One lump or two? Tea anyone?

Bret Callentine · Post by **Bret Callentine** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:51 am

Just curious, anyone heading down to Mall C for the Cleveland Tea Party this afternoon?

Jim DeVito · Post by **Jim DeVito** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:44 am

Is it a bit odd that a "tea party" style protest needs to have sponsors?

http://clevelandteaparty.webs.com/sponsors.htm

As for as a protest of waistfull spending goes... Is this group against the war in Iraq? That seems like a pretty big waist. What does this "non-partisan" group consider waistful? Also Bret will you be bringing you video and posting the output someware?

Good Luck and have fun!!

Bret Callentine · Post by **Bret Callentine** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:00 am

Not sure what is odd about those sponsors. Perhaps you could clarify. Don't events usually have people that put it together or fund it?

What does this "non-partisan" group consider waistful?

Not sure about anyone else, but I at least start with things like this...

http://www.cagw.org/site/PageServer?pagename=reports_pigbook2009

Also Bret will you be bringing you video and posting the output someware?

Sorry, but I don't own a video camera. And I know next to nothing about how to post stuff like that on the internet.

Nope, I guess I'm just attending out of curiosity. Frustrated with the path of government spending (started under Bush), and interested to see if anyone at this event has any kind of a productive method to begin the process of reinstituting fiscal responsibility. (vegas odds - 40 : 1)

Jim DeVito · Post by **Jim DeVito** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:30 am

Bret, I am kind of pulling you chain. But as long as we are talking federal spending. Please click on the link below for a visual look at the 2009 budget.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5927 ... tlarge.jpg

I will just put out what I belove to be the biggest problem with government spending. Military Spending = $799 billion, NON-Military Spending = $383 billion.

Charlie Page · Post by **Charlie Page** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:01 pm

Here's another graph:

http://www.federalbudget.com/

The interest expense paid on the National Debt is the third largest expense in the federal budget. Only Defense and income redistribution (The Departments of Health and Human Services, HUD, and Agriculture (food stamps)) are higher.

ryan costa · Post by **ryan costa** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:55 pm

the "bailout" initiatives are a legacy of the Bush presidency.

The "Stimulus" spending pales in comparison to what we had in the 1950s. Conservatives love the 1950s.

Bret Callentine · Post by **Bret Callentine** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:32 am

Well, sorry to say, no pictures to share...

It was an interesting event. Dramatically peaceful crowd, with a fair to average mix of speakers. I'm terrible at estimating crowd sizes but I would conservatively say that there were 2,000 to 2,500 people there.

I think the biggest hurdle was the fact that they didn't seem to have a central goal in mind. There was no real push for group action, just continuted individual ascertiveness. It was suggested that we stay on top of our elected officials, but really it seems like this was just a starter group, testing the waters to see if something bigger, stronger and louder could be created and maintained.

I will be interested to see if some kind of a focused group comes from this that can provide legitimate political pressure.

Favorite Sign: "I'll pay my taxes when Congress pays theirs"

Favorite Comment Overheard in the crowd: "I bet Acorn is wondering where are the busses are that got everyone here."

Jim O'Bryan · Post by **Jim O'Bryan** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:50 am

Bret Callentine wrote:Just curious, anyone heading down to Mall C for the Cleveland Tea Party this afternoon?

Bret

I am kind of amazed that you would get caught up in "tea bagging." Besides the very distasteful to me at least other definitions of that, it is insane.

While proving just how morally bankrupt the right really is.

While I am having a hard time with many of the new president's policy adjustments, and feel he is keep us on the road to war the GWB had laid down. As has also followed GWB push to give banks anything they want. This movement borders on insane and really appeals to the lowest form of intellect.

But after 8 years of feeding the beast...

.

Bret Callentine · Post by **Bret Callentine** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:07 am

First and foremost, Jim, the ONLY ones calling it "Tea-bagging" are the left wing media who are trying to (with a third grade mentality) disparage the purpose behind the gathering. It's a Tea PARTY. And as many people mentioned on Wednesday, it is just as much a rally as it was a protest.

So, please stop referring to it with that terminology.

But after 8 years of feeding the beast...

yup, 8 years of feeding and growing the beast, and Obama first order of business after a campaign of "CHANGE"?.... Double down on more of the same.

Seems to me, the people who voted for him would be pretty pissed by the fact that he has yet to really waver from any policy initiated by Bush.

But above all else, I just keep thinking the same thing over and over again...

YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY
(ooops, oh well, you get the idea)

I don't understand how the same group that ridiculed Bush for telling us to go shopping after 9-11, thinks that the answer now is to, well, have the government go shopping for us.

This is insanity.

You were one of the ones who always said "follow the money". Well, where is this money coming from? And who is it going too? The answers aren't a good sign for the future of the nation.

Jim DeVito · Post by **Jim DeVito** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:29 am

Bret Callentine wrote:YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
YOU CAN'T SPEND YOUR WAY OUT OF DEBT
ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY
(ooops, oh well, you get the idea)

To be fair you also can't NOT tax your way out. Correct me if I am wrong but weren't they protesting a tax rate that is lower under obama? If anything we need higher taxes to get out of this mess and then crazy tax reform to keep us from getting there in the future. But to your point how come nobody had a tea party against government spending when bush and pals decided to spend billions a week in Iraq?

On a side note...

Favorite Sign: "I'll pay my taxes when Congress pays theirs"

I bet that guy/gal paid there taxes this year. Unless they did not... then they have the right to hold that sign.

Bret Callentine · Post by **Bret Callentine** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:52 am

Correct me if I am wrong but weren't they protesting a tax rate that is lower under obama?

As far as I could tell, and remember, I'm not one of the organizers, I'm just a guy who showed up out of curiosity, they were protesting not necessarily the income tax rates, but the growing use of other taxation methods. Increased cigarette taxes, gas taxes, etc. The other big point of contention is the level of government spending. And yes, just about EVERY speaker who took the microphone pointed out that these policies STARTED under the Bush regime.

So, yes, no one had tea party when Bush was in office, but then, when's the last time you ever saw a rally full of conservatives turn out to push an agenda and not just a candidate?

Now I'm really curious. I'm not sure why there is so much disgust coming from the left. Is it the message? The timing? Or the methods? Or is it just that the level of mistrust between the two sides is so longstanding that it's really lost any functional relativity. Like the Hatfields and McCoys, Liberals and Conservatives don't really remember what their fighting about, they just know that they hate the other side.

Would it shock you to hear that one of the peolpe I talked to suggested that all he wanted was a flat tax system that put an end to the loopholes the rich deliberately create in order to exploit? Is that something that a Liberal is against?

I bet that guy/gal paid there taxes this year. Unless they did not... then they have the right to hold that sign.

No, actually, I'm pretty sure that the right to free speech covers sarcasm too.

Bret Callentine · Post by **Bret Callentine** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:00 am

Oh, and for the record. Since I'm the one who started throwing around the generalities (I really need to stop doing that).

As an Independent, I consider myself a Fiscal Conservative, a Social Liberal, and a Governmental Libertarian.

Jim DeVito · Post by **Jim DeVito** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:18 am

Bret Callentine wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but weren't they protesting a tax rate that is lower under obama?

As far as I could tell, and remember, I'm not one of the organizers, I'm just a guy who showed up out of curiosity, they were protesting not necessarily the income tax rates, but the growing use of other taxation methods. Increased cigarette taxes, gas taxes, etc. The other big point of contention is the level of government spending. And yes, just about EVERY speaker who took the microphone pointed out that these policies STARTED under the Bush regime.

So, yes, no one had tea party when Bush was in office, but then, when's the last time you ever saw a rally full of conservatives turn out to push an agenda and not just a candidate?

Now I'm really curious. I'm not sure why there is so much disgust coming from the left. Is it the message? The timing? Or the methods? Or is it just that the level of mistrust between the two sides is so longstanding that it's really lost any functional relativity. Like the Hatfields and McCoys, Liberals and Conservatives don't really remember what their fighting about, they just know that they hate the other side.

Would it shock you to hear that one of the peolpe I talked to suggested that all he wanted was a flat tax system that put an end to the loopholes the rich deliberately create in order to exploit? Is that something that a Liberal is against?

I bet that guy/gal paid there taxes this year. Unless they did not... then they have the right to hold that sign.

No, actually, I'm pretty sure that the right to free speech covers sarcasm too.

Bret, all of the points you make are very good. Thanks for clearing up the questions I posed. And yes I agree that we have had so many years of hate and mistrust that it will take a while to patch thing back up.

No as far as the right to free speech covering sarcasm. You got it. It does and that is wonderful. My only point is that if they want there statements to have any real meaning they need to practice what they preach.

Brian Pedaci · Post by **Brian Pedaci** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:05 pm

I think these rallies suffered from the same ailment that many left-wing protests do - lack of focus. It's not uncommon to go to an anti-war rally and see people holding signs up for legalizing pot. The original tea party was a direct action, involving a particular product which had just had an unfair tax placed upon it. I'll wager not a one of the protesters at the Mall paid a higher marginal rate this year than they did last year. Nor will they next year.

Protesting the nature of government to solve problems by throwing unimaginable amounts of cash at it, at a time when we're already facing the highest deficits of all time, is a noble cause. I saw one too many Obama=Hitler to give it my full-throated support, though.

The problem is that many of these people aren't protesting a reality -- they are protesting against a phantom socialist-fascist-communist-muslim-racist fantasy propagated by talk radio, bloggers, Fox News and others. In order to make this a real political movement, it needs a clear agenda, positive goals, and leaders - none of which it currently has. Some on the left have made the mistake of thinking the idea was fomented by moneyed conservative interests when in reality it was simply co-opted by those interests because they saw an opportunity.

If these rallies continue to be primarily about how Obama is the Devil and the Democrats the Horsemen of the Apocalypse, they're going to continue to be treated with the same level of respect as NORML and Lyndon LaRouche. Dial back the crazy next time, and focus on the practical, and there might just be some Democrats who join the cause too.

ryan costa · Post by **ryan costa** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:47 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thom-hart ... 87189.html

Thom Hartmann claims our original Boston Tea Party was to resist the chartered monopoly of the British East India Tea Company.

What it means I don't rightly know.

I'd prefer our protesters had met at the site of the future new "med mart". The "mall" area of downtown. Maybe gone on to dump some Halliburton equipment in lake erie.

One lump or two? Tea anyone?

One lump or two? Tea anyone?

okay

Re: One lump or two? Tea anyone?

tea