Can we learn from Youngstown?

[Stan Austin]

Bill---

Peaceful low crime communities aren't that way because of a heavy police presence they are that way because of the people who live their.

This statement is in direct contradiction to your past statements agreeing with past campaign propaganda which ignores straight, factuual FBI statistics on crime in Lakewood.

Stan

[Bryan Schwegler]

CD

As they all turn to Lakewood, or at least people in Lakewood making differences in cutting edge programs, we turn to the worst of the bunch, or the second, or the third, and copy them?

Jim, no one is saying "copy them", but there could still be learnings. Personally I think it's complete folly to not try to learn from what others are doing.

It's a mistake to always assume we always know better and no one else's ideas are worth considering. The "not invented here" syndrome has killed countless companies and is usually the most inefficient way to get things done.

Just because someone outside Lakewood thought of it doesn't make it bad. Sometimes there's snippets we can learn from what they're doing.

For some reason, you seem to keep gravitating to the idea that if we're smaller we've failed. I would challenge that we can be extremely successful and smaller. There's no point in fighting a losing battle. This region will not see a population boom in anyone's foreseeable future. At best we'll maintain, but in likelihood, we'll shrink a bit. There's nothing wrong with that. We just need to plan and consider it.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jim, no one is saying "copy them", but there could still be learnings. Personally I think it's complete folly to not try to learn from what others are doing.

Bryan


I am not saying do not do it. I am just saying some of the hottest cities look to Lakewood for ideas and inspiration, meanwhile many of the "movers and shakers" ignore this success and say look outside. I find it more than mildly ironic, the ones they bring in are either 1) Not the ones that thought of it or did it, and 2) It was actually done by Lakewoodites.

I would also have to say the opposite is true, just because it came from a Lakewood resident, does not make it bad or should be ignored.

The single biggest and best idea for Lakewood came from Savannah Farris. Yet it was totally ignored! Why?

Another proven winner in Lakewood, Gold Coast Condos, even in this economy they are doing well. Why is it that is never even studied? Instead of turning to Youngstown, that is totally lost, why not look at what works here now?

I think Lakewood is unique enough, that many of the so called, "ideas" simply cannot carry over, and/or turns one of the things Lakewood is unique about into crap.

Why do we want to study how a city is managing if not expediting their failure and demise?



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[Valerie Molinski]

I am just saying some of the hottest cities look to Lakewood for ideas and inspiration

Who is that, exactly? I've lived in some of the hottest cities in the country and they share some traits with Lakewood, but in most instances, they are doing 'it' ten times better than we are... and I am pretty sure those ideas didnt originate here....

[Stephen Eisel]

Bill---

Peaceful low crime communities aren't that way because of a heavy police presence they are that way because of the people who live their.

This statement is in direct contradiction to your past statements agreeing with past campaign propaganda which ignores straight, factuual FBI statistics on crime in Lakewood.

Stan

So, what are you saying about the people of Lakewood???

[Jim O'Bryan]

I am just saying some of the hottest cities look to Lakewood for ideas and inspiration

Who is that, exactly? I've lived in some of the hottest cities in the country and they share some traits with Lakewood, but in most instances, they are doing 'it' ten times better than we are... and I am pretty sure those ideas didnt originate here....

Valerie

How many of these hottest cities that you lived in had not mastered safer and clean?

I am not saying these cities, even the hottest ones you lived in that are doing it ten times better than us, owe it all to Lakewood. I am merely mentioning that while many here now look to Youngstown on the proper way to downsize Lakewood. Many other cities have turned to Lakewood, Lakewood people, and some Lakewood programs.

That before we look to a city that is failing, maybe, we could continue on an approach that is working.

So how or why did you move to a city that is doing it "ten times worse than other cities you lived in"?

My short list would be, West Haven, Vista, CA, Pittsburgh, Rochester, New Orleans, Austin, San Francisco, Basalt, CO, Phoenix, Lexington, KY, Atlantic Highlands, for starters. In our area, Bay Village, Westlake, Cleveland Heights, Ashtabula, Geauga County, Medina, Westlake, Olmsteds. That I can personally attest to.

Can we now also ask Bill about his "Secret Source #4" or am I the only drilled down?

The point is to look to cities that are similar and making growth a reality, that are holding it's own, or at least, making life better for those there. I do not see Youngstown as a good model for Lakewood's future in any way shape or form. The suburb of Seattle, Freemont, now that is a completely different thing. Freemont has decided after years of fighting it that on top of safe and clean, they were going to have FUN doing it.

Also let me say I am not judging this administration on "safe and clean" yet. Our City Hall has been working hard on the budget. All I am saying is if they can deliver safer and clean. We have a tremendous chance to stand out from other cities in the region.

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[Dee Martinez]

[

That before we look to a city that is failing, maybe, we could continue on an approach that is working.



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Jim with all due respect, what part is "working"? We are still bleeding residents and many of the ones that are staying are looking to get out. Our city is facing a financial crisis that may change the very nature of our city and its services.
If there is any city or neighborhood that has looked to Lakewood OH for answers I havent read about it. At this point Lakewood is much more a consumer of ideas that a generater.

The "Savannah" project was far too grandiose for a city that cant make its budget. In a city that may need to lay off firemen, you couldnt even study it, and no private entity had any interest in it, either. If someone is going to spend billions to create waterfront property where none existed, chances are they will do it in Hawaii and not Ohio, woulndt you think?

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jim with all due respect, what part is "working"? We are still bleeding residents and many of the ones that are staying are looking to get out. Our city is facing a financial crisis that may change the very nature of our city and its services.
If there is any city or neighborhood that has looked to Lakewood OH for answers I havent read about it. At this point Lakewood is much more a consumer of ideas that a generater.

The "Savannah" project was far too grandiose for a city that cant make its budget. In a city that may need to lay off firemen, you couldnt even study it, and no private entity had any interest in it, either. If someone is going to spend billions to create waterfront property where none existed, chances are they will do it in Hawaii and not Ohio, woulndt you think?

Dee

First, lets say as we look at this thread, that maybe, just maybe we have a self esteem problem. While some of my comments are a tad over the top(it's my style or lack of style) I am amazed at this thread. It is nearly as outrageous as a Lakewoodite's thread on the Heights Observer "Is crime in the Heights as bad as the crime in Lakewood?" Which would mimic similar threads by him on Cleveland.com and elsewhere.

Why do you not read about it? One example I can use, is the Heights, from when they came to check out the Lakewood Observer, as a Economic Development Tool and Community Building tool, to when I could even mention their name has been 14 months. This is true with other projects we have had in the works. Last week Ruthie sat down with commerce people from France, they had grown frustrated of trying to work with Cleveland but noticed Lakewood. I know of another group that is negotiating with a large 50+ school district about some cutting ideas that were grown here in Lakewood. Ken Warren recently went and spoke at Carnegie Mellon University about success with LEAF Community and Lakewood Observer.

Dee our key, the key we have always had was at least a small group of people willing to do the hard work for many others to enjoy. That Lakewood is not on the brink of closing down, it just no longer sports thousands of massive Irish Catholic Families. When compared to cities near by, or around the US(ask Dan Slife) we are holding our own as well if not better than some of the hottest(Seattle, San Francsisco, I am sure Dan's list will be published with his story).

The only thing we do not have a handle on is clean, and for some reason the entire county seems to suffer from this. One reason I say, if we can do clean, it will go a long way to attracting new residents and businesses.

What I am sure does not attract new business is ways to manage the decline of a city. That maybe we need to downsize... One thing we have going for us is our population, this is where we should work to build first. !0,000 more shoppers and tax payers would go pretty far with our new leaner city hall.

One thing i am not sure is why you feel we are so connected to Cleveland? I realize they are our neighbor, and their new 30 year tax abated properties has taken a classic step out of "Slaughter of Cities." But if Cleveland disappeared tomorrow, or downsized ala Youngstown, I have to believe Lakewood would have to carry on, and could carry on. So if we are looking to downsizing, why not figure Cleveland did and plan for that day? Why give up on one of the real jewels of the area. A place that still attracts business, residents, and is on the regions largest employer of a great place to assist new employees to move to?

Dee, the Savannah program was far to small for this city. Just so we can clear this up. Savannah's program came from months and months of hard work. Much harder work then those we paid to study Lakewood Park and come up with a "new driveway." So the city filed it away with some of the smallest thinking I have ever witnessed. Then missing the entire point of the Penisula, they wanted to cherry pick ideas, which made no sense.

The study, we are paying 6 times more to TRY to renegotiate police contracts, then the study would have cost. But that does not matter, Savannah found funding for the study! But without the help of the city it sits. Did I mention she found funding to help build it as well?! That for $50,000,000 we would have netted a true attraction to move here, and at minimum from someone that didn't like the project for personal reasons $250,000,000 in taxable property! Did I mention she had two builders interested? One thought it should be twice as big! Would only cost 20% more but yield $500,000,000 in taxable property! What would that do to Lakewood?

So we spend $50,000,000 with assistance from the Federal Government, and pre selling to developers, and we would have gotten the coolest park on the lake for FREE!

Even if it was never to happen, the study would have attracted attention to Lakewood as a forward thinking city trying to manage growth instead of decline. This is the kind of news stories that attract people to a city. It would give Lakewoodites and Lakewood businesses hope, which is never a bad thing.

Another one of Lakewood's nightmares is that we are built out. This makes it extremely difficult to take a chance. Every move we make we have to gamble with property all ready bringing in money. We do not have massive tracts of empty land. However Savannah's Plan would have given that to us, in a very "high rent" part of town. It also delivered high end living and retail. And a FREE Park.

So to sum up, study would have been funded, but it does nto matter because if we can find money for fireworks, negotiators, assistants and $$25 mill for schools and another $12 mill for the library I think we could find the estimated $30,000. But we did nto need too. I have personally spoke with two private groups that are very well known names, well one is Stark, that was very interested in the idea. Bob Stark is the one that wanted it twice as big. He also thought city hall couldn't pull it together.

Or more to the point, had the mayor laid off Terry Novak, he could have funded 3 of these studies three years ago.

Dee, one of my single biggest disappointments in my entire life here was the lack of attention given to that plan. My second biggest disappointment would be why the plan was actually ignored. One might also think why a plan on the lake was ignored, and why any talk of extending the gold coast is ignored or never even mentioned in studies.

Dee/Val/Bryan

I think we all want what is best for Lakewood. My entire attitude in life is to shot as high as you can knowing, you might fall short. When you aim low, and fall short, it gets ugly real fast. At least in my world.

All

I am not right, this is why the Deck was constructed. Serious talk about Lakewood and where we are headed. It was always our hop from these forms of heated discussions we cold vet ideas, we could look at disect how others do it or don't do it. Please do not take my strong advocacy of my thoughts as arrogance. I am not a city planner, I know that. Bu I have with the help of others seen a future that is worth shooting for, with little cost involved, and obtainable.


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[Dee Martinez]

Jim I commend you for the Observer and its offshoot and I am happy it has worked out for you and that it has served as a model for some other places.
But I am not talking about your personal gain with AGS, I am talking about the CITY. If we are such a success, why are we slashing the Office on Aging and talking about laying off firemen?
Thats not a "self esteem" issue, its mathematics and demographics. Whether or not we are tied to the City of Cleveland, we are certainly tied to the overall fortunes of northeast Ohio and those have not been good. Even "hot" burbs like Strongsville and Brunswick are hurting. And since we share two of our borders with Cleveland its impossible to avoid the infectionwhen Cleveland gets sick. West 117th St is NOT "Highland Ave", a separate world from the Cleveland side, and calling it such wont change the fact that the border is getting blurrier by the day. If you doubt me, look at Harrison schools report card. Those are Cleveland school numbers.

As for the "Savannah" plan, why in the world would you be able to presume that the feds would kick in ANYTHING for this, let alone $50 million? My God, wed have Lou Dobbs here on a nightly basis. Lakewood would take Alaskas place as the poster child for "pork". It was a nice fancy by a talented college student and when Lakewood has an extra $50 million or so in its bank account it may come to fruition. But as public policy for a city that cant meet its current payroll? That wouldnt be responsible stewardship.

Look at the "Cliffs" project. Brand new waterfront housing and the developer cant make it work.

[Charyn Compeau]

Just a few thoughts....

I think there is a lot of agreement here and that there is great value in recognizing it:

1) Lakewood's population is getting smaller and the community and administration's response to that shrinkage (I am purposefully avoiding the charged word 'decline') will have a large impact on what Lakewood will be tomorrow

2) Bring safe and clean is a critical part of staying a strong vibrant community (of any size)

3) Lakewood has a wonderful array of amenities that enhance the experience of living in Lakewood

4) Lakewood (citizens, business owners, community leaders, etc) believe that we need to craft our response to the shrinkage of the population now and not 'wait it out' to see what happens

These are the things I have no doubt every poster here would agree with. There is just some disagreement about why things are the way the are and how to respond to ensure a safe clean city in the future that will retain the amenities that we either grew up with, or came to live close to. A city that will remain a wonderful place to live, create a social network of friends, and raise a family.

Even as you disagree, always remember you are all on the same team

I think that studying Youngstown is a very valuable exercise - not because we should do what they do, but because it is important to see what has happened, why it happened, and how different strategies have worked (or not worked). I believe the quote is 'Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.' Youngstown's past is not ours - and by understanding what has happened there, and what is happening now as a result, we are better prepared to prevent the same from occurring here.

I think that the only issue with thinking of Lakewood as wholly self sustaining is that the employment base is simply not large enough. Even with all of the little storefronts filled up we have way more housing than places for people to work. The work from home crowd and the independent business owners are not enough to employ everyone, and there are a limited number of large scale employers.

And lastly, I think that safe and clean needs to start from the top. Clean parks, clean public spaces, clean streets, etc. The city properties should reflect what the expectation is. There is no excuse I can imagine for overflowing trash cans, broken equipment, etc.

Business storefronts should have the highest of bars set for them when it comes to cleanliness. Yes, I do know that it is hard to own a business - but I cannot fathom any excuse for not going outside in the morning (or evening) each day and picking up in front of your store, or keeping your place clean. And I certainly do not believe that citing and fining business owners that do not maintain their space (cough marcs cough) is unreasonable.

There is a lot of truth in the fact that people that are in clean places will work harder to keep it clean. One anecdote and I am done

When I ran the restaurants I would often be assigned to a store that had operational difficulties - low profits, low morale, etc. The very first rule that I would set, and I would set it the very first day, was that the floors and bathrooms must always be spotless. The second was that each employees uniform had to be spotless. They were advised of the standard in a meeting and given a reasonable amount of time to comply - no grace periods after. With just those two basic rules, I could change the entire morale of a store in a matter of weeks. Employees would then start to take pride in where they worked and what they did, which inspired them to keep things cleaner and nicer, which gave them more pride, etc. Once the message starts to reinforce itself - the momentum can grow rapidly with just a basic amount of encouragement and enforcement.

With that momentum, we could then make the needed operational changes to improve operation. And typically within a few months we would be gaining customer, earning top QA scores, and making profits. From this experience I have leared that people really WANT to have pride in where they are, they WANT to be a part of the winning team so to speak. They just dont always know how to come together to do it. That is where the leadership from city hall becomes so crucial.

Always,
Charyn

[Bryan Schwegler]

First, lets say as we look at this thread, that maybe, just maybe we have a self esteem problem. While some of my comments are a tad over the top(it's my style or lack of style) I am amazed at this thread. It is nearly as outrageous as a Lakewoodite's thread on the Heights Observer "Is crime in the Heights as bad as the crime in Lakewood?" Which would mimic similar threads by him on Cleveland.com and elsewhere.

Jim,
I think you're being a bit melodramatic and completely reading too much into what the purpose of this thread is. It has nothing to do with self-esteem, it has nothing to do with failure.

I simply broached the subject of planning for a better, smaller Lakewood and are there things that we can learn from other cities as they work through the process of "rightsizing".

In the end though it seems that you're equating any notion of smaller population as failure or a self-esteem problem. I don't agree nor do I think that's the case.

This entire region is losing population to the rest of the country. That trend combined with smaller family sizes almost guarantees a smaller population base in all areas of NE Ohio.

I want to be very clear, smaller does not equal failure. Nor did I ever say we should become Youngstown, but rather we should look at what they're doing to see if there's anything to learn, just as I hope we look at many other places to see what we can learn. Lakewood people have great ideas, but so do those outside of Lakewood.

If we aren't open to the ideas of others or only assume that we know what's right, that's what truly equals failure IMHO.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Bryan

I am not being melodramatic to the thread, but to some comments that have come out of the thread.

But your points are well taken.


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[Valerie Molinski]

I am just saying some of the hottest cities look to Lakewood for ideas and inspiration

Who is that, exactly? I've lived in some of the hottest cities in the country and they share some traits with Lakewood, but in most instances, they are doing 'it' ten times better than we are... and I am pretty sure those ideas didnt originate here....

Valerie

How many of these hottest cities that you lived in had not mastered safer and clean?

So how or why did you move to a city that is doing it "ten times worse than other cities you lived in"?

My short list would be, West Haven, Vista, CA, Pittsburgh, Rochester, New Orleans, Austin, San Francisco, Basalt, CO, Phoenix, Lexington, KY, Atlantic Highlands, for starters. In our area, Bay Village, Westlake, Cleveland Heights, Ashtabula, Geauga County, Medina, Westlake, Olmsteds. That I can personally attest to.

The point is to look to cities that are similar and making growth a reality, that are holding it's own, or at least, making life better for those there. I do not see Youngstown as a good model for Lakewood's future in any way shape or form. The suburb of Seattle, Freemont, now that is a completely different thing. Freemont has decided after years of fighting it that on top of safe and clean, they were going to have FUN doing it.

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Let's see... I've lived in San Franciso, Portland, OR and Dallas, Texas.

The majority of my time was spend in Portland, where they are doing it ten times better. They don't have a lake, so what is the draw? The weather wouldnt be it either. It s a smaller manageable city that is very walkable and safe and clean. How did they do that? Development is still going gangbusters there and the most sought after areas to live are the close in neighborhoods. The suburbs are verboten there. How did they do it? They downsized. They made an urban growth boundary and LIMITED development so that what was left became even more valuable. Public transportation is invested in there and seen as viable (buses, streetcars, trains, trams). They took an area of the city (the Pearl District) that was known for industry, dive bars and hookers) and made it into one of the most expensive places (sq foot) to buy property.


I've been to other place you mentioned as 'examples' and I would say that Pittsburgh has become a lot more progressive that this area in a lot shorter time. They too have downsized and are courting the creative class more than anything. They have a rust belt city that they are slowing turning into a sustainable model.

Bay Village is and has always been a magnet due to its name... "I live in Bay." And that is how it is sustaining itself. I personally would shoot myself if I had someone like Dick Feagler as my neighbor, however.

Westlake is HOT right now because it is recreating a 'safe downtown.' Read: white. But it is Disney and there is nothing real about it. It will not, in my opinion, stand the test of time. When more minorities move to that area, the push will be to the exurbs and Westlake will be talked about like Lakewood is now and they too will suffer population losses.

Hell, even a car culture city like Dallas got its sh*t together and invested in public transportation and it is very popular there. They have built museums and have also courted a creative class of younger people.

As far as Fremont (one E), I would not call it a suburb of Seattle. It is a neighborhood of Seattle and not really viewed as separate. Fremont had long been one of the least desirable neighborhoods but it was close in to Seattle and that is what it has going for it. We cant really cull on our proximity to downtown as a selling point, unfortunately, even though it was for me and my husband. We didnt want to have the heinous commute or cookie cutter house living out in the 'burbs.

Which brings me to my last point...why did I move from a city that is doing it 10 times better than here? I ask the same question myself sometimes..... ultimately, it was a mix of family proximity and other things. We only looked in Lakewood when we returned to this region and began hunting for houses because of many of the reasons cited in this thread.

And I've 'known' Lakewood for almost 20 years, so I feel I am well aware of the changes, good and bad, that have occurred. There is plenty of room for improvement and it needs to change, whether it be downsizing or what have you. I think Youngstown should not be ignored in this respect. They seem to be creating better opportunities out of becoming smaller. And as someone else said, smaller does not equal defeat... it could mean smarter.

[chris richards]

[
My short list would be, West Haven, Vista, CA, Pittsburgh, Rochester, New Orleans, Austin, San Francisco, Basalt, CO, Phoenix, Lexington, KY, Atlantic Highlands, for starters. In our area, Bay Village, Westlake, Cleveland Heights, Ashtabula, Geauga County, Medina, Westlake, Olmsteds. That I can personally attest to.
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(ears perk up) did someone say ashtabula?

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08055/859990-176.stm#

this is a recent article titled "Ashtabula: A city that cries despair," subtitled "'Basically, we need someone to rescue us.'"

can i ask what exactly ashtabula has learned from lakewood? advertising to other states and cities that welfare can be provided quickly and having an abundance of cheap housing wasn't one of them was it? i dunno. i don't see much in ashtabula that even comes close to resembling lakewood. or in moving in a simialr direction. sure, the harbor is starting to pick up with people opening local businesses like yoga studios (not sure if that one is still there or not) and coffee shops, but that's not a lakewood model. it's people seeing potential and having the euntrepenurial spirit. not very unique to lakewood.

at the same time that these brave people are trying to revitalize bridge street, the city is shutting down the lift bridge for the summer for repairs and reconstruction on goodwill drive. summer is of course a peek season for the area which could drastically hurt those businesses. planning in ashtabula has never been that great, just look at the mall... and the emptying if not already empty shopping plazas.

[Jim O'Bryan]

(ears perk up) did someone say ashtabula?

Chris


Might be why they turned to the people they did.

Troubled lakefront, strong history, commerce problems, however they have some very interesting positives then can build on.

Problem is they saw themselves dependent on others, without charting a direction that they can control, while still working with others.

Should be interesting summer.


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