my kids go to Lincoln but I went to Grant. I moved halfway through my years there and walked rain, snow or sun 1.7 miles to school. Kids are tough, they can handle a walk.

BTW - Lincoln is on the south side of Clifton.

[Charlie Page]

What is the possibility that parents at Lincoln have more vehicles than the parents of Grant students. Why is no one noticing the rentals surrounding Grant as opposed to huge homes surrounding Lincoln.

When driving around the Grant area, there sure seems to be a lot of cars parked in the streets and in driveways.

Most of the Lincoln circle area is south of Clifton. The houses there are pretty much the same as all over the Grant area. The huge homes are in the northwest corner and along the lake. There’s plenty of apartments and rentals along Clifton too.

[Danielle Masters]

Just to be clear. Lakewood bills itself as a walkable city as a selling point. See the city website: http://www.onelakewood.com/blog/2009/09 ... etter.html

The community has said walkability to the schools is very important.

But people are perfectly fine with not having an elementary school anywhere between Athens and the railroad tracks?

That seems like a large area of the city that is going to be left uncovered, especially since so many of the cities amenities are in that area. I guess we'll just let future and current residents know that walking to schools is underrated even while we say walking to local stores is uber important. Hmm...

[sharon kinsella]

Ryan and Charlie - you seem to think that everything I say is wrong.

Don't you think that sometimes, what I have to say is valid? Or do you just hate people like me so much that you see me and you turn into flaming haters? Do you really think that I don't see through you and your ilk?

Get over yourselves boys. You lost on the national front and you've lost it all in Ohio. You're not doing so hot in Lakewood either. Learn from your mistakes or be happy with being irrelevant.

Ryan will probably succeed in getting on council. He'll achieve a couple of good things, but spend too much time whining and spinning his wheels.

Don't you know that your seething animosity comes off whiney? Are all republicans in town whiners? Learn to take a punch like a an adult boys. You're getting boring and predictable.

I notice your little playground bombed. What's that tell you?

Then again I do find you amusing.

[Danielle Masters]

And one thing again that we don't seem to be having discussion about is by the data that was put in the powerpoint display at the community meeting 120 additional students would be 3/4 of a mile or further from an elementary school if Grant closes while only 60 students would be that same distance away if Lincoln closes. 60 more students would be affected if Grant closes, double the amount affected if Lincoln closed. But once again why get facts get in the way. I guess people are truly worried about the kids.

[Charlie Page]

And one thing again that we don't seem to be having discussion about is by the data that was put in the powerpoint display at the community meeting 120 additional students would be 3/4 of a mile or further from an elementary school if Grant closes while only 60 students would be that same distance away if Lincoln closes. 60 more students would be affected if Grant closes, double the amount affected if Lincoln closed. But once again why get facts get in the way. I guess people are truly worried about the kids.

Yes, from looking at the circles, 120 kids from the Grant area will be walking more than 3/4 of a mile vs 60 kids in the Lincoln area. Nobody seems to care those 60 kids will have to cross two very dangerous intersections that the Grant area kids won’t have to cross, Lake and Clifton. Sometimes I take Lake to work downtown. If you’re not doing at least 40, people are passing you. The six lanes on Clifton are even worse. In my opinion, crossing Lake and Clifton are worse than crossing Detroit and the tracks.

It comes down to counting the dots. Dr. Madak spoke at one of the Phase III meetings (in May or June I believe) about the dangers of counting dots. I’m with him on this one unless there is evidence that dots vibrate but don’t change over a long period of time (there has to be data on this – how can we get it?). Even then, the definition of walkability is not having the little ones cross 4 dangerous intersections to get to school each day.

[sharon kinsella]

So it doesn't matter that 120 kids have to cross Clifton as opposed to 60?

But according to you the Grant kids wouldn't have to cross a busy street. Can they jump it?

[Charlie Page]

So it doesn't matter that 120 kids have to cross Clifton as opposed to 60?

But according to you the Grant kids wouldn't have to cross a busy street. Can they jump it?

I don’t think the Grant area kids would have to jump across as Lincoln is on the south side of Clifton.

I never said Grant kids wouldn't have to cross a busy street.

In my opinion, crossing Lake and Clifton are worse than crossing Detroit and the tracks.

That’s my opinion and you are entitled to yours.

[Jim O'Bryan]

there is evidence that dots vibrate but don’t change over a long period of time (there has to be data on this – how can we get it?). Even then, the definition of walkability is not having the little ones cross 4 dangerous intersections to get to school each day.

Charlie

I suppose my question would be why are we asking for information that should have been
the basis of this study from day one? It seems to me that much of the discussion was,
"walkability, and safety" for the kids obe the next 5? 10? 15? 25? 50? years. To my limited
understanding of the process the DOTS are why this was being studied. The movement
of those dots should have been made day one, not dismissed day one.

However this is the part of the maps that Robert posted that I found most interesting.

All the other divisions for schools follow nice straight lines. But the division here seems
to take a crazy jog. Instead of ending on the lake, it takes a wild jog 3/4s of the way
down Edgewater to an area where I could chip a golf ball to Horace Mann. What could
have possibly caused this crazy border?

How odd?

Makes one wonder?

Well lets get back to discussing how unimportant the students er dots are in this decision.

FWIW

[Danielle Masters]

Justify justify justify.

Who cares that 50% of the buildings (66% of the capacity as Horace Mann and Emerson are the largest buildings) and going to be north of the tracks where only 30% of the students reside. This is so blatantly biased it's disgusting.

All I want is this decision to be based on facts, to be based on what is best for the students and the fact is yes the dots will change but there is more turnover in lower property value areas. Lakewood is a transistional area, especially where there are loads of rentals. The dots will move and the dots will be replaced, that how doubles work. Single family homes are different especially when the values are higher, the dots don't change with the same frequency.

I know people's minds are made. This is an emotional decision for many. But this should be about what is best for the majority of students. All students should be valued. Think of the children, not money, not potential cash cow properties. Think of the message this gives to the community. We need a school in the center of town, we started with 4 and soon we might have none. So the people who bought in the center of town, the people who bought on Belle, Arthur, St. Charles, Mars they will no longer truly live in the most walkable area of town and that just blows my mind. The message would then become Lakewood is walkable if you want to spend money but not if you care about letting you kids walk to school, when it should be walkable for both.

Hmmm....

[Ken Wilder]

Two topics I would like to cover (density and new school boundary lines/walking distance)

Density really should be looked at some more by the coordinating council.

Robert

You seem to indicate as do others that after 9 months the schools are still not forthcoming with data, and information that should have been made available to all committee members from the very first day. This would indicate to me, along with the comments others have posted from the first day that the Superintendent asked all to disregard information which seems to indicate a push in a certain direction from the very first moment.

Does or can anyone layout exactly what was discussed? What was the committee asked to study? Was it what was best for the families? The schools? The bottom line? Did everyone understand the final selection process? I find it highly irregular to keep asking for new participants for every meeting, with a desperate plea for as many as possible for the last meeting? Does this not create a logistical nightmare bringing people up to speed? Does this not also allow one group to stuff the ballot at the very end? The guy I have coffee with in the afternoon told me his wife was told to show up by one of the schools PTA has push redevelopment. How would this even be fare, what alone legal?

You questioning density, and how you question it, seems almost like slight of hand as well. I would say that an area with a high living density, with malls, and large commercial area are actually more dense not less dense. Certainly less dense in cubic meters/feet, but much higher density in living area.

I did snicker at Jim's map catch. I take it the mayor or someone with power lives somewhere on that extension. This morning I ran down Edgewater and the divide makes no sense at all except for 7 very large homes and their occupants who obviously paid someone off to change the straightline to allow their children to go to Lincoln!!!

Small town politics!!!!!

“We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of the good people.” Martin Luther King, Jr.