Chickens Coming To Lakewood? Maybe Other Critters Too...

The jumping off discussion area for the rest of the Deck. All things Lakewood.
Please check out our other sections. As we refile many discussions from the past into
their proper sections please check them out and offer suggestions.

Moderator: Jim O'Bryan

Steve Hoffert
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:37 pm
Location: Lakewood Ohio

Post by Steve Hoffert »

Christopher Bindel wrote:Besides raccoons, rats, snakes, and Gary's mention of the dogs, what about all the stray cats in Lakewood. Now I've never owned cats and do not know much about their specific diets but I know that all cats a carnivores and seeing/hearing/smelling a chicken in someone’s back yard would probably just be too good to pass up. And I don’t know about all of Lakewood but I know in my neighborhood, and many of my friends’, there is defiantly a problem with lots of stray cats.

This is not a comment so much worrying about an influx of even more cats, more than another potential problem for those waning to keep them. I personally don't have anything against this ordinance, however I do appreciate Gary bringing forward the possible problem of rat proliferation. I hope this is something that is addressed in the committee meetings and forums when discussing this possible ordinance.


After raising chickens for 7 years and being around them for over 20:

1. None of my birds have ever had mites.
2. Rats were not a problem but opossums were. Two chicks were killed by these animals and I trapped 5 of them and they were quickly dispatched.
3. Research shows that birds with adequate living space and a healthy diet are highly resistant to disease unlike factory farms where a single sick bird can devastate the entire population. My birds have never been visibly ill. Besides the birds would have to be checked for certain diseases anyway if they are shown.
4. In 7 years only 5 birds died in my coop and run. 2 were eaten by an opossum, 1 hung itself, 1 was stepped on by an excited child and 1 became trapped between a fence and died of heat stroke.
5. I have never seen rats in or around the coops or runs. I did see a rat running down riverside drive a few months back and I see them near the Lake all the time. Having grown up close to water and and working in the wastewater industry, you realize that there are many of these animals around and a few chickens are not going to amount to anything with the amount of waste people produce.
6. Cats do eye the birds but they have not gone after any of the mature chickens.
7. You put the birds away at dusk every night anyhow. They are secure in the coop and they roost until dawn so the predator issue is a mute point.
8. Dogs? They're not allowed off the leash anyhow and the chicken are in a fenced run. My birds used to lay net to my dog in the sun.

I also believe Grace is right. Most people won't go through the trouble to raise chickens because it requires some work so the number of these birds would be relatively small and easy to manage.
User avatar
Jim O'Bryan
Posts: 14196
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
Location: Lakewood
Contact:

Post by Jim O'Bryan »

Steve Hoffert wrote:I also believe Grace is right. Most people won't go through the trouble to raise chickens because it requires some work so the number of these birds would be relatively small and easy to manage.


Steve

I do not have all the facts in front of me, but one would have wonder how long have they been illegal? I think I can remember people having them in the 70s, and I remember someone on Rockway having them and carrier pigeons in the 80s. If so how did they become illegal to own, and why? I cannot think of anything from then to now which has changed drastically.

The Cleveland legislation was pretty nice, and I was able to attend some of the meetings, as I was working with Joe Cimperman on a project. I will look for my fact sheets, but some that stand out were, $6 million in eggs bought yearly by Clevelanders, this could be a savings or even a gain, as chicken owners would be able to sell their eggs at local stores. That the average house would only be allowed 6 chickens based on yard size. They had also figured that with the cost of license, and actual time needed to check, there would be another net gain for the city.

I saw it as more of an economic development issue. More and more young families are pushing for green, and green healthy living. When you put the facts that these are the healthiest chickens in the country, centrally more healthy then thos on farms and mega farms, it begins to make more sense. I do not see Lakewood fighting with Westlake and Bay for residents, that is a different experience. However in the coming years we will be fighting with Cleveland for the young families, that will become our lifeblood. It would seem like council and the mayor have decided to move Lakewood from a senior town to a young urban professional town, and this would fit in with that perfectly.

.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Gary Rice
Posts: 1651
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:59 pm
Location: Lakewood

Post by Gary Rice »

No doubt about it. Well cared-for animals really do help us all to better understand the world beyond our doors. They teach us kindness, toleration, and give us sublime understanding of the symbiotic relationships that comprise life on this planet.

As for pigeons, as you tootle around Lakewood, occasionally you will see little doorways in attic lofts where homing pigeons were once lovingly maintained. And then, as now, homing pigeons continue to be an exciting, and at times, vital part of the communications world.

Did you know, by the way, the story that pigeons and sparrrows cannot seem to live apart from humans? Pigeons were bred in Ancient Egypt, and they've loved us ever since. Sparrows too, don't seek the woodlands. They want to be near us. That may be because they are not native to this country, being like the starling; of English origin.

Like it or not, we will always have birds around us. You can't legislate them away. Rats too, I suppose, and all the rest. You can simply try to manage the biomes involved, by responsible ecological behaviors.

The only thought that I wanted to express here is that due caution needs to be expressed before we start a bevy of domesticated outdoor animals around here.

As we all are aware, and as Holy Scripture enjoins, we are all a little lower than the angels...and that's the problem. All too often the issue of abused and neglected animals comes forth.

You can't legislate that away either, unfortunately. :roll:
Valerie Molinski
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:09 am

Post by Valerie Molinski »

http://www.portlandtribune.com/sustainable/story.php?story_id=123429037473569000


Urban chickens top green pecking order
Chickens beat dogs in sustainability, make locally produced food


[quote]Portland code allows city residents to keep up to three chickens without needing a permit. No roosters – with their morning wake-up calls – are allowed. But hens produce eggs without roosters.


Nardelli says he can “free-rangeâ€
User avatar
Jim O'Bryan
Posts: 14196
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
Location: Lakewood
Contact:

Post by Jim O'Bryan »

[quote="Valerie Molinski"]http://www.portlandtribune.com/sustainable/story.php?story_id=123429037473569000


Urban chickens top green pecking order
Chickens beat dogs in sustainability, make locally produced food


[quote]Portland code allows city residents to keep up to three chickens without needing a permit. No roosters – with their morning wake-up calls – are allowed. But hens produce eggs without roosters.


Nardelli says he can “free-rangeâ€
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Gary Rice
Posts: 1651
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:59 pm
Location: Lakewood

Post by Gary Rice »

On the surface, those chickens sounded like a good, fun, and trendy thing to think about, did they not? :D

If chickens could be raised in diapers, and their feed being up off the ground, and kept away from field mice, rats and vermin.... :roll:

If you could politely ask area dogs, foxes, raccoons, skunks, possums, and of course, our friendly neighborhood hawks to simply mind their own business... :roll:

(of course, that seems increasingly difficult to do, since the incredible build-out and deforestation occurred in the '80's and '90's, of this area's western biomes)

If you could also figure out how to keep your chickens away from the avian flu epidemic that some scientists claim is soon to sweep across the globe as quickly as our economic crisis... :roll:

Then, perhaps, chickens will come to Lakewood. 8)

That should be about as soon... as the flying pigs arrive. :)
Valerie Molinski
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:09 am

Post by Valerie Molinski »

Gary Rice wrote:On the surface, those chickens sounded like a good, fun, and trendy thing to think about, did they not? :D

If chickens could be raised in diapers, and their feed being up off the ground, and kept away from field mice, rats and vermin.... :roll:

If you could politely ask area dogs, foxes, raccoons, skunks, possums, and of course, our friendly neighborhood hawks to simply mind their own business... :roll:

(of course, that seems increasingly difficult to do, since the incredible build-out and deforestation occurred in the '80's and '90's, of this area's western biomes)

If you could also figure out how to keep your chickens away from the avian flu epidemic that some scientists claim is soon to sweep across the globe as quickly as our economic crisis... :roll:

Then, perhaps, chickens will come to Lakewood. 8)

That should be about as soon... as the flying pigs arrive. :)


Gary, honestly, did you read any of the links/articles I posted? All of your issues that you keep harping on have been solved or mitigated in many muncipalities. All it takes is a permit and inspection of how and where you are keeping your chickens. That could even be a decent money raiser for the the city. Permit costs each year to keep chickens- 25 to 50$? Inspection of your coop that must be built to spec? Another 25 to 50.

Seriously, I've lived in a city that allowed chickens. No one had any of the issues you speak of. And they were just as urban as Lakewood with the same predators around as well- hawks, racoons, norweigan rats. No one I know came down with Avian flu either.

This is what stunts this area constantly. Fear of unknown, always looking at the worst case scenario, unwilling to entertain ideas from the outside that are weird and would 'never work in Lakewood.' Lakewood is not as unique as everyone seems to think it is in many respects. I'm sad that this prospect was killed even before it was fully fleshed out. Ridiculous.
Gary Rice
Posts: 1651
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:59 pm
Location: Lakewood

Post by Gary Rice »

Valerie,

Sorry to feel the need to disagree with you.

No fear fro me, just farmer's facts...

As you allude though, the problems can be mitigated...

I guess that I simply do not have a lot of faith in the ability of government regulations anymore to make everything right. :shock:

It would be nice if they were able to but...

As for you and I? We will simply have to respectfully disagree. :D
User avatar
Jim O'Bryan
Posts: 14196
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
Location: Lakewood
Contact:

Post by Jim O'Bryan »

Valerie Molinski wrote:This is what stunts this area constantly. Fear of unknown, always looking at the worst case scenario, unwilling to entertain ideas from the outside that are weird and would 'never work in Lakewood.' Lakewood is not as unique as everyone seems to think it is in many respects. I'm sad that this prospect was killed even before it was fully fleshed out. Ridiculous.


Valerie

Coffee, lunch, dinner and more on me.

Bless you.

Every fear presented at council was the fear of the truth, nothing more.

Chickens raised like this are some of the healthiest chickens in the world. Avian flu excists in the megafarms, not the backyard farms.

We buy chicken that can kill, we do not raise chickens that can kill.

The director of the Lakewood Library once taught me, ignorance kills, ideas, knowledge and discussion can only grow.

Damn, that seems like a lifetime ago.

Thanks for the links, the post and the glimpse of truth in the light of day.

.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Valerie Molinski
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:09 am

Post by Valerie Molinski »

Jim:

I posted all of that here because I know we have some council members lurking here on the Deck and I really had hoped they would read those links and stories.

Guess not.
Gary Rice
Posts: 1651
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:59 pm
Location: Lakewood

Post by Gary Rice »

Ah the future of Lakewood...

Perhaps a new parodic verse will one day be added to that old sea island song?

Chickens clucking here? Squawk with us.
Chickens clucking here? Squawk with us.
Chickens clucking here? Squawk with us.
Oh chickens, squawk with us...

Jim? Valerie? It's not that we can't eat lunch together...

It's what we decide to eat. :D

As was once stated to me long ago.

The problem is not so much that the lion can't lie down with the lamb,
...but that only one of them gets back up.
:shock:
Valerie Molinski
Posts: 604
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:09 am

Post by Valerie Molinski »

Gary Rice wrote:Jim? Valerie? It's not that we can't eat lunch together...

It's what we decide to eat. :D

As was once stated to me long ago.


Well, I am completely off meat until easter, so chickens and lambs are safe around me until then. :)
Christopher Bindel
Posts: 277
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 2:57 pm
Location: Delaware by Lakeland, Lakewood
Contact:

Post by Christopher Bindel »

Jim,

To your earlier post about the possibility of some other issues between council members perhaps getting in the way of this passing I do not think this is the case. I was at the council meeting last night and they said that everyone on the Housing Committee voted against it. I got the distinct feeling from the way that they spoke about it that it was not voted down because of the idea but because of the wording of the ordinance. It also seemed liked they all were expecting to see the subject reappear and hopefully that it would pass next time around.

Now as I said, this isn’t by any means something I “know,â€
User avatar
Jim O'Bryan
Posts: 14196
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
Location: Lakewood
Contact:

Post by Jim O'Bryan »

[quote="Christopher Bindel"]Now as I said, this isn’t by any means something I “know,â€
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
User avatar
Jim O'Bryan
Posts: 14196
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
Location: Lakewood
Contact:

Post by Jim O'Bryan »

[quote="Christopher Bindel"]Now as I said, this isn’t by any means something I “know,â€
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident

"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg

"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Post Reply