Watch this

Mark Moran · Post by **Mark Moran** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:36 pm

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/t ... eady-.html

Stephen Eisel · Post by **Stephen Eisel** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:59 pm

Franklin D. Roosevelt put 120,000 Japanese Americans into internment camps in 1942. Could it happen again? Yes

ryan costa · Post by **ryan costa** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:35 pm

Do the Geneva Conventions hold? Does it have to be an official war for the Geneva Conventions to hold? Do prisoners have to be official members of official armies?

I'm willing to try talking Al Queda prisoners out of their convictions. The talk goes something like this: "The middle East is doomed to civil wars and anarchy in the near future of so much over population and so little water. You could wipe the United States off the map tomorrow and it wouldn't save the Middle East. So, just give up and get a job running a convenience store or bowling alley or something in America. It is a helluva lot easier having 8 kids here than there"

Stephen Eisel · Post by **Stephen Eisel** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:42 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hGvQtumNAY

Another great movie clip

Mark Moran · Post by **Mark Moran** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:17 pm

The issue has nothing to do with "talking" terrorists out of their convictions, or for that matter with being kinder and gentler to them. There is a lot that interrogators can do far short of torture that is plenty unfun; and a lot of experts believe torture gets you bad information.

No, the issue has to do with the image we project to the millions of Muslims--and everyone else who suspects us of being the bad guys--who ARENT terrorists. The number of people willing to blow themselves up in the act of killing hundreds or thousands of others is actually quite small, I believe, a tiny fraction of the human population. But they live within a culture that abides them, or encourages them or tolerates them---but could be convinced not to. The pictures from ABu Graibh told those millions, "You see, we really are as phony and gutless and craven as your terrorist leaders tell you---we tout our virtues but when teh chips are down we cave." Thats why the issue of torture is so important.

Stephen Eisel · Post by **Stephen Eisel** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:30 pm

But we punished the individuals involved...

Stephen Eisel · Post by **Stephen Eisel** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:02 pm

No, the issue has to do with the image we project to the millions of Muslims--and everyone else who suspects us of being the bad guys--who ARENT terrorists

Are you talking about the same people that cheered as the WTC's were collapsing?

Stephen Eisel · Post by **Stephen Eisel** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:08 pm

You see, we really are as phony and gutless and craven as your terrorist leaders tell you---we tout our virtues but when teh chips are down we cave." Thats why the issue of torture is so important.

I do not see the terrorist in Iraq rebuilding schools, mosque, roads, power plants and sewage treatment plants. I do not see them the terrorist doing one positive thing in Iraq.

Stephen Eisel · Post by **Stephen Eisel** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:10 pm

http://www.soldiersperspective.us/2007/ ... ts-of-2006

Mark Moran · Post by **Mark Moran** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:07 pm

Yes, Im talking about the "people" who cheered the attack on WTC (whether those TV pictures represent anything like what they average Muslim in the world actually thought or whether it represents an idiosyncratic image caught by television journalists is unknown; you dont know and neither do I.)

As I said, "they could be "convinced not to." Or could have been, if we had not established as policythe abrogation of rights typically held to be normative of American values, regardless of how we punished (the low level sadists in Abu Graigh) who were doing the bidding of their superiors.

Mark Moran · Post by **Mark Moran** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:12 pm

You are also conflating your response to my subject of torture (and its effect on America's image) with what is happening in Iraq, which is impacted by many, many, many other factors. Im in favor of the surge and against leaving (immediately). And yes our guys have accomplished a lot that has been unnoticed.

NOne ofthat has anything to do with my point: the sanction of torture is undoing much of that good, undermining all that we are trying to accomplish.

Stephen Eisel · Post by **Stephen Eisel** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:46 pm

Mark Moran wrote:You are also conflating your response to my subject of torture (and its effect on America's image) with what is happening in Iraq, which is impacted by many, many, many other factors. Im in favor of the surge and against leaving (immediately). And yes our guys have accomplished a lot that has been unnoticed.

NOne ofthat has anything to do with my point: the sanction of torture is undoing much of that good, undermining all that we are trying to accomplish.

No, I am making a point. We punished the people who were involved with Abu Ghraib. The people who attacked us on 9-11 our now heroes for some in the Middle East. I have not read any articles on MEMRI or Al Jazeera about ABu Ghraib in months. Iraqi citizens are now helping the US to hunt down al Qaeda terrorists. So what does that tell you?

Phil Florian · Post by **Phil Florian** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:27 am

I love when people quote or in some way reference the "You can't handle the truth!" speech as if we are too take those words at face value. Context is so important in that scene, though. The point of it was not to say, "See, this general was right because he was able to sell his 'my job is tough' to the court." The point is the opposite. This was a US General who believes, wrongly, that the ends justifies the means. The point of the scene, especially as posted (and not edited to only include the speech as some do) is that we don't care how hard your job is. If you abandon what makes the USA what it is then you are betraying the USA, not defending it. You are a criminal if you act in a criminal manner, regardless of your excuses.

Maybe that was the point when it was posted. Maybe Mark's original post was to support the Willis point of view in that scene, who knows.

A bigger point is that I am surprised no local theaters are producing "A Few Good Men" or "Caine Mutiny" on stage these last couple of years (the former was a play before made into a movie). I love when the arts reflects and challenges real life.

Stephen Eisel · Post by **Stephen Eisel** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:53 am

Phil Florian wrote:I love when people quote or in some way reference the "You can't handle the truth!" speech as if we are too take those words at face value. Context is so important in that scene, though. The point of it was not to say, "See, this general was right because he was able to sell his 'my job is tough' to the court." The point is the opposite. This was a US General who believes, wrongly, that the ends justifies the means. The point of the scene, especially as posted (and not edited to only include the speech as some do) is that we don't care how hard your job is. If you abandon what makes the USA what it is then you are betraying the USA, not defending it. You are a criminal if you act in a criminal manner, regardless of your excuses.

Maybe that was the point when it was posted. Maybe Mark's original post was to support the Willis point of view in that scene, who knows.

A bigger point is that I am surprised no local theaters are producing "A Few Good Men" or "Caine Mutiny" on stage these last couple of years (the former was a play before made into a movie). I love when the arts reflects and challenges real life.

Did you miss the words "another great movie clip" ?????

Phil Florian · Post by **Phil Florian** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:47 am

Stephen Eisel wrote: Did you miss the words "another great movie clip" ?????

Nope.

Watch this

Watch this

yeah