Phase III Comments and Discussion

[sharon kinsella]

Ahmie what format is this in? My Wordpad didn't translate it.

[Ahmie Yeung]

Ahmie what format is this in? My Wordpad didn't translate it.

It's an Excel spreadsheet. If you don't have Microsoft Office Suite, you can get Open Office (which is free, open-source software) or use Google Docs if you have a Google/Gmail account (which are also free to sign up for). The document doesn't print well, I was trying to fit all the needed information into a matrix that was given to me, not the way I would have organized the information if it was up to me.

[sharon kinsella]

I finally, with the advice of my computer goddess, was able to download the matrix that Ahmie posted.

I hope everyone on this thread did this or does this.

From what I see, it looks like over 300 kids already travel more than 3/4 mile to go to Grant. How far would many of these kids, many who have no car in the family, have to walk? It was one thing, when I was young ,to walk back and forth to school at St. James from Graber on the far west end. There was nowhere near the amount of traffic as there is now. My kids didn't have to walk more than 1/4 mile while in grade school. By middle school they can handle a longer walk, even in winter, but not these little ones. Not on these high traffic routes.

This is absolutely ridiculous. They closed McKinley and now they're taking Grant? I don't think so.

We cannot let them do this.

[Ahmie Yeung]

to be clear, there aren't 300 kids walking more than 3/4th mile to go to Grant (I'm not quite sure where you got that from). With the 7 school configuration, there are about 130 kids district-wide walking more than 3/4th mile to ANY school, these are the kids in the horizontal center swath, on the far west and east ends of town. Removing Lincoln increases it by 60-70, which is on par with what happened in earlier phases of this project. Remove Grant and you double the current number (and it's double the number of kids affected by removing Lincoln).

I'm really nauseous and need to get my butt in gear to get to a 4pm meeting, so I can't really think about this any more than that -just wanted to clarify what may have actually just been a typo.

[sharon kinsella]

In the first configuration it said .75 mi. for 300 some student at Grant.

Maybe it doesn't read the way it appears but it still ridiculous to wind up with even 260 from an area where it is likely that some of the parents can drive them.

[Ahmie Yeung]

In the first configuration it said .75 mi. for 300 some student at Grant.

Maybe it doesn't read the way it appears but it still ridiculous to wind up with even 260 from an area where it is likely that some of the parents can drive them.

I think it's opening to the last page that I looked at instead of the first page of the document (which is something weird that Excel does sometimes). I think you're actually looking at one of the later tabs of the spreadsheet, the one labeled "dot-circle explaination". That table (poorly copy-and-pasted below to try to see if we're actually talking about the same thing) shows is the number of kids inside a circle drawn around a school, with the radius line the length indicated. So there are 111 kids within a .25mi circle around Grant. It's a little unclear to me still if the other circles are only counting kids between the two circles, or cumulatively adding, but it reports that there are 313 kids within .5 mile (as the crow flies) around Grant. Grant also has the highest number of kids in the total column, with 940 - second place goes to Roosevelt at 679 and third place to Lincoln at 614. None of the already-rebuilt schools break 600 for their totals, Hayes doesn't even break 500 - some of that is due to the fact that every school except Grant has it's circles extend outside the school boundary lines (into the lake or into Cleveland/Rocky River, or both). HM's 1/2mi circle extends almost to the river on it's western side, Emerson's .75mi circle I believe touches the Cleveland border on the east side. Lincoln, HM, and Emerson's 1/2mi circles all include a significant portion of the lake. Hayes, Roosevelt, and Harrison all cross into Cleveland to the south with even just their 1/2mi circles. So the coverage areas with the circles for those schools are covering areas where enrolled students won't be coming from. I added in periods to try to get the columns to line up.

Home Address Student Count
School 0.25 Mile 0.50 Mile 0.75 Mile > 0.75 Mile Total
Emerson..95........109............328...............11.........543
Grant .....111......313.............516...............0..........940
Harrison ..84.......258.............253...............0..........595
Hayes......57.......170.............222..............11.........460
Lincoln ...125.......227............262...............0..........614
HM.........63........170............249..............23..........505
Roosevelt.112......236............331..............0............679

So, my understanding of this is that there are actually 424 kids within a .5mi radius of Grant, and 352 within a .5mi radius of Lincoln (I had no hand in generating these numbers, this and the original maps with dots and circles on them are all that was provided to my committee other than when they finally gave me the addresses from which enrolled children came from - which they didn't give me until early June despite my asking for it repeatedly from before I was co-chair and officially as co-chair starting at the beginning of May). When looking at that table, you also have to bear in mind that there is as much overlap between Lincoln and Grant's .5mi circles as there is overlap with the lake in Lincoln's circle, so that about 1/2 of Lincoln's entire .5mi circle is either in the lake or within Grant's .5mi circle. The same page in the spreadsheet has another table indicating overlapping student count, and indicates there are 461 students in the area where Lincoln and Grant's circles overlap (I'm assuming that means going out to the .75mi circle but it was never indicated definitively).

I've been asking for months, if there are 461 students just in the area where Lincoln and Grant's radius circles overlap, but only 614 students total in Lincoln's circles where there's 940 in Grant's, doesn't that right there kinda tell you that 1.) a school is desperately needed in this area (since the capacity is only supposed to be about 475) and that Grant is better located to serve the population?

Pesky, inconvenient facts - hope I've whipped them into more coherent shape for you. If that wasn't the part you were talking about, let me know. There's a LOT more data in that file than just that one page.

[sharon kinsella]

Thank you. Yes it was. I thought it was exact figures. I didn't know that it was a configuration from the area.

Still too many kids walking in high traffic.

Hopefully the chart holds actual projections on how far kids would have to walk with either option. I'm more concerned about the Grant kids because of there may be less of a chance for those kids to have rides, unless we're going to start transporting them.

[Ahmie Yeung]

Busing is not a financially viable option, we've been told repeatedly. I did some projections but they've been pretty roundly ignored. I based them on a flat across-the-board 10% of households having k-5 aged children in them (which is what the Census shows we've had in the past - current enrollment in the public schools as of last May was 9.4%, so it's probably close with some kids going to private schools - they'd show up in the census but not in enrollment). I've not seen any projections done by anyone else and from looking at the family distribution around the schools that have already been reconfigured, I have suspicions that they weren't done at any point of this. Emerson has such a low density of households with children (they have high housing density, but looking at where kids are coming from, those condos are not appealing to families with children - less than 1% of the condo units have an elementary kid in them).

One of the other tabs is calculations of how far kids would have to walk in other configurations, and the distance from the door of each potentially decommissioned school to the door of the other "receiving" schools was calculated out. I also selected some addresses in the most impacted area and did walking distances from those addresses to the other schools, as well as counting how many children were currently enrolled living within a 1/10th mile radius of that address.

[Ahmie Yeung]

I just got my paws on some demographic information about who it was that attended that "forum" on September 15th... here's some quick calculations:

There were more people there representing children attending Lincoln than there were people there for all 4 south-of-the-tracks schools COMBINED - 61 to 57. Add in the people there representing HM and Emerson kids and you've got a heavy north-of-tracks tilt - 94-57. Considering the population doesn't tilt that way, this SHOULD be highly suspicious to anyone with a couple brain cells to rub together. It doesn't even take into account the 74 "multiple schools" households who we don't know where they're coming from.

Almost 44% (131) of those who attended the forum are either school employees, have no school-aged children, or don't even live in Lakewood. Compare this to about 11% (34) having pre-school-aged children at home, who will be much more immediately and highly impacted by this decision than any of those 131.

I am horrified that this is being held up as a democratic process. Have they failed to notice that when we have a democratic process called an election, there's information available ahead of time and the polls are open for more than 2 hours??? Oh, and we can MAIL IN our ballots now too... where's the openness to inclusion of people who can't be out from 7-9pm on a work/school night??? That's about as democratic my left butt cheek.

[sharon kinsella]

Geez I thought that kind of stuff went out with the Tamany party.

I said at the beginning of this and I'll say it again, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it must be a duck.

A bunch of elitist, self-centered . . .

[Charlie Page]

I attended the Phase III forum a couple weeks ago. Our table reached consensus on keeping Lincoln open fairly quickly. One person in our group stated his main reason for keeping Lincoln is the greater potential for land re-use at Grant. I agree with him that the Grant land will have a higher potential for re-use but it wasn’t the reason I went with Lincoln. In fact, I considered the higher potential as a bonus as it didn’t enter into my decision making process.

During the presentation and also during quite a few of the Phase III meetings, we were shown a number of maps with circles and dots. I’m sure most are familiar with them. The circles are supposed to represent a three quarter mile radius and the dots represent families with children attending elementary school.

This map shows the current configuration. Grant’s circle overlaps 5 other elementary schools circles. It appears the overlap counts for at least 70% of Grant’s circle area.

current.JPG (35.52 KiB) Viewed 3397 times

This map shows what life would be like without Grant. The yellow zones are where the distance is greater than three quarters of a mile. The yellow zone with the red grid is where existing kids have greater than three quarter mile walk. I drew the red lines that split the yellow to show how a little extra walk (probably about a tenth of a mile north or south on a side street) could break up that area.

WithoutGrant.JPG (49.8 KiB) Viewed 3397 times

This map shows what life would be like without Lincoln. I tried to keep my red lines to scale with the previous map. The area north of the red line is where the kids would have to walk that would be in excess of the distance that Grant area kids would have. If these kids would have to walk to Grant, they’d have to cross Lake Road, Clifton highway, railroad tracks and Detroit Ave. I find this walk is excessive and more dangerous than what the Grant area would have. These kids shouldn't be subjected to this, regardless if it’s ‘more likely’ their parents have vehicles to transport them. In this area you are basically forcing the parents to drive their kids. I don’t think this is fair which is why I chose to keep Lincoln.

WithoutLincoln.JPG (46.68 KiB) Viewed 3397 times

Much has been said about the dots and housing / student density map. In the June 18 Phase III meeting at Lincoln (and I believe in subsequent meetings also), we were told it’s not good to count the dots because the dots move over time, which I agree. The dots that are there now were in a different place 10 years ago and will be in a different place in another 10 years. Housing / student density is another play on counting dots. If you wanted to get a more accurate number for student density, it should be students per square mile as the number of dwellings aren’t likely to be the same in each area. Either way you are still counting dots.

___________


Now for all you conspiracy theorists, please answer me this. If the Lincoln sector has as much pull with our school board as you think, why wasn’t Lincoln the first school to be renovated?

[Danielle Masters]

The fact is though that children that live in the center of town and live in lower income areas are less likely to have transportation. And the other fact is the housing is more dense in the center of town as there are more multiple dwelling houses therefore there will always be more children, that trend will likely change very little. I doubt any houses nearest to the lake will be turned into apartments. And the fact remains that if Grant close 120 students will be 3/4 mile or more away from a school and many of those student do not have access to vehicles where as if Lincoln closes currently 60 student would be 3/4 of a mile or more away from a school and it is highly doubtful that residents living in that area would lack access to a vehicle. Those facts will change a little over the years but they should remain about the same or if they change it will most likely be that more children move into the lower income multiple dwelling areas.

And why is it okay for kids to walk across tracks heading north? Why is it okay for the kids in the center of town to cross major streets? I suppose those kids don't matter.

Population density is larger in the center of town, that will not change, unless we decide to demolish the homes there are turn them into vacant malls...oh wait.

By the way the property that Grant lies on lies between homes. Nearly all the way up to Hilliard. The property is surrounded by homes on three sides, it sits BEHIND homes. In order for the land to be usable as anything other than a school those homes would have to be demolished. Grant elementary sits behind homes taking up nearly the entire block of both Victoria and Elmwood. We are talking about dozens of homes. Are we really saying we want development all the way from the partially up Elmwood to Hilliard? Do out current zoning laws even allow for a neighborhood block to become a development?

And lastly, we are talking about children not potential money. This should be about what is best for the children. What is best for the community. Not what is best for a few people.

[Danielle Masters]

One last comment from me tonight.

How can we sell Lakewood as a walkable community to families when if Grant closes we will not have a elementary school in the center of town? Not have a school in the area where the stores are, where the library is, where downtown is?

If we no longer have an elementary school between Athens and the railroad tracks, yes folks we would not have an elementary school from Athens to the railroad tracks. When this process started we had 4 elementary schools in that area but we would then have 3 schools in the north, three in the south and none in the center. Talk about a dividing line. And if that happens, if we lose one key part of our walkability then will cease to be a truly walkable city and with that Lakewood would lose it's soul.

[Kristine Pagsuyoin]

[quote][/quote]

This map shows what life would be like without Lincoln. I tried to keep my red lines to scale with the previous map. The area north of the red line is where the kids would have to walk that would be in excess of the distance that Grant area kids would have. If these kids would have to walk to Grant, they’d have to cross Lake Road, Clifton highway, railroad tracks and Detroit Ave. I find this walk is excessive and more dangerous than what the Grant area would have. These kids shouldn't be subjected to this, regardless if it’s ‘more likely’ their parents have vehicles to transport them. In this area you are basically forcing the parents to drive their kids. I don’t think this is fair which is why I chose to keep Lincoln.




Hi Charlie,

I think what is often most overlooked about this process, although we have tried really hard to remind the community, is that boundaries will be redrawn in our district after the BOE makes the decision on which school will be closed. The kids who live in the area you are referring to will not be necessarily re-routed to Grant Elementary, if it should stay open. Our district will look at the district as a whole and re-draw ALL of the boundary lines that will effect ALL schools & perhaps even including the middle schools.

OSFC wants our schools to be filled evenly around the district and we want that too so that we don't ever have to go to 5 schools in the future, thus requiring busing which would be very costly for our district. Emerson and Horace Mann are very large elementary schools since they were converted from middle schools. Either way, we will have kids who are required to go a longer distance to school and we will never really be able to "serve" the kids on the outer rim. Up to this point we haven't had to worry about busing because walkabiltiy has been so good in Lakewood, however, having more kids starting to walk further could send a red flag to the state. So, in our committee we have debated all along do we allow some kids to walk further than most (area you are referring), or is better that more kids have to walk further than they do now (Grant) since it isn't has far as the kids you are referring to in the North. Again, going from 7 to 6 schools will not allow for the walkabiltiy we have enjoyed in the past. Our committee did look at housing densities versus where the kids live. It was part of the decision to keep Roosevelt as part of the both Options presented to the community. The central part of our city is more dense and I don't think that will change much over the next 5 decades. Lastly, our committee was not charged to research economic development or housing development on either sites considered. We are asked not to consider this because a decision what be at least five years down the road.

Kristine Pagsuyoin
Phase III, Coordinating Council

[Jim O'Bryan]

Much has been said about the dots and housing / student density map. In the June 18 Phase III meeting at Lincoln (and I believe in subsequent meetings also), we were told it’s not good to count the dots because the dots move over time, which I agree. The dots that are there now were in a different place 10 years ago and will be in a different place in another 10 years. Housing / student density is another play on counting dots. If you wanted to get a more accurate number for student density, it should be students per square mile as the number of dwellings aren’t likely to be the same in each area. Either way you are still counting dots.

Charlie

I have stayed clear of Phase III meetings,and appreciate all that did take the time.

I would ask do the dots really move? Or do they more or less vibrate in certain areas?

On my street, it would seem that people stay a long time. I am able to watch a young
family move in, and it will grow and they graduate,and family stays on. But I am on
a street of large single family homes.

Meanwhile on the side streets are rentals,and they always seem to be filled with young
couples with children, that eventually buy and move out to be replaced by other young
families. So that while families move and dots move, they are replaced by more dots.
This would seem to be the norm in areas with lots of rentals, and to a lesser degree in
areas of single homes.

I am sure that if the dots were studied over 20 years we would see their movement
movement as a vibration. Especially south of Lake.

FWIW


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