It has occured to me...

[Jim O'Bryan]

But the facts are, Bush inherited a surplus

BS.. Try thinking for yourself once in a while..

Fiscal
Year Year
Ending National Debt Deficit
FY1993 09/30/1993 $4.411488 trillion
FY1994 09/30/1994 $4.692749 trillion $281.26 billion
FY1995 09/29/1995 $4.973982 trillion $281.23 billion
FY1996 09/30/1996 $5.224810 trillion $250.83 billion
FY1997 09/30/1997 $5.413146 trillion $188.34 billion
FY1998 09/30/1998 $5.526193 trillion $113.05 billion
FY1999 09/30/1999 $5.656270 trillion $130.08 billion
FY2000 09/29/2000 $5.674178 trillion $17.91 billion
FY2001 09/28/2001 $5.807463 trillion $133.29 billion

Look at your numbers, deficit down by $260+ trillion. Bush was handed a surplus which he began to squander immediately. Go back and look at everything that was gutted and perverted in the build up to war.

I am thinking, and reading, and doing the math.

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[Bret Callentine]

You do understand the difference between having a plan, and simply stating before being elected that you want to attack Iraq?

I certainly understand the difference between having a plan and just stating before being elected that you want "change".

[Jim O'Bryan]

You do understand the difference between having a plan, and simply stating before being elected that you want to attack Iraq?

I certainly understand the difference between having a plan and just stating before being elected that you want "change".

OK Brett, do you understand the difference between change, and attacking a country that has never attacked us or hurt American citizens?

I do not understand what is so hard to figure on this. Members of the senate went into detail about GWB overthrowing 200 years of proud history of never attacking a country without provocation.


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[Bret Callentine]

Afghanistan is either a sovereign country, and therefor should be held responsible for the actions of those organizations living within their boundaries, or then you could make the argument that we didn't attack Afghanistan, rather, we invaded the country of Al Quida.

If a fanatical group built up a large following in the United States, armed itself and began terrorist operations outside of the country, I would expect the Government to do something, and if they didn't, or couldn't, then I would not expect other countries to sit on their hands and say, "well, America didn't attack us, so I guess there is nothing we can do."

[Stephen Eisel]

Look at your numbers, deficit down by $260+ trillion. Bush was handed a surplus which he began to squander immediately. Go back and look at everything that was gutted and perverted in the build up to war.

I am thinking, and reading, and doing the math.

billion not trillion..

http://www.letxa.com/articles/16

Time and time again, anyone reading the mainstream news or reading articles on the Internet will read the claim that President Clinton not only balanced the budget, but had a surplus. This is then used as an argument to further highlight the fiscal irresponsibility of the federal government under the Bush administration.

The claim is generally made that Clinton had a surplus of $69 billion in FY1998, $123 billion in FY1999 and $230 billion in FY2000 . In that same link, Clinton claimed that the national debt had been reduced by $360 billion in the last three years, presumably FY1998, FY1999, and FY2000--though, interestingly, $360 billion is not the sum of the alleged surpluses of the three years in question ($69B + $123B + $230B = $422B, not $360B).

While not defending the increase of the federal debt under President Bush, it is aggravating seeing Clinton's record promoted as having generated a surplus. It never happened. There was never a surplus and the cold hard facts support that position. In fact, far from a $360 billion reduction in the national debt in FY1998-FY2000, there was an increase of $281 billion.

Verifying this is as simple as accessing the U.S. Treasury website where the national debt is updated daily and a history of the debt since January 1993 can be obtained. Considering the government's fiscal year ends on the last day of September each year, and considering Clinton's budget proposal in 1993 took effect in October 1993 and concluded September 1994 (FY1994), here's the national debt at the end of each year of Clinton Budgets

As can clearly be seen, in no year did the national debt go down, nor did Clinton leave President Bush with a budget surplus that Bush subsequently turned into a deficit. Yes, the budget was almost balanced in FY2000 (ending in September 2000 with a deficit of "only" $17.9 billion), but it never reached zero--let alone a positive number. And Clinton's last budget proposal for FY2001, which ended in September 2001, generated a $133.29 billion deficit. The growing deficits started in the year of the last Clinton budget, not in the first year of the Bush administration.

Keep in mind that President Bush took office in January 2001 and his first budget took effect October 1, 2001 for the year ending September 30, 2002 (FY2002). So the $133.29 billion deficit in the year ending September 2001 was Clinton's. Granted, Bush supported a tax refund where taxpayers received checks in 2001. However, the total amount refunded to taxpayers was $38 billion . So even if we assume that $38 billion of the FY2001 deficit was due to Bush's tax refunds which were not part of Clinton's last budget, that still means that Clinton's last budget produced a deficit of 133.29 - 38 = $95.29 billion.

Clinton clearly did not achieve a surplus and he didn't leave President Bush with a surplus.

So why do they said he had a surplus?

[Stephen Eisel]

I cannot adjust the header (I can but is does not move). Please note that the National Debt increased every year from 1994 until 2004 ...


09/30/1993 $4.411488 trillion
FY1994 09/30/1994 $4.692749 trillion
FY1995 09/29/1995 $4.973982 trillion
FY1996 09/30/1996 $5.224810 trillion
FY1997 09/30/1997 $5.413146 trillion
FY1998 09/30/1998 $5.526193 trillion
FY1999 09/30/1999 $5.656270 trillion
FY2000 09/29/2000 $5.674178 trillion
FY2001 09/28/2001 $5.807463 trillion

[stephen davis]

...I think Bush has been forced to make the best dinner he could, given he wasn't able to shop for the groceries.

On the contrary, it's like you loaned him your credit card to go to Heinen's to buy some dinner for your family and he bought $87,000 worth of Lobster, steak, caviar, and fine wines for his friends on the lake in Rocky River, and only brought home a box of Corn Flakes for you.

[ryan costa]

Then we declare war on Iraq, a country that had never harmed us

Here is repost from another thread... Jim, did you know that Clinton spent time on developing an Iraq invasion plan???


The House/ Senate Intelligence Committees also agreed that Iraq was a secuity threat to the world and The US.

http://intelligence.senate.gov/members1 ... gress.html


I know that you hate old people but please listen to the words of your Democratic elders..

whatever the democrats are guilty of doesn't make the republicans less guilty.

There are innumerable plans to invade or react to hypothetical situations with military force. some are in greater stages of development than others.

The first gulf war settled everything Saddam Hussein/Iraq was guilty of before the first gulf war. There are no do overs.

Invading Iraq was about as necessary as invading Saudi Arabia, Belarus, China, Dubai, Nigeria, Apartheid South Africa, or these places gangsta rappers write about.

Upon committing to invading Iraq, the Bush Administration proceeded with overly optimist expectations. I don't know what fueled these overly optimistic expectations. The First Bush President didn't have these overly optimistic expectations.

What could America have done differently upon displacing the Saddam Hussein regime? Keeping the majority of Iraq's government in place would be a good start. Keeping most of the existing military and police, and their officers, and other bureaucracies in place might have helped. the iraqi government had been pretty secular and included both sunnis and shia muslims for years. in a power vacuum severe as that inflicted by the United States the same thing happened as when power vacuums arose in yugoslavia, post-monarchy France, and numerous former colonies in Africa and Asia. people are either scrambling for power or in fear of others scrambling for power.

[Jim O'Bryan]

There are innumerable plans to invade or react to hypothetical situations with military force. some are in greater stages of development than others.

The first gulf war settled everything Saddam Hussein/Iraq was guilty of before the first gulf war. There are no do overs.

Invading Iraq was about as necessary as invading Saudi Arabia, Belarus, China, Dubai, Nigeria, Apartheid South Africa, or these places gangsta rappers write about.

Upon committing to invading Iraq, the Bush Administration proceeded with overly optimist expectations. I don't know what fueled these overly optimistic expectations. The First Bush President didn't have these overly optimistic expectations.

What could America have done differently upon displacing the Saddam Hussein regime? Keeping the majority of Iraq's government in place would be a good start. Keeping most of the existing military and police, and their officers, and other bureaucracies in place might have helped. the iraqi government had been pretty secular and included both sunnis and shia muslims for years. in a power vacuum severe as that inflicted by the United States the same thing happened as when power vacuums arose in yugoslavia, post-monarchy France, and numerous former colonies in Africa and Asia. people are either scrambling for power or in fear of others scrambling for power.

Ryan

Don;t let the Callentine wind blow you around. George Bush talked of invading Iraq before he was president. It was before being president he mentioned that, and, "We would need a really big reason to go in."

Of course he was mixed up thinking 911 was that really big reason he had been praying for. You know you want a bike for Christmas, you run down in the morning and there is a box under the tree big enough to be a bike. You get all excited and wait "7 minutes" before opening, and you find out it is a desk to do homework on. Damn!

What America could have done with Sadaam is keep his checks going and send him the Viagra and Frank Sinatra CDs he loved getting from us. Maybe some more of those cowboy boots too. Let's not forget, we put him in there, we paved and paid his way, we sold him our old Chemical Weapons, and even helped him with targeting. But if you are a "paper warrior" why not attack the country that never even shot at you last time you attacked them?

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[ryan costa]

the news clips from the RNC were interesting. Bush addressed the convention with a line about "the lessons of 9/11!". The lessons of 9/11 are simple: citizens from your allies will train in Florida and Germany and with Microsoft Flight simulator, then use plastic shanks to hijack jet planes and fly them into buildings. The general public will then get riled up enough to do whatever you want.

Joe Lieberman addressed the convention. He said something about putting our nation first. I remember seeing Lieberman on an infomercial soliciting funds to help Russian jews emigrate to Israel.

Fred Thompson came on. He is famous for being a celebrity. He accused Obama of being the most liberal candidate ever. I'd wager Nixon, Eisenhower, Truman, FDR, and even Teddy Roosevelt were more liberal than Obama.

Palin accused Obama of not wanting Victory. Think of Iraq as being like the Mexican Revolution, which dragged on for nearly 20 years in fits and starts. Now think of Iraq as a place much more populated than Mexico back then, with many people having cell phones and radios.