robert,
I've gotten the same resentment as well about the plaza.
Other than parking I don't know what is wrong with it.
Every one of those stores gets used...
Kaufman/Foxx survey
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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Ivor Karabatkovic
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- Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:45 am
- Contact:
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Danielle Masters
- Posts: 1139
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:39 am
- Location: Lakewood, OH
Thanks for that graph Tim. I knew this country had a issue with mass consumerism, I just didn't realize it was that out of whack with the rest of the world. And I agree with Joe don't pave over a park for more retail, do something a little more creative. There are about seven empty storefronts a few blocks down Detroit and an empty storefront where a furniture store was. I just have some major issues with removing greenspace, especially when it's space my kids use. Maybe when they are older I won't feel that way, but I certainly hope not. BTW I spent the weekend scrapbooking and came across some cute pictures of my son's 6th birthday in 2005. We brought all his friends to Little Links. I would love to have more memories like that, but oh well guess it's not meant to be.
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Christine Gordillo
- Posts: 195
- Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:28 pm
I always thought Little Links was one of the little gems in Lakewood
that helped make our city special. My kids loved going up there on
warm summer evenings. For my husband and I, what a great little
spot to kill an hour with the kids and do so on a few bucks. A trip
to DQ after and our evening was complete. Like you Danielle, great
memories with now, unfortunatley, one less place locally to make them.
that helped make our city special. My kids loved going up there on
warm summer evenings. For my husband and I, what a great little
spot to kill an hour with the kids and do so on a few bucks. A trip
to DQ after and our evening was complete. Like you Danielle, great
memories with now, unfortunatley, one less place locally to make them.
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
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Kate McCarthy
- Posts: 481
- Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:25 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Okay...the US has lots more room...but does Lakewood? We are at nine plus thousand persons per square mile and only 5.6 square miles. I don't see Bay at 4.5 square miles and only a little over 3,000 persons per square mile falling over themselves to give over their precious park land for some pie in the sky development.
Who are we trying to be? Westlake comprises of 16 square miles...Avon, 21 square miles. Both have population densities of 1,964 and 755 persons per square mile, respectively. If we want big box stores...forget about it. If we want small boutique stores...let's market our built environment. For those that wonder why many think Marc's Plaza (oh, excuse me...Lakewood Town Center) is less than promised...for one...it promised green space (see Sinagra Park). It promised a premiere anchor store (see Marcs?). I say it's a wash. Virginia lost access to Detroit and traffic is pushed to Elmwood. We lost Detroit street side interest. We gained some nice stores and Marcs. And for those that say it replaced abandoned store fronts...what shop wants to take up residence in a soon to be demolished hunk of property? The old Burrows would have been leased if not for the upcoming redevelopment. Key Bank moved into the old post office, the fire department moved down the road, but the gain for the hype was minimal. I don't mind Marcs but not in the town center...maybe where the Dollar Store on Sloane is located... that would be a good location.
After seeing the wonderful store fronts of Rosewood Place given over to a tenant from across the street...the Military Recruiting Station...I don't see great promise in redevelopment at Kauffman Park. I repeat myself. We cannot afford to lose a significant city park (that is used, though it's being framed as useless) to a potentially lame development. The impact of the disappointment of Rosewood Place is out there. It does not serve as a catalyst for any complementary retail development and serves as a depressive anchor for the area. Mixed use development? Who really wants to live above a Military Recruitment Center?
Who are we trying to be? Westlake comprises of 16 square miles...Avon, 21 square miles. Both have population densities of 1,964 and 755 persons per square mile, respectively. If we want big box stores...forget about it. If we want small boutique stores...let's market our built environment. For those that wonder why many think Marc's Plaza (oh, excuse me...Lakewood Town Center) is less than promised...for one...it promised green space (see Sinagra Park). It promised a premiere anchor store (see Marcs?). I say it's a wash. Virginia lost access to Detroit and traffic is pushed to Elmwood. We lost Detroit street side interest. We gained some nice stores and Marcs. And for those that say it replaced abandoned store fronts...what shop wants to take up residence in a soon to be demolished hunk of property? The old Burrows would have been leased if not for the upcoming redevelopment. Key Bank moved into the old post office, the fire department moved down the road, but the gain for the hype was minimal. I don't mind Marcs but not in the town center...maybe where the Dollar Store on Sloane is located... that would be a good location.
After seeing the wonderful store fronts of Rosewood Place given over to a tenant from across the street...the Military Recruiting Station...I don't see great promise in redevelopment at Kauffman Park. I repeat myself. We cannot afford to lose a significant city park (that is used, though it's being framed as useless) to a potentially lame development. The impact of the disappointment of Rosewood Place is out there. It does not serve as a catalyst for any complementary retail development and serves as a depressive anchor for the area. Mixed use development? Who really wants to live above a Military Recruitment Center?
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John Guscott
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:25 am
- Location: Lakewood OH
Speaking as a parent of three small children, and also as someone who prefers not to have to leave Lakewood for necessities, nor luxuries, I have no problem with new retail space being a component of a redevelopment of the Kauffman Park area. It is centrally located and could be a popular spot for all ages, given the right mix of stores, restaurants and park/playground space.
For retail, I wouldn't mind seeing the following: a full service, modernized drug store (DDM or CVS), one or two mid-scale clothiers such as Old Navy, Filene's Basement or something similar, a good mix of specialty shops, some nice restaurants (perhaps Sakura would stay, maybe a couple ethnic and/or mom & pop places, and maybe a "fun" chain, such as a Johnny Rockets or the like). For recreation, why not a mini-scale, modern movie theater (maybe a three-plex, with stadium seating)? I think that a modern movie theater in the center of town could be a big draw.
Perhaps the development could adopt a similar layout to the Bunts/Detroit Ave Tops area, but less concrete at the Detroit threshold. In other words, the retail and parking space would be set back, but with access to the retail from both Detroit and Andrews. Then, where the current retail strip exists, have a park/playground/public gathering space, drawing inspiration from Lincoln Park in Tremont or other nicely-laid-out mixed-purpose park space. It would be great for families to have an opportunity to bring the kids down to the park or the library across the street (with it's expanded Children's section opening soon), while the other spouse runs the errands, etc.
With such a busy hub of recreational and shopping opportunities, I would hope the existing Detroit Ave storefront spaces along "Main Street" would benefit, and the whole surrounding area would be a more beneficial location for business.
Probably just wishful thinking...
For retail, I wouldn't mind seeing the following: a full service, modernized drug store (DDM or CVS), one or two mid-scale clothiers such as Old Navy, Filene's Basement or something similar, a good mix of specialty shops, some nice restaurants (perhaps Sakura would stay, maybe a couple ethnic and/or mom & pop places, and maybe a "fun" chain, such as a Johnny Rockets or the like). For recreation, why not a mini-scale, modern movie theater (maybe a three-plex, with stadium seating)? I think that a modern movie theater in the center of town could be a big draw.
Perhaps the development could adopt a similar layout to the Bunts/Detroit Ave Tops area, but less concrete at the Detroit threshold. In other words, the retail and parking space would be set back, but with access to the retail from both Detroit and Andrews. Then, where the current retail strip exists, have a park/playground/public gathering space, drawing inspiration from Lincoln Park in Tremont or other nicely-laid-out mixed-purpose park space. It would be great for families to have an opportunity to bring the kids down to the park or the library across the street (with it's expanded Children's section opening soon), while the other spouse runs the errands, etc.
With such a busy hub of recreational and shopping opportunities, I would hope the existing Detroit Ave storefront spaces along "Main Street" would benefit, and the whole surrounding area would be a more beneficial location for business.
Probably just wishful thinking...
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Kate McCarthy
- Posts: 481
- Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:25 pm
- Location: Lakewood
John,
I agree...but wishful thinking. There isn't that much land there...even when giving up the park.
Developable land in Lakewood is tight. We really don't have much left over space. I like Ed Fitzgerald's idea of the city banking properties to create more parking to support the retail in the existing built environment. Trashing the built environment (and worse, a park) isn't the most efficient way to bring in new retail. Besides, the current owner of Drug Mart plaza has been found to have environmental infractions related to asbestos resulting from their demolition of property in Pennsylvania Since they now seem to set up LLCs to shield their identity and liability, who knows how many other infractions they may or may have not incurred elsewhere.
I agree...but wishful thinking. There isn't that much land there...even when giving up the park.
Developable land in Lakewood is tight. We really don't have much left over space. I like Ed Fitzgerald's idea of the city banking properties to create more parking to support the retail in the existing built environment. Trashing the built environment (and worse, a park) isn't the most efficient way to bring in new retail. Besides, the current owner of Drug Mart plaza has been found to have environmental infractions related to asbestos resulting from their demolition of property in Pennsylvania Since they now seem to set up LLCs to shield their identity and liability, who knows how many other infractions they may or may have not incurred elsewhere.
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Kevin Galvin
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:35 am
[quote="Kate McCarthy Who really wants to live above a Military Recruitment Center?[/quote]
Actually, for a retired couple or someone who would love the thought of having the downstairs neighbor quiet every night, living above the recruitment center would be terrific.
Getting a baby to sleep at night would have to be easier than living over a bar or upstairs from a family with teenagers.
Actually, for a retired couple or someone who would love the thought of having the downstairs neighbor quiet every night, living above the recruitment center would be terrific.
Getting a baby to sleep at night would have to be easier than living over a bar or upstairs from a family with teenagers.
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Tim Liston
- Posts: 752
- Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:10 pm
Stephen, the numbers on that graph are per capita, and have nothing to do with geographic size. My guess is that we in the U.S. have more unoccupied retail space than the Europeans have occupied retail space, again per capita. We simply don't need to build more retail space. As JO points out, we are 8 minutes from Westgate (or whatever it's called now), 15 minutes from Cracker Park.
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Joe Whisman
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 9:06 pm
I heard this a.m. on NPR that the average American generates 4lbs of thrash a day. Ok, if Lakewood has 51,000 residents then that is 204,000lbs per day. I would say we don't need more shopping. This number will continue to go up. We need to invest in our parks and make them nice. We need to invest in our planet so there will be something left besides trash. Shopping=trash.
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
Tim did you notice the smiley faces?Tim Liston wrote:Stephen, the numbers on that graph are per capita, and have nothing to do with geographic size. My guess is that we in the U.S. have more unoccupied retail space than the Europeans have occupied retail space, again per capita. We simply don't need to build more retail space. As JO points out, we are 8 minutes from Westgate (or whatever it's called now), 15 minutes from Cracker Park.
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Chris Karel
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:16 pm
1. Do you think that this park is currently safe?
No! I wouldn't take my boys there to play!
2 Do you think that this park is currently well maintained?
Not sure!
3. Would Kaufman Park would be improved if it were moved to the forefront, adjacent to Detroit Ave?
It would depend on how it was done?
4. Have you or your family members used this park in the past 3 months?
Yes, for an adult softball game.
5. Does a park require playground equipment?
Not necessarily.
6. Do planters qualify as green space?
I don't think so. I think of green space as a place where a kite could be flown, or a soccer/baseball/football game could be played by kids and/or adults. As a soccer coach, local space is a premium. That is to say, space that is not rutted and potholed. i.e. Cove, Madison, Lakewood park
And for the fill in question, where would you suggest replacing Foxx field and where would you suggest moving it to?
I think this answer requires more analysis. Is there a place in the city this could be moved to? I'm not sure. I tend to think that if there was a place this thread would not exist. Has the city looked into buying foreclosed properties in a clustered area with the idea of turning that space into a park.
No! I wouldn't take my boys there to play!
2 Do you think that this park is currently well maintained?
Not sure!
3. Would Kaufman Park would be improved if it were moved to the forefront, adjacent to Detroit Ave?
It would depend on how it was done?
4. Have you or your family members used this park in the past 3 months?
Yes, for an adult softball game.
5. Does a park require playground equipment?
Not necessarily.
6. Do planters qualify as green space?
I don't think so. I think of green space as a place where a kite could be flown, or a soccer/baseball/football game could be played by kids and/or adults. As a soccer coach, local space is a premium. That is to say, space that is not rutted and potholed. i.e. Cove, Madison, Lakewood park
And for the fill in question, where would you suggest replacing Foxx field and where would you suggest moving it to?
I think this answer requires more analysis. Is there a place in the city this could be moved to? I'm not sure. I tend to think that if there was a place this thread would not exist. Has the city looked into buying foreclosed properties in a clustered area with the idea of turning that space into a park.
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Stephen Eisel
- Posts: 3281
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:36 pm
Tim, the title of the graph is "Square Feet Retail per Person" I looked up the sq km for each country and posted them to be a smart @@@. I would much rather see a technology park built then more retail..Tim Liston wrote:Stephen, the numbers on that graph are per capita, and have nothing to do with geographic size. My guess is that we in the U.S. have more unoccupied retail space than the Europeans have occupied retail space, again per capita. We simply don't need to build more retail space. As JO points out, we are 8 minutes from Westgate (or whatever it's called now), 15 minutes from Cracker Park.
Disclaimer: all retail but an IKEA
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Dave Mechenbier
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:38 am
Wow where to start. If nothing else this thread brings up the diversity of visions for the city.
When our kids were younger, we used Kauffman alot, in all seasons. The size of the entire park is what makes it so valuable as a recreation area. It has adequate parking to host adult softball, enough grass area to host organized games on the diamond and at the same time kids can
play on the playground or use the backstop at the eastern edge. You can even use the field for football games and perfecting part of the golf game.
As far a train safety, if Kauffman may be dangerous because of the proximity to the tracks, you better take a close look at Cove, Merl Bunts and Webb parks. Are we ready to give up on these too? Just think how much safer the "green space" would be for kids if it moved closer to Detroit Ave.
Someone mentioned they wished we had an area for teens to go, rather than having them take the trip to Crocker Park. Yes, something new, with the right blend of stores/activities might work for awhile. But do you really think that a teen with access to a car would rather stay in Lakewood, where horror upon horrors he might be seen by his parents, parents friends, neighbors etc. I don't think so. I think half the allure of Crocker Park is that teens can anonymous there. Hey, maybe we could attract the Westlake/Bay teens here!
What so we expect of our green space? How can it be used? Unless it is large enough, shielded from auto and truck traffic I think all we are going to get is a homogenized green space suitable for photo backgrounds.
Nice but is it worth it?
When our kids were younger, we used Kauffman alot, in all seasons. The size of the entire park is what makes it so valuable as a recreation area. It has adequate parking to host adult softball, enough grass area to host organized games on the diamond and at the same time kids can
play on the playground or use the backstop at the eastern edge. You can even use the field for football games and perfecting part of the golf game.
As far a train safety, if Kauffman may be dangerous because of the proximity to the tracks, you better take a close look at Cove, Merl Bunts and Webb parks. Are we ready to give up on these too? Just think how much safer the "green space" would be for kids if it moved closer to Detroit Ave.
Someone mentioned they wished we had an area for teens to go, rather than having them take the trip to Crocker Park. Yes, something new, with the right blend of stores/activities might work for awhile. But do you really think that a teen with access to a car would rather stay in Lakewood, where horror upon horrors he might be seen by his parents, parents friends, neighbors etc. I don't think so. I think half the allure of Crocker Park is that teens can anonymous there. Hey, maybe we could attract the Westlake/Bay teens here!
What so we expect of our green space? How can it be used? Unless it is large enough, shielded from auto and truck traffic I think all we are going to get is a homogenized green space suitable for photo backgrounds.
Nice but is it worth it?