Obamanomics.. The truth!!!!!

Open and general public discussions about things outside of Lakewood.

Moderator: Jim O'Bryan

ryan costa
Posts: 2486
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:31 pm

ok

Post by ryan costa »

Jim DeVito wrote:
Stephen Eisel wrote:
Most of you want even be hit by Obama's tax raises. more than likely you were hit by Reagan raising the ultra regressive social security tax. Are any of you making over 200,000 a year? are you making over 200,000 a year, Steve?
Nice... So, as long as it does not impact you then it is ok... Punish the people that are more successful than you... I smell a Marxist.


The repub filp of that quote.
Nice... So, as long as it does not impact you then it is ok... Punish the people who are less successful than you... I smell an a@@


did you mean 'more successful'?

Progressive income taxes aren't Marxist. We borrow money from the China(still nominally Marxist) to fund the reaganomics deficits.

The price of modernity is progressive income taxes. eisenhower wasn't a marxist. Ford wasn't a Marxist. Nixon wasn't a marxist. Progressive income taxes aren't Marxist. Modernity is expensive: some people can afford to pay more than others.

if you want to go back to the days of low income taxes you're going to have to go back to most of the conditions of low income taxes. tariffs. no real interstate highways. a much smaller military. No NASA. much less high tech police and firefighting. at least 20 percent of the population living on modest farms. The Homestead Act. Civil Servants and military enlistees making much less money.

As it is, our byzantine tax structure enables the modern sophistication of accounting and tax law. CPAs and tax lawyers would have little or no value otherwise. Is there anything more 'productive' they could be doing with their knowledge? and there go all their support staffs and I.T. providers.
"Is this flummery” — Archie Goodwin
Stephen Eisel
Posts: 3281
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm

Post by Stephen Eisel »

then there's the biggest gorilla in the room: Bush-Cheney's years of drunk sailor style spending. Returning to traditional american progressive income taxes will make a small dent in the massive debt he and his father and reagan ran up. You can all nitpick which programs to cut once traditional progressive income taxes are restored.
Yep, the national debt went up 189% during Regan's 8 years and 63% during Bush's 8 years. We won the cold war thanks to Ron and Al Qaeda is now on the ropes thanks to Bush.. During the Carter and Clinton admins the National Debt only went up by 42% and 36%... Clinton was the beneficiary of the first internet boom but nearly castrated our military. He also did not spend a dime to stop terrorism so Bush had to pick up that tab. Carter gave us 28% interest rates and nearly cost us the Cold War...
Stephen Eisel
Posts: 3281
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm

Post by Stephen Eisel »

if we are all created equally then we should all be taxed equally... :wink: hate the game not the playa :lol:
Stephen Eisel
Posts: 3281
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm

Post by Stephen Eisel »

Jim DeVito wrote:
Stephen Eisel wrote:
Most of you want even be hit by Obama's tax raises. more than likely you were hit by Reagan raising the ultra regressive social security tax. Are any of you making over 200,000 a year? are you making over 200,000 a year, Steve?
Nice... So, as long as it does not impact you then it is ok... Punish the people that are more successful than you... I smell a Marxist.


The repub filp of that quote.
Nice... So, as long as it does not impact you then it is ok... Punish the people who are less successful than you... I smell an a@@
Why should people who make over $200k be penalized more than some one making $50k or a $100k?
Steve Hoffert
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:37 pm
Location: Lakewood Ohio

Post by Steve Hoffert »

Stephen Eisel wrote:Why should people who make over $200k be penalized more than some one making $50k or a $100k?


The bottom line is the divide between necessity and luxury. At lower income levels most after tax money is used for food, shelter, education etc. There is a base income level where you can provide just those things to survive. As income increases you can provide some comforts to your family. As income increases beyond that you no longer need anything and additional income is spent on luxury.

For the last 28 years it's ok to believe that somehow watering the top echelon of society translates into money "trickling down" to those less fortunate, instead of watering the roots and letting it percolate back up.

The connection made between incremental tax and Marxism is incorrect because the class structure remains intact.

The same person making $100,000 will pay more in taxes if they are fortunate enough to make $200,000 and those whose incomes drop below the $200,000 level will pay less tax.

This merely helps to insure that lower income people have the potential to meet their basic needs.
Stephen Eisel
Posts: 3281
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm

Post by Stephen Eisel »

Steve Hoffert wrote:
Stephen Eisel wrote:Why should people who make over $200k be penalized more than some one making $50k or a $100k?


The bottom line is the divide between necessity and luxury. At lower income levels most after tax money is used for food, shelter, education etc. There is a base income level where you can provide just those things to survive. As income increases you can provide some comforts to your family. As income increases beyond that you no longer need anything and additional income is spent on luxury.

For the last 28 years it's ok to believe that somehow watering the top echelon of society translates into money "trickling down" to those less fortunate, instead of watering the roots and letting it percolate back up.

The connection made between incremental tax and Marxism is incorrect because the class structure remains intact.

The same person making $100,000 will pay more in taxes if they are fortunate enough to make $200,000 and those whose incomes drop below the $200,000 level will pay less tax.

This merely helps to insure that lower income people have the potential to meet their basic needs.
Do baisc needs include cable, big screen TV's, stereo, cell phones and $200 tennis shoes? A portion of the poor or lower income people in this country live like kings compared to their counterparts in India, China and Africa.. Your logic on why people making over $200k should help the poor is troubling. If it is that important then everyone should share the burden equally. It is always easier to talk a good game when you put the burden on some one elses shoulders.
Steve Hoffert
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:37 pm
Location: Lakewood Ohio

Post by Steve Hoffert »

Stephen Eisel wrote:Do baisc needs include cable, big screen TV's, stereo, cell phones and $200 tennis shoes? A portion of the poor or lower income people in this country live like kings compared to their counterparts in India, China and Africa.. Your logic on why people making over $200k should help the poor is troubling. If it is that important then everyone should share the burden equally. It is always easier to talk a good game when you put the burden on some one elses shoulders.


The operate word here is a portion. So by your "logic" because certain people abuse the system all those in that income category should suffer. The "burden" you speak of is on who's shoulders? If all people pay the same tax rate up to $50,000, and all those making $50,000-100,000 pay the same tax rate on that portion and all those making $100,000-$200,000 are paying the same tax on that portion and so on, it's equitable because anybody in each income tax bracket pays the same.

You make it sound as if by reaching that magic number of $250,000 your income is actually lower than if you made $249,000 which is not the case.

Are you a flat tax proponent for the elimination of all deductions?
Jeff Endress
Posts: 858
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:13 am
Location: Lakewood

Post by Jeff Endress »

Didn't Gov. Pallin "take on big Oil" raising the amount the state recieved from their drilling and sales? And wasn't that money used to ease the tax burden of the Alaskan citizens?

I mean, in Alaska, didn't she raise the taxes on the oil companies and pass those funds down to those who didn't earn as much?

But maybe I misunderstood. Cause if I heard it right, it sounds remarkably like SOCIALISM!! :shock:

Jeff
To wander this country and this world looking for the best barbecue â€â€
Stephen Eisel
Posts: 3281
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm

Post by Stephen Eisel »

Are you a flat tax proponent for the elimination of all deductions?
yes!
Steve Hoffert
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:37 pm
Location: Lakewood Ohio

Post by Steve Hoffert »

Stephen Eisel wrote:
Are you a flat tax proponent for the elimination of all deductions?
yes!


That's good because I am as well. The tax system currently benefits specific wealthy individuals with certain loopholes and until they eliminate those I will be a proponent for what I previously stated.
ryan costa
Posts: 2486
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:31 pm

ok

Post by ryan costa »

Stephen Eisel wrote:
then there's the biggest gorilla in the room: Bush-Cheney's years of drunk sailor style spending. Returning to traditional american progressive income taxes will make a small dent in the massive debt he and his father and reagan ran up. You can all nitpick which programs to cut once traditional progressive income taxes are restored.
Yep, the national debt went up 189% during Regan's 8 years and 63% during Bush's 8 years. We won the cold war thanks to Ron and Al Qaeda is now on the ropes thanks to Bush.. During the Carter and Clinton admins the National Debt only went up by 42% and 36%... Clinton was the beneficiary of the first internet boom but nearly castrated our military. He also did not spend a dime to stop terrorism so Bush had to pick up that tab. Carter gave us 28% interest rates and nearly cost us the Cold War...


the federal reserve and the free market gave us 28 percent interest rates. Reagan and Greenspan struck upon the idea that the Fed could perpetually lower the interest rates. and that we could perpetually borrow enormous quantities of money from europe and japan(and later China) at extremely low interest rates. that was quite an innovation. (i've heard it is how donald trump stays in business)

Clinton didn't do much to the military. It was nearly the same size at the end of his presidency as at the beginning, which is no small feat considering the cold war was over and the first Gulf War was already over before he took office. Military deterrence could not have prevented 9/11: the terrorists were from our allies, and they attacked using nothing our military guards against.

When terrorists killed 241 American servicemen in Beirut in 1983 Reagan and his government did not invade and occupy Lebanon. A few retaliatory strikes took place, maybe a few secret clandestine missions. but no invasion and occupation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beiru ... ks_bombing

I suspect this is because most Americans didn't have cable television news back then. So the number of Americans who were giant tools was much lower.

The historical evidence is that Americas GDP growth was much higher during periods of higher progressive income taxes, corporate taxes, and corporate gains taxes. household personal savings rates were also higher, for the rich and the poor. Corporate investment rates of revenue in capital was also at a higher rate. it was also much higher during the high tariff years. That is another reason why todays republicans and neo-cons campaign on lies and lying slogans. Maybe "lies" is too harsh a word. They campaign on scores of "C-" and "F" in history.

Reagan's military buildup didn't cause the Soviet Collapse. Most Soviet Leaders and citizens were not unintelligent. They knew how much the Soviet Union sucked. But there was no career security in dissidence. There was little career advancement in dissidence. The career opportunities were in patriotism and opposing America. The Soviet Union was not bound by fiscal realities or accounting realities: as a command economy they had no fiscal limitations. They may have had enormous inefficiency, but they had no fiscal limitations. They could have kept going indefinitely. They gave up when they realized there probably wouldn't be a war with America anyways. They had even had overlapping interests with the U.S. in helping saddam hussein counter Iran. At the same time the U.S. was supplying the taliban freedom fighters with weapons against the U.S.S.R. Yet in personal meetings Reagan was conciliatory with the Soviets.

Reagans training and experience as a hollywood star prepared him for stepping into the spotlight with good soundbytes when opportunities were there.

in the 80s the Soviets were hung up in Afghanistan. Today America is hung up in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is pretty expensive.

Also, Al Queda isn't on the run. folks from all over west asia are clamoring to the fight. just like frontiersmen raced to the Alamo when Mexico tried to keep Texas. its what many red blooded men are into.
"Is this flummery” — Archie Goodwin
Stephen Eisel
Posts: 3281
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm

Post by Stephen Eisel »

Jeff Endress wrote:Didn't Gov. Pallin "take on big Oil" raising the amount the state recieved from their drilling and sales? And wasn't that money used to ease the tax burden of the Alaskan citizens?

I mean, in Alaska, didn't she raise the taxes on the oil companies and pass those funds down to those who didn't earn as much?

But maybe I misunderstood. Cause if I heard it right, it sounds remarkably like SOCIALISM!! :shock:

Jeff
It is a dividen check from royalties.. just a little bit different :wink:
Stephen Eisel
Posts: 3281
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm

Post by Stephen Eisel »

ryan costa
Posts: 2486
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:31 pm

Post by ryan costa »

Stephen Eisel wrote:
Jeff Endress wrote:Didn't Gov. Pallin "take on big Oil" raising the amount the state recieved from their drilling and sales? And wasn't that money used to ease the tax burden of the Alaskan citizens?

I mean, in Alaska, didn't she raise the taxes on the oil companies and pass those funds down to those who didn't earn as much?

But maybe I misunderstood. Cause if I heard it right, it sounds remarkably like SOCIALISM!! :shock:

Jeff
It is a dividen check from royalties.. just a little bit different :wink:


There are both Alaskan Royalties and Alaskan Taxes on oil from Alaska. both are quite high, and both are "spread around" to Alaskans.
"Is this flummery” — Archie Goodwin
Stephen Eisel
Posts: 3281
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm

Post by Stephen Eisel »

Who owns the oil??
Post Reply