Can we learn from Youngstown?

[Bryan Schwegler]

Not that we're as bad off as Youngstown, but I found this CNN article on Youngstown's 2010 plan to manage shrinkage pretty interesting.

Are there things we can learn from what they're doing?

Is it better to plan for growth or shrinkage?

I guess in my view, I think shrinkage at least for the near to mid term is probably most likely...all demographic data shows that trend. Should we focus on being a better, smaller city?

The Incredible Shrinking City: Youngstown, OH

[John Guscott]

Bryan - thanks for posting the link.

As I read the article, I wondered exactly what infrastructure is feasible for Lakewood to downsize?

Ytown was/is much more geographically spread out than ultra-dense Lakewood. A lot of that city's streets had high vacancy percentages, wheareas Lakewood's occupancy is usually "tight", and the vacancies are scattered around.

Also, Lakewood does a fair job of re-purposing retail, even though most of the boutique type stores that populate the lower retail level of apartments come and go frequently. It would be nice to see some of those retail spaces "modernized" to be able to pull in some national retail presence, though.

I don't know - I definitely think what YT is doing is right for them, but I am wondering what things Lakewood can do that would have similar impact on the reduction of infrastructure...

One surprising thing I learned from the article is that YT's pop is only 80,000! Without bothering to check my facts, I'm pretty sure that puts it in league with Parma's size.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Bryan

You have to excuse me if I sound a little rough on this.

Have you been to Youngstown?

How does it compare with Lakewood?

As people always seem anxious for me to make a point.

"Safe and Clean."

The rest will take care of itself.

Don't manage the decline by enforcing the notion or speeding it up.

Now if you are speaking of Cleveland. Let Lakewood annex from W45th West, we can declare Jay Westbrook our Ward 5 Councilman.

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[Bryan Schwegler]

John,
I think I'm more thinking of our miles and miles of retail rather than residential. How about just outright bulldozing some of it and turning it into green space? I'm not so sure about savings on infrastructure, but can we create more open space by removing some very outdated and in some cases, derelict, storefront space?

Jim,
Yes, I've been to Youngstown, and yes, I agree, it's not Lakewood. However, you don't need to be so defensive. Lakewood is not going to be 80,000 people again nor are we ever going to need miles and miles of outdated storefront with little to no parking available.

Just because we're not 100% identical doesn't mean we can't take ideas from others. If that was the case, then you should just shut down any of the plans to spread the Observer model any further because what's the point, no one else is Lakewood.

But whether Lakewood could learn anything from Y'town's 2010 plan or not, the one thing we can learn from them is to continue to think outside the box and take chances.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jim,
Yes, I've been to Youngstown, and yes, I agree, it's not Lakewood. However, you don't need to be so defensive. Lakewood is not going to be 80,000 people again nor are we ever going to need miles and miles of outdated storefront with little to no parking available.

Just because we're not 100% identical doesn't mean we can't take ideas from others. If that was the case, then you should just shut down any of the plans to spread the Observer model any further because what's the point, no one else is Lakewood.

Bryan

I warned you. This is not directed at you, but...

It is not this post it is hundreds of posts here and around the city, county, state from ???????? which really seem set on giving Lakewood a black eye. Then we have the general Malaise that seem to be running rampant on this board and it really has me wondering, what are people missing, how can some be so blind.

We have people coming to Lakewood to copy and learn from us. Why again are we rediscovering the Hunter Morrison philosophy of managing decline? Maybe I am just running into different groups than you, but Lakewood is kicking ass. Just spoke with a mother and daughter that was transferred to Cleveland from Seattle. Her daughter works for the Cleveland Clinic. Through some investigation, including the Observer her and her daughter decided on Lakewood, and the Clinic helped them make that decision.

So, cities we thought we cooler than us, and many others are turning to Lakewood to find out how we are doing it. We have Lakewood's largest employer and maybe Cleveland's hiring people and suggesting Lakewood. You can get a place on the lake for $500,000 and we are looking at managing decline... Why?

As for the Observer, you thing you should understand is that if it has Observer on it and it is from Observer Inc. there is really only one solid rule. "Must be open to all willing to use their real name." As there is ZERO agenda here, we have no agenda anywhere else.

AGS is working with magazines and papers that are keeping their names without Observer in it, and just moving to Lakewood based AGS Software.

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[Bryan Schwegler]

Jim, I agree, I think Lakewood is special, it's why I chose to buy a house here, it's why I'm glad I've grown up here my entire life.

But, I have two questions for you:

- Do you honestly believe Lakewood will ever again be a city of 80,000 people again?

- Do you honestly believe we really need as much retail storefront space as we have?

You view downsizing as a bad thing, I don't. You equate it with decline, I equate it with the possibility of reinvention.

I see nothing wrong with living up the realization that we're going to be smaller....that doesn't preclude us from continuing to be special or from getting even better than we are.

Maybe I'm wrong, but all census and demographic data continue to point to declining population in this region of the country. We can either plan for that or ignore it.

[Jim O'Bryan]

But, I have two questions for you:

- Do you honestly believe Lakewood will ever again be a city of 80,000 people again?

- Do you honestly believe we really need as much retail storefront space as we have?

I believe that it was 71,000 was it really 80,000? I am being realistic when I say no. The era of the massive family is pretty much over. But I bet we can get it back to a healthy 60,000.

As for the storefronts, there is no reason for them to be empty. None. That is an interesting question with some interesting answers. I saw a plan floated a couple years ago that addressed that and more. However, it never went farther.

Downsizing is not a bad thing. I think another interesting idea is to marry lots north of the tracks. Allow people to group 3-4 lots and rebuild. However Lakewood has nothing but up, we just cannot count on any help from the east. The infrastructure can support 70,000 - 80,000 so why not shoot for it.

Imagine what this city would be like Safer and Clean? Who would not want to live here?

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[Bryan Schwegler]

As for the storefronts, there is no reason for them to be empty. None. That is an interesting question with some interesting answers. I saw a plan floated a couple years ago that addressed that and more. However, it never went farther.

My only issue is that NE Ohio in general was waaaay more retail space than is needed. I can't imagine a time when all of Lakewood's storefront space is filled up, especially given it's overall age and condition.

I'm sure there are better uses if some of that was torn down. Why not take two areas of Madison and Detroit and concentrate retail and renaissance in those areas and redevelop the rest as another purpose?

What was the gist of the plan you saw to revitalize the storefronts? I'm just not able to think of a viable scenario.

However Lakewood has nothing but up, we just cannot count on any help from the east. The infrastructure can support 70,000 - 80,000 so why not shoot for it.

But there's also nothing wrong with having a plan B. What if we don't go to 70,000 but rather head towards 40,000?

Imagine what this city would be like Safer and Clean? Who would not want to live here?

People that want warmer weather, people that want to live in a more progressive state, or people who want to live by the ocean. All things we can't do anything about.

All kidding aside, I completely agree with your last point.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Bryan

For me it becomes somewhat easy.

Think back to the 1800s, this is where we are headed for a number of reasons, many good, many bad.

Lakewood is so lucky, as we are one of a few that can really cash in. With the emergence of the internet and software like my company creates, that allow companies to work from anywhere anytime.Will allow people to work from home. Now think about it on hundreds of levels, at every economic level.

All Lakewood has to do, is what it has always done. Be the best place to live and raise a family. A nice small walkable city with flavor and art. The kind of place you can walk to one of the great libraries in America, with top class beautiful schools, with hundreds of nice small stores, that are incubators for future chains and franchises.

We are missing a major opportunity, and it is slipping through our fingers.

To quote Steve Davis' uncle, "It ain't rocket surgery."

If the city were to do nothing else but clean and safer, would you be happy?


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[c. dawson]

well, one problem is that we can't turn back the clock ... I don't know if Lakewood will ever be as big population-wise as it has been in the past. Part of it may be because the "American Dream" has changed to a degree. While those of us here may agree that Lakewood is a cool place to live, a very walkable city, etc., we may not see everything clearly. Because even with these amenities (and throw in the new library and the new schools), the population isn't flocking back here. Yes, we do attract new people, like my wife and I ... but anyone seeing population trends can see quite clearly that folks are still flocking to the outer-ring suburbs.

In some cases, it's because those folks want bigger houses than what Lakewood has to offer ... few Lakewood houses have the enormous "Great Room" that the McMansions in the outer ring 'burbs have.

Or they want bigger lots ... I'm fond of my tiny plot of land, because it only takes me 10 minutes tops to cut my front and back yard with my manual mower, but others want more space. They DON'T want to be able to reach out and touch their neighbor's house ... or hear what goes on in their neighbor's house because it's so close by.

Some folks don't even want a porch, because their McMansion is air-conditioned, and they're inside, in the back of the house, in their Great Room, watching TV or playing video games, not sitting out on the porch and watching the world go by.

And while we do have a lot of retail space on Detroit and Madison, some people just don't want the inconvenience of having to find parking on the street, behind the store in a tiny lot (if available), or on a side street; they want a big parking lot right out front. They want the big box stores, not the small independents.

And finally, there is also a perception of safety, and even some thinly-veiled racial fears ... because we're on the border with Cleveland, some folks fear that "those people" in Cleveland (who in their views always tend to be a different color than they are), are spilling over the borders into the inner-ring suburbs, causing crime and mayhem, and slowly turning places like Lakewood into "the next East Cleveland." So some folks are white-flighting it out to the outer-ring suburbs.

Wrong-minded folks? It's easy for us to say yes. Personally, you couldn't pay me enough to live out in the outer ring. I grew up out there, and it's duller than dirt, blander than Applebee's. But I'm in the minority. And we can thump on our chests all we want and say how wonderful it is to live in Lakewood ... but the real truth of the matter is that folks are flocking to Avon, Westlake, Solon, Twinsburg, and Strongsville.

We should not stick our heads in the sand, and wish for a return to the "good old days" in the past (though if you can actually stomach Dick Feagler's columns any more, that's all he goes on about). I do not believe Lakewood is in a decline as some view it, but I do believe that the wants and needs of a lot of folks today have changed, and a place like Lakewood no longer fits those needs. That said, it still fits the needs of many folks, so we still get newcomers, and we should embrace that. But we maybe do need to look at the lessons from Youngstown, and see if there are things that can be applied to Lakewood.

Maybe we do have a bit too much housing stock ... would it be better to have too much and have a lot of empty houses sitting around, targeted by thieves for their copper pipes and not adding anything to property values? Or perhaps eventually removing some houses, demolishing them and turning their lots into neighborhood gardens, extra parking lots (on some streets, this would be a godsend, because of the folks who have no room except to park on the street), or let neighbors buy the empty properties to expand their yards? Would it be better to continue to have so many empty storefronts (and there's plenty I've seen that have been empty for the two years I've lived in Lakewood, and I suspect they've been empty even longer), in the hopes that someday, perhaps someone might possibly start up a new business in them? Or perhaps remove some stores, in favor of more parking for the other nearby businesses, or pocket parks to add greenspace to the city?

Would some carefully managed downsizing, in terms of excess housing and retail space, benefit the city or hamper the city?

It's a hot issue. Jim, I'm sure you'd argue that it would hamper the city, while there are others on the board who would argue the other way. But perhaps this is a time to begin the dialogue, because I honestly think that even with rising gas costs, we're not going to suddenly see people rushing back to Lakewood and filling up empty houses, or empty storefronts suddenly becoming business incubators. And if we begin the dialogue now, and start to address this issue, then if things continue over the next decade and into the future, the city will be at the forefront of dealing with it, rather than really sliding into a decline.

No, we'll never be another Youngstown ... the decline in population there has been traumatic ... from a high of 170,000 in 1930 to the current 80,000 ... but they are addressing it as best as they can, and I think ultimately they'll remain a smaller city, but they have the strong possibility of becoming a better city as a smaller city. Their efforts, even if derided as the "Hunter Morrison school of development" are innovative, because it represents actually addressing reality in a proactive way.

Someday, Lakewood may also have to address this ... I suggest it's better to start talking about it now, learning lessons that can be learned, and avoiding pitfalls that other cities have learned through hard experience, so that in the end, this remains a desirable place to live and work, even if it is a smaller place to live and work.

[Dee Martinez]

The above is an extremely thoughtful post, and I could not agree more.

If the Cleveland area was on the verge of a boom maybe Lakewood would be too but any sort of realism says thats just not going to happen.
As we look down the road, would we rather have 45,000 people who are financially secure (or at least optimistic) living stable lives in good, apppropriately valued housing and possibly working nearby? Or do we want an extra 10,000 who are just biding their time between evictions, living in rapidly deteriorating apartments and placing ever greater demands on services?

Sure, Lakewood is a nice place to start a web-based company. But is it any better than Charlotte or Oregon? If all I need is a computer to make a living, what does Lakewood have that every other dot on the map doesnt? I can find other places that are cheaper, warmer, better situated, better connected, and just as friendly (if thats what I care about)
What Im saying is that "smaller Lakewood" and "better Lakewood" are not mutually exclusive concepts. That will only happen if we cling to the idea that its only a matter of time before people start coming back.
You will always be able to find a person who moves here because they like it better than some place else, but thats anecdotal not statistical evidence, There is absolutely no evidence on the horizons that points to anything but a smaller Cleveland area in general, and that includes Lakwood. Im sorry but thats true,

[Jim O'Bryan]

It's a hot issue. Jim, I'm sure you'd argue that it would hamper the city, while there are others on the board who would argue the other way. But perhaps this is a time to begin the dialogue, because I honestly think that even with rising gas costs, we're not going to suddenly see people rushing back to Lakewood and filling up empty houses, or empty storefronts suddenly becoming business incubators. And if we begin the dialogue now, and start to address this issue, then if things continue over the next decade and into the future, the city will be at the forefront of dealing with it, rather than really sliding into a decline.

CD

It is a hot topic and one that deserves conversation. That is all I have ever asked for is conversation. In the end, it will be what it will be.

The question I ask both you, Dee and anyone is...

1) If you were going to live in the area and open a store why not in a city that has a group willing to pay your rent?

2) If you are moving to a city to live and work, why not one with a low cost of living, convenient, surrounded by parks and fresh water. In a city that at best takes 20 minutes to drive from one side to the other?

For starters?


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[c. dawson]

[quote="Jim O'Bryan

2) If you are moving to a city to live and work, why not one with a low cost of living, convenient, surrounded by parks and fresh water. In a city that at best takes 20 minutes to drive from one side to the other?

For starters?


.[/quote]

Well, I think those are good reasons to move somewhere, but you just can't tell with some people. Tell me why people are flocking to Arizona? With 90+ degree days (even with no humidity, 90 is still pretty darn hot!), and living in a DESERT???? One of these days, the water's gonna run out, and they're not going to be having a good time! But yet, people still live there ... people still flock to urban areas like Boston, Philadelphia, Seattle, Chicago and LA, which are wonderful places to live, but have prices that are just out of this world ... my brother in Chicago paid about 700,000 for a house SMALLER than mine in Lakewood ... and because the housing bubble was so hot then, he essentially made an offer after seeing the house for 5 minutes ... in the dark. It's absolutely insane ... yet people live there.

I think Cleveland as a region has wonderful amenities, and Lakewood's one of the best places to live in the Cleveland area ... but others obviously do not agree, because they're voting with their wallets and their home purchases ... so it leaves a city that today is built for a larger population, and a design layout largely influenced by a mass transit system (streetcars) that no longer exist and will likely never return.

So it raises the question, how do we adapt? We have an awful lot of apartments and houses in Lakewood ... do we have too much? Do we need them all? Or would more greenspace make it a more attractive city to attract new residents? We have a lot of retail space, but nowhere near enough parking for those retail spaces, which doesn't seem to affect some entrepreneurs, but does affect others (who fear that opening a business here wouldn't succeed without more parking for potential customers). Do we just leave all those retail spaces as they are, hoping that they'll fill up, or perhaps at some point do we address the issue by consolidating what we have, strategically removing some of them and utilizing the space for parking for the others? That's not easy, but what would benefit the future growth of Lakewood?

I guess it's one thing for us to bat this around in an online forum, but is anyone at a higher level thinking about these issues? What will the future of Lakewood hold? What happens if Lakewood 50 years from now only has 40,000 or less population? But still has the same amount of houses? Home ownership declines, but more and more rentals fill the town ... with possibly people who don't care about the upkeep of their house, or the well-being of their neighborhoods?

I sure don't have the answers, I'm just raising questions. But it seems that in this region, our population is declining, even with all the advantages Cleveland has ... so it needs to be addressed, so that if this continues, which it seems likely to do, it can be managed so that the overall region remains a good place to live ... and possibly can be a BETTER place to live, with more regionalized services (to save municipalities money), more green space, a better transportation network, and maybe some day, sports teams that actually win championships. Maybe not in our lifetimes, or our children's lifetimes, or in our children's children's lifetimes, but someday.

[Jim O'Bryan]

CD

Every answer we seek are in your questions.

We cannot be everything to everyone. We can even go farther and ask how much do we need to change a city that already has attracted or kept 50,000 semi contented? Do we change the city to have the go kart track and driving range I want? Where do we put my Svenson's? Or do we go with what brought people here? We have limited funds. Do we try for a strip mall, or even hotel? Or do we make the streets, beautiful, safe and green? Do turn Kaufman Park sideways for two more strip mall chains, or do we make Kaufamn Park a showcase like Cain Park that can be enjoyed by all and make money? Do we change traffic patterns to get more people in from outside, or do we change traffic patterns to make the streets safer for all that live inside?

I think it would be interesting to see how many stores are within 5 minutes, 10 minutes, even 20 minutes. Compare those drive times to that of other cities to the same amount of stores. I think it would be interesting.

One of the secrets for surviving I have to think is work with what you got. Another secret would seem to be what makes us different from the rest we are competing with. We are not competing with Phoenix, Charleston, Miami, dare I even say Columbus and Akron? Our competition is within driving distances. Our targets should be both coasts.

Clean safe rentals in a clean safe city will always be demand. Please notice I did not say affordable. People, families, small businesses will always need clean safe walkable cities. with the money tightening that is sure to come rentals will be gold. Especially on clean safe streets.

This is why long before the election we put out the Mantra, "Clean and Safe."

Lakewood, still a great place to live and raise a family.

Somethings, if showcased properly, never goes out of style.

There are people that have thought of many of these things, and penciled in many of the great successes of the past 5 years. To my knowledge they have not spit out a clunker yet. Things they were talking about 5 years ago, have come true, so closely to what was predicted it would scare you.

Right now, before we plan tomorrow, I would like to see clean and safe.


Baby steps.


FWIW

[Bill Call]

There is absolutely no evidence on the horizons that points to anything but a smaller Cleveland area in general, and that includes Lakwood. Im sorry but thats true,

I agree.

Which to me points out the insanity of the current economic policies of our County Government.

They propose to spend billions of taxpayer dollars to encourage people to move where they don't want to live (downtown) and encourage people to leave where they currently live (Lakewood). The end result of that policy? Destruction of existing neighborhoods in the hope that somehow the artificial neighborhoods will cause people from San Francisco to move to Cleveland.

Every taxpayer dollar spent on downtown housing and development is a stab in the back for the City of Lakewood. If you can buy a new tax payer subsidized highrise downtown why move to the Gold Coast?

What can Youngstown teach us? That sometimes Cities die a natural death. Of course, sometimes they are murdered.