Can we learn from Youngstown?

[Jim O'Bryan]

What can Youngstown teach us? That sometimes Cities die a natural death. Of course, sometimes they are murdered.

Bill

As I have often said, grabbing the anchor on the Titanic is never a wise idea.

Creating a "group" from a slew of bad managers does not seem wise either.


Dee

So if Cleveland "downsizes" without allowing Lakewood to annex our new 5th Ward, what happens to Lakewood. Am I correct in visualizing large tracks of "land banked property"?

What if it goes empty around Lakewood?


CD

What if we plan for 40,000 and through managing our decline we go to 15,000? Did we not over plan our decline?


Just questions, to me...

Cleveland it was the city that WAS just east of Lakewood.


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[Dee Martinez]

Just as a matter of record, the quote attributed to me in Jims post was actually by Mr Call.

As to the jist of the response, at some point we need to stop thinking that we are somehow independent of other communities to our east, south, and west.
Lakewood has a stake in what happens to Cleveland. River has a stake in what happens to Lakewood. Parochialism wont work to anyones benefit.
This doesnt mean Lakewood needs to bow and scrape at the altar of Grand Wizard Jackson. It does mean that we have to stay engaged and at the table.

No, there is no golden morning on the horizon for any community in NEO. We will all have to come up with our own strategies for dealing with the inevitable.

I say, safe, clean, and SMALLER.

[Shawn Juris]

What would be the result of eliminating 10% of the apartments in the city be? What percentage would need to be eliminated in order to shift the market to be profitable again for landlords? We've talked and seen duplexes begin to be converted to singles. Why go so slow? Why not take out several 3-4 story apartments or a high rise that is getting the cheapest rents? While renters individually are not bad, I think that shifting the homeowner/tenant balance would improve the city on several levels.

[Dee Martinez]

What would be the result of eliminating 10% of the apartments in the city be? What percentage would need to be eliminated in order to shift the market to be profitable again for landlords? We've talked and seen duplexes begin to be converted to singles. Why go so slow? Why not take out several 3-4 story apartments or a high rise that is getting the cheapest rents? While renters individually are not bad, I think that shifting the homeowner/tenant balance would improve the city on several levels.

You may be right. No, you probably ARE right. But all of those buildings are private property, so "we" can't "take them out." We have to buy them at whatever price the owner sets. Ay, theres the rub.

[Bryan Schwegler]

You may be right. No, you probably ARE right. But all of those buildings are private property, so "we" can't "take them out." We have to buy them at whatever price the owner sets. Ay, theres the rub.

Unless you blight them and take them with eminent domain.

Isn't that what the West End project was attempting to do?

[Jim O'Bryan]

No, there is no golden morning on the horizon for any community in NEO. We will all have to come up with our own strategies for dealing with the inevitable.

I say, safe, clean, and SMALLER.

Dee

While we need a seat at the table, I have watched and watch Cleveland manage themselves into near oblivion on the lies of many. It seems to me that every week Cleveland has found a new pile of magic beans to trade their cow in on.

Shawn

I think it would be wise to ask, why are so many Lakewood doubles empty, before we tear down 10% of them. It seems to me that one of the biggest problems with rentals was the low cost of loans and money. Add to that a cash rich society that was built on false dreams and hopes, and I see the rental market coming back really strong in the next year.

Provided that the rentals are nice, and on safe, clean streets.

I mean the writing for this is on the wall. Home foreclosures through the roof, and debts soaring out of a control. This is on every news source in America. It is not a secret, we (Lakewood) are once again in the catbird seat.

The question is, are we ready to capitalize on it, or do we completely give up and manage decline.

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[Bryan Schwegler]

Provided that the rentals are nice, and on safe, clean streets.

So how do we ensure the rentals are nice? Most of the slumlords don't really seem to care and the city seems completely unable to do anything about it.

How do we do this?

Safe, clean streets the city can deal with. But slumlords that don't care, that's a little more challenging.

[Bill Call]

....... Why not take out several 3-4 story apartments or a high rise that is getting the cheapest rents? While renters individually are not bad, I think that shifting the homeowner/tenant balance would improve the city on several levels.

Dealing with overtime abuse, increasing operational efficiency and cutting Lakewoods welfare department were the easy part. Increasing taxes is just a little easier. Actually making the decision to tear down apartments, redevelop parkland, eliminate obsolete housing and renew business districts will be the really hard part. That's why some people are less optimistic than others.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Safe, clean streets the city can deal with. But slumlords that don't care, that's a little more challenging.

I want it understood that I am a landlord, and was a renter for a long time.

One thing we had looked at was a program we had called, "Wack-em-All" It was a fee that was to be levied against landlords for each unit.

The money would go to the "police levy" and low cost loans for landlords to improve their properties.

The fact remains, that we have rules, we have regulations and they need to be enforced, heavily. While I am cited by the city for damage their tree did to my house. I pointed out to that city official another house in the neighborhood that had 35' of gutter hanging, paint peeling, backyard overgrown, and on and on and on. His answer was, "Oh so now you drop dime on your neighbor?" My answer was, "Yes and please let him know I did."

30 days later I am recited for the gutter, that I am waiting for the city's insurance agent to see and approve, and his gutter now flaps around enough to hit my rental.

Stop the insanity.

Safe/Clean

Don't really need anything but that right now.


FWIW

[Dee Martinez]

Safe/Clean

Don't really need anything but that right now.


FWIW

The problem is you cant cite, arrest, or fine your way into safety and cleanliness. If you could, wouldnt Newark and Gary INdiana have already done that?

The people who will hang their heads, say "I'm sorry" and pay a fine are probably the ones who didnt do anything wrong in the first place. If you dont care enough to fix your gutters or not paint graffiti on a wall, why would we presume youll march down to City Hall and pay a fine?

Crime and deterioration follow poverty as certainly as night follows day and right now, nearly half of Lakewoods school children are considered "economically disadvantaged" The figure is higher in certain neighborhoods.


Lakewoods issues, such as they are, can only be resolved if we get our equilibrium back between those who care and those who dont (thats the criterion, not income, race, ethnicity, or even commitment to the brand).

[Bill Call]

The problem is you cant cite, arrest, or fine your way into safety and cleanliness. If you could, wouldnt Newark and Gary INdiana have already done that?

The people who will hang their heads, say "I'm sorry" and pay a fine are probably the ones who didnt do anything wrong in the first place.

Oh my, we are in agreement again.

If you have to tell someone not to throw trash out the window you are wasting your time when you tell them not to throw trash out the window.

Peaceful low crime communities aren't that way because of a heavy police presence they are that way because of the people who live their.

Which is why without a housing policy everything else is just buying time.

[Jim O'Bryan]

The problem is you cant cite, arrest, or fine your way into safety and cleanliness. If you could, wouldnt Newark and Gary INdiana have already done that?

The people who will hang their heads, say "I'm sorry" and pay a fine are probably the ones who didnt do anything wrong in the first place. If you dont care enough to fix your gutters or not paint graffiti on a wall, why would we presume youll march down to City Hall and pay a fine?

Crime and deterioration follow poverty as certainly as night follows day and right now, nearly half of Lakewoods school children are considered "economically disadvantaged" The figure is higher in certain neighborhoods.


Lakewoods issues, such as they are, can only be resolved if we get our equilibrium back between those who care and those who dont (thats the criterion, not income, race, ethnicity, or even commitment to the brand).

Dee

I think we are actually speaking the same thing. Pretend someone else is writing this.

One thing, I am hoping the home owners are not the ones spraying graffiti.

You can get some serious fines and I believe even jail time for not correcting a citation. My neighbor was lead off in handcuffs years ago when he did not paint his house and thumbed his nose at city hall.

Your point would be, he still hasn't learned. I understand that but why give up on the lesson.

My point, and one that I am not making very well is I am not sure how much lower we can place the bar for this administration or residents than safe and clean. If we really cannot do this, then it is all lost.

Students, parents, teachers, business owners(serious teaching needed there), and residents, is it so tough? We must make this the cornerstone of all other work. We must accomplish this now and stop the excuses.

The city must lead through example. Studies have shown that people tend to keep and even work to keep clean places clean. When some see liter, they see no reason not to add to it. We should be able to stand on Highland and see a dramatic difference between Cleveland and Lakewood. If we can't we have failed.

Why bring people to Lakewood for the Car Show, the Arts Festival, Fireworks or ANYTHING if all we are going to do showcase a dirty run down city, with, to borrow from the last election, "crime out of control."

The simple question is, are we frosting a cake that is not even baked yet?

How can we even talk about fireworks, and parades?


FWIW

[c. dawson]

The question is, are we ready to capitalize on it, or do we completely give up and manage decline.

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One thing ... if a city's population is shrinking, it can mean decline ... but if that interpretation is true, then managed decline is much better than ignoring decline or hoping it goes away or somehow gets reversed ... if it does prove true that the trend of Lakewood's population decreasing is something that really is continuing, even on a small basis, wouldn't it make sense then to address that by changing the city to be better able to serve a smaller population? The risk of keeping endless amounts of houses in hopes that they will someday fill again results in absentee landlords continually lowering the price, in order to attract folks ... and as the price lowers, so often will the quality of renter, because there are landlords out there who just want their properties filled, and they don't particularly care who does it. Wouldn't it be better to reduce the number of homes in Lakewood, and encourage more home ownership, and strong neighborhoods? This is something that Euclid has started to do in a small way, buying old apartment buildings, demolishing them, and selling the land to developers for single-family homes. The problem is perceived in Euclid that having too many rental homes and apartments is detrimental to the city; they want families in the city, and people who are there to stay, rather than a transient population.

a diminished population does not always have to mean decline ... but in some way, I think this is akin to Pandora's Box being opened ... I think Lakewood's population will continue to reduce slightly, and stabilize at a lower level. I don't think there ever will be a population amount in Lakewood like 50 years ago ... or even 20 years ago. If this is true, then the city and the residents do need to address this, and start finding ways to make the city a better place for the folks who remain, and the folks who do want to move here.

There is no easy solution, nor any quick solution ... And frankly, there may not be a solution that works to the satisfaction of everyone ... or works at all. But trying something is better than just hoping everything gets better. It'd be better to have less houses in Lakewood, and then somehow if miracles happen and more housing is needed, then deal with that issue in a positive and proactive way ... but I really doubt that more housing will be needed in the future, though I do think that more NEW housing, such as reusing land like Rockport is doing may be another solution at attracting folks ... beginning the slow replacement of aging housing stock with new housing stock in some cases, or replacing old apartment buildings with new condos.

This has been an interesting discussion ... I dunno, I think the Library should bring in someone from Youngstown to discuss what they're doing there, and talk about the good ideas and even bad ideas, and what results they're seeing so far, and what they wouldn't do again, or what they would do again ... and maybe use that as a springboard for future discussion in LakewoodAlive or in other groups.

[David Anderson]

The region is not wilting away at least as it concerns population. In fact, three counties contiguous to Cuyahoga are growing at the same pace or higher as it is declining.

However, total population in the counties that surround Cuyahoga is not growing as fast as Cleveland and the inner ring suburbs are declining. Total population for these seven counties is down 1.0% since 2000. (However, this basic “break evenâ€

[Jim O'Bryan]

CD

Much of the 70,000 was large families which are no longer the trend.

As for getting someone in from Youngstown, Hunter Morrison is the magic man(?!) The ex-Mr. Campbell

Youngstown had our own Library Director Ken Warren down there asking how we are doing so well up here and how they could copy us.

This is what I just do not understand.

As they all turn to Lakewood, or at least people in Lakewood making differences in cutting edge programs, we turn to the worst of the bunch, or the second, or the third, and copy them?

At the LakewoodAlive meeting on Art Districts they had a bunch of "wannabees" come in and talk about what they did. When what they actually did was take over projects started by Lakewoodites.

This is what always amazes me.

FWIW


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