How did you feel about ACORN?

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Roy Pitchford
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Re: How did you feel about ACORN?

Post by Roy Pitchford »

Brian Pedaci wrote:
I'm sure they have, but they've also helped the Dallas Cowboys vote in Florida, Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck and countless other imaginary and duplicated individuals.

Interesting. I remember the issues with voter registration. Do you have any reports of Mickey or Donald actually showing up to vote?
No I don't. Fraud, in its own right, is still a crime.

Brian Pedaci wrote:The bottom line is that ACORN appears to be an organization with noble ideals that's too big to efficiently manage itself. They set goals, but offer minimal training or oversight, then act surprised when some people take unethical means to meet those goals. Nothing uncovered has proven a culture of corruption at the top levels of the organization, only at the bottom (and damn if people haven't been trying, every day, for about two years now). I was supremely unimpressed with Bertha Lewis' performance in Chris Wallace's interview where she repeatedly dodged Rep. Issa's request that they show some transparency and accountability that grant money received went towards the intended purpose. It also does not impress me that they have selected former MA AG Scott Harshbarger to run their internal audit. They could more effectively silence their critics by selecting an outside, impartial auditing firm and completely opening their books to show whether or not there are efforts in place to 'firewall' each constituent organization's funds as claimed. But until they do, by choice or subpoena, there is not enough evidence to proclaim them guilty prematurely.

That is a fair statement.
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Brian Pedaci
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Re: How did you feel about ACORN?

Post by Brian Pedaci »

Fraud, in its own right, is still a crime.

And as we've discussed ad nauseum in other threads, in those cases it was the individual employees committing fraud against ACORN, not ACORN committing fraud against the government.
dl meckes
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Re: How did you feel about ACORN?

Post by dl meckes »

Roy Pitchford
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Re: How did you feel about ACORN?

Post by Roy Pitchford »

dl meckes wrote:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/23/AR2009092303679.html

(Sorry for the delay, I've been doing a lot of other things lately.)
Are you using that article to show the good ACORN does?

If you dig down a little, their actions with housing helped lead to the crash, their voter registration is suspect at best (they are thinking about getting rid of it due to all the problems) and their efforts with the minimum wage hurt employment.
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sharon kinsella
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Re: How did you feel about ACORN?

Post by sharon kinsella »

What led to the housing crisis was greed. The banks, unscrupulous mortgage bankers and brokers, sub-prime loans. It was the fat cats, not the lean ones. Do not try and deflect the blame.

Voter registration did get out of control, by trying to do too much without enough funding to provide proper supervision, some rogue employees ran rough shod and went overboard. Kind of like the DOD, but I digress.

Minimum wage did not hurt employment. Employers who want to keep up profits and starve workers are what are killing manufacturing in our country. When they can't scam our workforce. they move operations to China, where labor is cheap because people are viewed as disposable. They get away with this because import agreements have not been regulated due to the agencies who enforce being dismantled during the Bush administration.

You will blow this information off because in your and other republican estimations, liberals don't know what they're talking about when it comes to economics. The republicans are so much wiser about these things that the republican administration created the largest deficit in the history of our country after being gifted with a healthy economy.

Rape and pillage, yep that'sreal conservative.
"When I dare to be powerful -- to use my strength in the service of my vision, then it becomes less and less important whether I am afraid." - Audre Lorde
Roy Pitchford
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Re: How did you feel about ACORN?

Post by Roy Pitchford »

First off, I'd like to post this URL. I heard about this Congressional report a few days ago:

http://republicans.oversight.house.gov/media/pdfs/20090723ACORNReport.pdf
Accusations of fraud (non-voter registration kind), racketeering and embezzlement.

sharon kinsella wrote:What led to the housing crisis was greed. The banks, unscrupulous mortgage bankers and brokers, sub-prime loans. It was the fat cats, not the lean ones. Do not try and deflect the blame.

http://www.aei.org/issue/100001
Through new rules connected with the Community Reinvestment Act, banks were pressured into giving loans to families that were a greater risk than the banks would normally lend to.

Quoting the above article:
In 1995, the regulators created new rules that sought to establish objective criteria for determining whether a bank was meeting CRA standards. Examiners no longer had the discretion they once had. For banks, simply proving that they were looking for qualified buyers was not enough. Banks now had to show that they had actually made a requisite number of loans to low- and moderate-income (LMI) borrowers. The new regulations also required the use of "innovative or flexible" lending practices to address credit needs of LMI borrowers and neighborhoods. Thus, a law that was originally intended to encourage banks to use safe and sound practices in lending now required them to be "innovative" and "flexible." In other words, it called for the relaxation of lending standards, and it was the bank regulators who were expected to enforce these relaxed standards.

ACORN lobbied to have these standards reduced as well as pressured banks into making increasingly more loans.

sharon kinsella wrote:Voter registration did get out of control, by trying to do too much without enough funding to provide proper supervision, some rogue employees ran rough shod and went overboard. Kind of like the DOD, but I digress.

The jury is still out.

I recently saw some video from the Wisconsin Historical Society which seems to demonstrate that they've been teaching aggressive registration tactics for a long time. Granted, it wasn't pushing voter registration fraud.

sharon kinsella wrote:Minimum wage did not hurt employment. Employers who want to keep up profits and starve workers are what are killing manufacturing in our country. When they can't scam our workforce. they move operations to China, where labor is cheap because people are viewed as disposable. They get away with this because import agreements have not been regulated due to the agencies who enforce being dismantled during the Bush administration.


Young people are the ones most affected by the minimum wage because they're just putting their experience and skill sets together. But how can they get experience when their skills aren't worth the minimum wage? The unemployment rate for those 16 to 24 is now higher than any point since at least 1948.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/youth.nr0.htm
(Last paragraph.)

sharon kinsella wrote:You will blow this information off because in your and other republican estimations, liberals don't know what they're talking about when it comes to economics.

I see some inflammatory statements made about bankers (greedy, fat cats) and employers (they want to starve workers). Did I miss the economics?? Give me some numbers, links to articles or something to work with.
I could name call too, but that only degrades the conversation into a playground shouting match which resolves nothing.

sharon kinsella wrote:The republicans are so much wiser about these things that the republican administration created the largest deficit in the history of our country after being gifted with a healthy economy.

Ummm, second biggest deficit.

Just for the record: You talked about republicans a lot. I've stopped looking at politics in terms of (R) and (D). I'm sick of it. Just about every one of the politicians in DC is screwing things up for us.
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sharon kinsella
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Re: How did you feel about ACORN?

Post by sharon kinsella »

http://www.aei.org/history

This was what I was interested in the link you up. The group was found on the princples of the libetarians and republicans and the board is members of the banking industry.

The banks were red-lining and the new regulations we made to give regular income people a shot at the "American Dream". It's not supposed to be out of reach for normal working stiffs, remember.

Unemployment is higher right now for teenagers because it's higher right now for everyone.

And yes I made cracks about fat cats (bankers, brokers and hedgefund manipulators). And republicans (conservatives, libetarians, evangelical christians, eagle forum women also). You might not like the word but the clothes seem to fit. That's your choice hun. Stand up and be proud of who you are and what you like and don't like. That's what I do.

I just may be a little rougher around the edges, or blunter than some would like, but I honestly don't care.

This was amazingly hard to type because my night time medications are kicking in and I'm starting to see double. Heaven knows how I've spelled anything, but I'm sure you'll get the drift.
"When I dare to be powerful -- to use my strength in the service of my vision, then it becomes less and less important whether I am afraid." - Audre Lorde
Roy Pitchford
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Re: How did you feel about ACORN?

Post by Roy Pitchford »

sharon kinsella wrote:The banks were red-lining and the new regulations we made to give regular income people a shot at the "American Dream". It's not supposed to be out of reach for normal working stiffs, remember.

Define "regular income people".

You know, something just struck me about what you wrote. If the "American Dream" was not "out of reach", as you phrased it, it wouldn't be much a dream. It would be the "American Reality".
Its called a dream because you must work hard to get it. If you can't obtain the goals you want, work harder.

sharon kinsella wrote:Unemployment is higher right now for teenagers because it's higher right now for everyone.


http://www.komu.com/satellite/SatelliteRender/KOMU.com/ba8a4513-c0a8-2f11-0063-9bd94c70b769/22038323-80ce-0971-01bb-6740baea1738


sharon kinsella wrote:I just may be a little rougher around the edges, or blunter than some would like, but I honestly don't care.

I don't mind you're being rougher or more blunt, but you're not backing anything up.

sharon kinsella wrote:This was amazingly hard to type because my night time medications are kicking in and I'm starting to see double. Heaven knows how I've spelled anything, but I'm sure you'll get the drift.

Yes, I do get the drift.
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sharon kinsella
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Re: How did you feel about ACORN?

Post by sharon kinsella »

Did you read dl's link - The Washington Post - your back up was ludicrous. A conservative think tank, invalid.

You have nothing of worth to say if you think something like that validates your rhetoric.
"When I dare to be powerful -- to use my strength in the service of my vision, then it becomes less and less important whether I am afraid." - Audre Lorde
Roy Pitchford
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Re: How did you feel about ACORN?

Post by Roy Pitchford »

Are you discounting everything I say because of one questionable source? If you can dispute anything more, I'm all ears.

While you work on that, I'll look for more substantial sources regarding ACORN and the housing bubble.
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Jim DeVito
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Re: How did you feel about ACORN?

Post by Jim DeVito »

Oh man I missed that part where we are still talking about acorn... but since we are can we add blackwater to the list of people who receive federal money who should not.
David Lay
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Re: How did you feel about ACORN?

Post by David Lay »

Jim DeVito wrote:Oh man I missed that part where we are still talking about acorn... but since we are can we add blackwater to the list of people who receive federal money who should not.


While we're at it, how about those no-bid contracts?
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Charlie Page
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Re: How did you feel about ACORN?

Post by Charlie Page »

How about the 529 million to Fisker Automotive who doesn’t even produce cars in the US. And the cars won’t even be sold in the US, for years anyway. It just happens that Al Gore is a partner in the venture capital firm that owns Fisker and employees also gave over 2 million to the dems. No one says payback like Obama.
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Roy Pitchford
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Re: How did you feel about ACORN?

Post by Roy Pitchford »

Jim DeVito wrote:Oh man I missed that part where we are still talking about acorn... but since we are can we add blackwater to the list of people who receive federal money who should not.


1. I see this as an attempt to shift the discussion. Do you find it hard to defend ACORN?

2. There should be little or no valid comparison between ACORN and Blackwater.

ACORN is a conglomeration of organizations. To my knowledge, all are non-profit. Some are tax-exempt and thus are required by law to be non-partisan and have specific restrictions on the money they are given. Some are not tax-exempt.

Blackwater is a for-profit paramilitary corporation.
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Now, with that said, I'm still going to address this as best as I can.

I've done some reading on Blackwater and its actions during the Iraq war. Its record is far from flawless. Its had good and bad, just like ACORN. The difference is in scope.
"Mistakes" at ACORN "just" result in registering a few too many people to vote or helping in the creation of a brothel for underage illegal girls.
"Mistakes" at Blackwater means lives are on the line.

Given their record, if I was in Washington, I'd have reservations about hiring Blackwater for large, important tasks.

Granted, this is just based on what I've read in a handful of places and its late, so I'm not thinking at 100%

Charlie Page wrote:How about the 529 million to Fisker Automotive who doesn’t even produce cars in the US. And the cars won’t even be sold in the US, for years anyway. It just happens that Al Gore is a partner in the venture capital firm that owns Fisker and employees also gave over 2 million to the dems. No one says payback like Obama.

Too bad those Olympics didn't work out for Valerie Jarrett. Obama spent how many millions of our tax dollars (not to mention the carbon footprint) flying, not one, but two massive jets with escort, halfway across the world to give a little speech that would have made her who knows how much money when she unloaded her Chicago slums to build the Olympic Village.
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