Who Runs The Schools?

[Jim O'Bryan]

This entire thread is ridiculous.
First, as Mr. Markling suggested, this thread is misleading. No one is actually talking about who runs the schools. This is just talking about comments made by unnamed sources as to who runs the schools.

Thealexa

I would say the thread is not misleading, and is accomplishing something.
The discussion is legitimate, and so are some of the "quotes to unnamed
sources"

One of the great things of the process, has been uncovered though it would
seem there is a differences of belief. As Matt Markling's background in "school
law" and he practices in Ohio

Many residents believe that elected officials "work for them." Others will say
"if you don't vote don't complain." Well I am one of those wackos that think
in a democracy like America, you are always represented voting or not. However
I do not think elected officials WORK FOR ME, but it obvious that many do.
So how much sway does one person have over a school board member? How
do you rank it, friend?, campaign head?, family?, mayor? in this case, PTA?
who, or does anyone? Can one person change a rule? Does any of this have
sway over anyone else in a democracy?

So when we go back and sort through all of those very realistic "power" scenarios,
we are still left with a very real question, that I think was answered. How does the
"power structure" work? Who works for who, and who can say, "clean up that mess"?
All of these power structures are exactly the same for everything around? One
could just as easily ask "Who runs the Observer?" Earlier this year through a very
disjointed discussion(s) it was asking who runs the city? Mayor Edward FitzGerald
as well as others came it to speak of just how much power Lakewood's mayor has,
and in a government Lakewood's case is pretty amazing. The mayor at that time
said to paraphrase, "The buck stops with me." I would say this is one of many reasons
I believe that the mayor is doing a good job, in a very tough situation. Believe me, this
is very rare in 2009, all over the world.

With that can one rogue individual upset the apple cart? Is it even possible for one
rogue member? outsider? whatever disrupt the system?

As I am late for a meeting, I have to leave.

Can one question global warming, without having the cures or the answer?
Without it even existing? or With it about to kill off the planet?

A good investigative reporter could easily find out where the quote came from.

As for the schools, and school paper. Speaking specifically for myself. Give me a
break. Every two weeks, minimum, I am a selling it as hard as I can.

.

[Will Brown]

It is interesting that in a rather long thread discussing who controls our schools, no one thinks to mention the NEA, the largest, or at least one of the largest, lobbying organizations extant. Mr. Rice, who should certainly be familiar with the extent of this organization's influence, points the finger everywhere else, particularly at the state and federal governments. False modesty, Mr. Rice? When the state or federal legislatures consider a proposal regarding education, are they responsive to the individual voters, or to the lobbyists who can deliver the contributions and votes?

[Gary Rice]

Mr. Brown:

Sir, with respect, I would invite you to show, exactly, where I "point the finger" at anyone in this discussion. I believe that my points made here can clearly be corraborated, line by line, with fact upon fact.

As to your other mention of the NEA? Certainly I feel that that the National Education Association and their affilates indeed can be factors of influence in the schools and legislatures (but with legislatures indirectly, through the political action committee process, I believe) and, as you might surmise, it is my opinion that this is a very positive thing indeed, both for teachers and for students.

While the NEA certainly advocates for teachers, I feel utterly safe in my opinion that they would also state that they are advocates for the students, as well.

I would also feel that the NEA and their related associations are generally not "decision making" elements in the schools, whether with policy, curriculum, financial decisions, or with administrative actions. I feel that the primary extent of their influence rests with the collective bargaining process in seeking equitable salary and benefit packages, as well as with securing teachers' legal representation and insuring that due process is followed in grievance situations involving teachers.

In short, I feel that the NEA, and by extension, their local affiliations, are essentially RE-actors, rather than actors, regarding this "who runs the schools" discussion.

For that reason no, I did not mention them, because I do not believe that, as a rule, they are involved in "running" the schools at all.

All here, only my opinion, but I do think that opinion to be a valid one.

Back to the banjo...

[Thealexa Becker]

Jim,
I am not pointing the finger at you or anyone in particular. It was just a general comment.

Mr. Rice,
I have to disagree with you that the NEA advocates for students. They are a teacher's union. That means they work for the teacher's best interests. In 13 years of public school I have never once had the feeling that they were looking out for me. If that were true they would be an advocacy group and not a union. But to deter any future implication that they were out to get students, no they aren't, they just work solely for their clients, the union members.

[Gary Rice]

Thealexa,

While you are certainly correct that NEA and its affiliates do indeed advocate for teachers, there are many student scholarship programs extended through their various organizations.

As well, It would be my opinion based on a career in public education that there are many behind-the-scenes intangibles that are in play that improve the lives of students every day, through the work of the NEA and its affiliates.

I also feel the NEA to be a strong advocacy group for the improvement of education generally in our country, and would have to disagree with your thought that they are solely working for their clients. I think that if you did a bit of research about them, you might agree.

Back to the banjo...

[Thealexa Becker]

The NEA gives scholarships? Really? Because we never saw any of them. Maybe they existed, but no one told us about them, which in my mind is a great way to advocate for students.

I guess these behind the scene benefits are so intangible that we never benefitted from them. But Mr. Rice, if you are so insistent that they have helped students, then could you be more specific as to how? If they help so much, how come they don't make the students aware of their presence?

I will reiterate, the NEA is very helpful for teachers, but their goals and the interests of students don't line up as often as you think. Sometimes, they even clash.

[Gary Rice]

Thealexa:

There are many local affiliates of the NEA. Far too many to list the various scholarship opportunities or student supports that may be available through each association. In the association that I was affiliated with, for example, we had a Thanksgiving basket program for needy families.

As far as those behind-the scenes activities go, they would include addressing the achievement gaps in American Education, minority outreach, and in addressing education funding issues, along with addressing concerns with the NCLB law issues.

NEA Foundation supports the Read Across America program. NEA supports student journalism contests, as well as grant development programs along with many other activities too numerous historically to list here. A visit to the NEA website would be of assistance in discovering some of those other supports.

In securing better working conditions for teachers, by extension, it could be argued that overall quality of the schools can certainly improve, as well.

As far as working against student interests go? Sorry, that's just not what teachers are about.

Truthfully though, there are indeed times that advocacy questions can collide with vested interests in virtually any area of society.

But that's when you refer to old Ben Franklin and that quote about standing for something or falling for anything.

Back to the banjo...

[Thealexa Becker]

Mr Rice:

I would agree wholeheartedly with you if we were having a discussion about the NEA on a national level. This is about Lakewood schools however, and on that note you seem to attribute too much to the union.

Most of the things that you listed don't apply here in Lakewood. Take the journalism support for example. We got one card at the Times, at the very end of the year, congratulating us for winning awards at Kent State. Even our advisor, an NEA member, was surprised. That doesn't indicate vested support for journalism to me. Not to say that the card wasn't nice.

Again, you seem to be under the impression that I am saying the union is out to hurt students. I'm not. I'm just saying that in Lakewood, they are not as influential as you want to make them in the students lives. Unless of course you count making it difficult to fire ineffectual teachers, but that is a whole other nasty can of worms that can be argued by people who were actually affected by it, and all I will say is that if it is true, it doesn't improve the schools.

And relating this all back to the topic at hand, I think we can safely say that the NEA has no active part in running the Lakewood schools, at all.

I know in my experience, the best way to find out who runs the schools is to ask "where everything is referred to?"

Where does the buck stop for the day to day queries?

[Jim O'Bryan]

[quote="Thealexa Becker"

Where does the buck stop for the day to day queries?[/quote]


Thealexa

Why is it a stupid question when I ask it.

But when you ask it, it becomes valid?


peace

[Thealexa Becker]

Jim,

I never said the word "stupid" in my post, nor was a referring to you as stupid. I wish you would stop making it seem like I attack you every time I post a contrary opinion.

Your initial question was more ambiguous I think in order to get the conversation started. Mine is literally to whom is all the daily business referred to? They are slightly different in purpose I think.

[Gary Rice]

Thealexa,

I think that when we discuss the removal of ineffectual teachers, that is not at all a "can of worms", but rather a very important and open process, within the bounds of legal confidentiality, of course.

I seriously believe that no one wants a "bad" teacher to remain in the classroom.

At the same time...

One has to remember that there are two sides to every story, and that all Americans are entitled to constitutional guaranteed due process and to the presumption of innocence. A teachers' association's job is, in part, to be sure that any teacher charged with an offence receives a fair hearing on the matter with representation. That is their legal responsibility to do so, and this is a Federally recognized responsibility under collective bargaining agreements.

The purpose of hearings and investigations are to determine the facts. While these things can sometimes take time, the process seeks to be fair and reasonably transparent, and teachers are entitled to representation, as would be anyone else.

Teachers do lose their jobs, if just cause can be determined.

As a precautionary note, I would suggest that we refrain from mentioning any specific cases here.

If you will re-read my posts, I ascribed nothing, one way or the other, to the Lakewood Teachers' Association, and have not referred to them in any way. I would suggest that you contact their representative directly for further information relating to your question.

I would, however, be surprised indeed, if they have not facilitated some form of student support over the years.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jim,

I never said the word "stupid" in my post, nor was a referring to you as stupid. I wish you would stop making it seem like I attack you every time I post a contrary opinion.

Your initial question was more ambiguous I think in order to get the conversation started. Mine is literally to whom is all the daily business referred to? They are slightly different in purpose I think.

Thealexa

Sorry it is my style, er lack of style.

But it is a very fascinating discussion that erupted. So many sides, so many possibilities.
I have to agree with you, that the Union by nature will side with teachers. This is
what they do, and why they are paid memberships.

While I am sure Gary is correct with them doing many marvelous things for students
and student programs, I cannot see them siding with students in any dispute.

What I was wondering was much more mundane. Who cancels commercial art class(4 years ago) for example? Who stops 5th grade health class? Who cuts back on your journalism class? Who starts a program with Beck Center? Who decides hoe much
costs what? Who decides school boundary lines? Who really sets policy? and on and on.

Again please accept my policy, I just found it, like much of life, to be amusing.

peace


.

[Justine Cooper]

Gary,
I agree with much of what you are saying. And it is quite ironic that for a country that did not want a "national" school system, with NCLB that is essentially what we got. With the small percentage of federal funds that contributes to the schools, all schools must work to meet the NCLB guidelines in fear of losing that money, even though it doesn't come close to percentage of property taxes that pay for the schools. As for the unions, yes I believe they indirectly work for the students because they work directly for the teachers. Their goal was never to keep "bad" teachers but to ensure that teachers were given proper working conditions-which 100% affects the students. In the beginning of American schools, there were horrid conditions in the school buildings and for teachers, who were primarily female because they were hardly paid. Over the years this has changed because of teachers' unions. They have not only ensured safe and proper conditions for schools, but have lobbied at the state and federal levels for teachers AND students. To me they are the most important lobbying group. Do they run schools? no I don't believe they do. Do they keep "bad" teachers in schools? Well who hired the teachers? Not the unions. I do think there needs to be a process for teachers yearly to ensure they are effective teachers, but I don't blame the unions if they are not.

Jim,

Now you are getting to some questions that maybe you can answer. Who did stop health lessons at the fifth grade level and made the other decisions you referenced?
Do you think school boards are largely representative of the community they are in? In reference to race, culture, political affiliation? Why or why not?

I

[Bill Call]

..... As for the unions, yes I believe they indirectly work for the students because they work directly for the teachers. Their goal was never to keep "bad" teachers but to ensure that teachers were given proper working conditions-which 100% affects the students.

The teachers unions run the school system and they run the school system for the benefit of the teachers. The students, community and the educational process are not even on the list. The teachers unions have damaged the entire educational process. They realize that and they don't care. They might care if they paid attention to what their policies are doing to working conditions in the schools.

http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/resea ... o?id=10111

But then again maybe not...

[marklingm]

Now you are getting to some questions that maybe you can answer. Who did stop health lessons at the fifth grade level and made the other decisions you referenced?

Justine,

The buck stops with the Board, period. That is why it is so important for the Board to ensure the hiring of an excellent superintendent and treasurer. No excuses. As stated above:

As to the Schools, the current, five members of the Lakewood City School District Board of Education run the schools. We hired Dr. P. Joseph Madak as superintendent to oversee the educational aspects of our school district, and we have Rick Berdine as treasurer to oversee our financial aspects. Both Dr. Madak and Mr. Berdine serve the Lakewood City Schools well; however, in the end, the ultimate responsibility rests with the Board of Education itself.

http://lakewoodobserver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8100&start=0

Do you think school boards are largely representative of the community they are in? In reference to race, culture, political affiliation?

I think our current school board make-up is representative in many ways. For the Lakewood City School District Board of Education, I want fellow board members who are passionate about providing an excellent education for all of Lakewood's children, and are focused on that mission alone.

Matt