Cancellation of the Debate

[Gary Rice]

Bill,

Though I have often found agreement with you in your recent posts, I can only suggest that those words that you just used:

consensus, compromise, and concession

...are really the final measure of the democratic framework.

Negotiation is the way things are done in a democratic system. In your military model, there is necessarily no negotiation. An order is given by the President of the United States, and down through the ranks it goes, until the order is finally carried out.

Complaining troops may be the result of such top-down decision-making, but wiser officers understand that morale-boosters and incentives also work well to attract and retain troops in the military world. It is my understanding that an incentive of $20,000 in enlistment bonuses has just been offered to prospective new soldiers, for example.

Using your model, would you offer that to city workers?

I think that, if you go over the contract outcomes of the late negotiations with the various unions, you will see that they were by no means unfair to the city.

I am curious though. Exactly how would you do this- if you were mayor? Would you ride in like some general on a horse and attempt to dictate all things financial? If you did so, exactly how far do you think that would get you?

I've dealt with a few people who tried to do that kind of thing, both in a community and in the schools. It ends up costing more for the "big fight" in the long run, than it does to negotiate, which is what we end up doing anyway.

I think that the Mayor has done a fine job working will all sides of this issue.

And though it would take another whole post to respond, I really think that the so-called budget "problem" is way overblown.

Just my opinion...

[Bill Call]

consensus, compromise, and concession

...are really the final measure of the democratic framework.

That's true.

But in the world of the government bureaucracy there really is only an agreement that wages and benefits should always get larger. Which is fine when you have an expanding pie. When the pie is getting smaller the system starts cannibalizing infrastructure.

Do you really believe that consensus, compromise and concession are the measure of the democratic framework?

If you do would you accept:

1. Wage freezes? savings $1.3 million

2. Replacement of sick leave with a long and short term disability policies? savings $1 million

3. Offering a health plan with a reasonable level of co pay and deductible with the employee paying 50% of the premium? Savings $2 million. unless you offer a residency incentive that allows resident City employees to pay only 25% of the premium.

4. Reduction of City staffing levels to the levels of 1990? savings $3 million

Consensus, compromise and concession are a one way street too the bureaucracy. In that sense they are not a measure of the democratic framework but a measure of the dictatorship of the bureaucracy.

My suspicion is that your idea of compromise is that you asked for a 10% raise and settle for a 5% raise. My idea of compromise is that I ask for a 5% cut and settle for a wage freeze.

[Lynn Farris]

consensus, compromise, and concession

Gary you are right - sometimes these are positive things - but sometimes they aren't.

I truly believe that there are some issues on which one can't compromise. Sometimes in my humble opinion it is better to lose than to compromise your beliefs.

What is worth this? At the federal level we have given up way too many liberties in the name of compromise. I think we are in Iraq and continue to be there in the name of concession. I think the compromise of don't ask don't tell is an abomination. Better to have a fight over gay rights in my humble opinion than to compromise on this silly option.

Recently in Ohio we just past a definition of blight to make citizens feel better that blights about every home in Lakewood. This was in the name of compromise - the Senate had a great bill. Now after 2 years we have nothing, but the law makers feel better about it.

Yes, there are things we compromise on - where to hold the debate, who to have as the moderator, when to have it - easy little inconsequential things. But on big issues - I am often impressed when people stand up for what they believe in.

Here in Lakewood - I will never forget Mr. Demro standing up for the kids with the skatepark (yes, DL many others were involved - but he was the most visible.) He didn't compromise and put them off again as they had been year after year. He didn't say - maybe we can go find another location. He said they have been waiting long enough - lets do it. And others finally agreed.

So Gary, while sometimes compromise and concessions are important, sometimes too having a backbone and standing up for what is truly important is too.

JMHO

[Gary Rice]

Lynn and Bill,

First off, wow!

No digging, sliding, one-upping...

Just good solid intellectual discourse.

What a great level of interaction we have arrived at!

Your points are spot on... excellent in fact.

I suppose, like all debates, that logic follows the premise. If people come from differing premises, they may also arrive at differing conclusions with both sides using rock-solid logic in the process.

Since I was a little one, I've always questioned this type of thinking however. How indeed, could two premises arrive at two Truths, when there is but one Truth? One, therefore, must be false, or in some way distorted.

The methodology of win/lose is called the zero-sum game. That is, unfortunately, the nature of our political world.

This might also be said of religion. Many of us will say that we have the only way, and our duty is therefore to advance that faith tradition any way possible.

Accordingly, politics and religion are topics that we do not often hear about most of the time. People just get too upset when discussing them. Their family traditions, core belief systems, and personal interests just get wrapped up that they take offense, even at perceived challenges.

But it does not have to be that way.

I like to examine other points of view, and let them challenge my own, as you two are doing with me.

I also like the old Quaker thought about there being three sides to an argument: Thine, mine and the Truth.

Bill, from the management point of view, your suggestions make sense. In fact, wasn't there a salary freeze negotiated by Mayor George with the police? As for your remark about my settling for the 5% raise if I were in negotiations with you? Well, coming from the world of labor, I'd have to look at whether the cost-of-living was going up and if so? You bet I'd lobby for the best I could get for the workers. That's just my side of the polemical pile. I certainly understand your side, but I have a side too.

To get both sides to agree on anything is tough to do, but Mayor George has repeatedly been able to do so, and in my view, without giving away the family jewels.

I still come back to my original question for you, however. How far should a Chief Executive of a city go to get their way? Consequences for unilateral cuts would almost certainly raise public ire, and cause unfair labor practice charges to be leveled against the city with resultant high fines and penalties.

The public sector is not the private sector. If a city management decides to play one-way hard ball, I would think that there would be expensive legal problems that can arise for that city.

Lynn, I well understand your point on concession and compromise. Many of the great men and women of the past BECAME great precisely for standing up for principles and people, and refusing to bow to unjust tyranny or rules...

Come to think of it, even little old me...well, I'm not saying how great I am, but I do have considerable experience standing up for principles.

(Watch for my column "The Exceptional Grace", where I write about this exact point)

Fundamentally, I like Ed, Ryan, and Tom. They are all bright, articulate, principled people. There is enough of "premise digression" between them to make this race an interesting one for all of us.

[Lynn Farris]

Gary,

Our church offered a class last year I believe on the Lives of Integrity where we looked at exactly these kinds of issues - Martin Luther King, Ghandi, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Rigoberta Menchu. Mandela is another great example. My son did an impressive collection of people who have lives of integrity. I really think we can learn from these people to follow the sign that was at the high school -to do what is right because it is right.

[Gary Rice]

Let's hope our 3 candidates at least get a little inspiration from those others!

[dl meckes]

Here in Lakewood - I will never forget Mr. Demro standing up for the kids with the skatepark (yes, DL many others were involved - but he was the most visible.) He didn't compromise and put them off again as they had been year after year. He didn't say - maybe we can go find another location. He said they have been waiting long enough - lets do it. And others finally agreed.

That's why the Lakewood Skaters Association thanked Mayor George first.

"Lakewood Skatepark is now open! Mayor Tom George and Councilman Ryan Demro presided over the ribbon cutting and Public Square Group was on hand with a demo and some product raffles. Food and drinks provided by the Lakewood Skaters Association. About 200 people showed up to celebrate the park opening and try to get some runs in. Thanks to everyone who came out and to support the park. Thanks to Mayor George, Lakewood City Council and Lakewood City Engineers John Kilgore and Bill Corrigan for making this happen! Check out the photos here.

5/18/2005"

Tom George stood by the skate park from the time he was a councilman and worked hard behind the scenes to inform the public of the change in plans that threatened that park.

And if you ask me, Vince Franz and his family, Stosh & Shelly Burgess, and Jim & Deb O'Bryan, were far more visible than anyone. Perhaps you also missed O'Bryan directing the crowd to "riot over here" so that each tv station could get good pictures.

I understand your support of your candidate, but I disagree with your conclusion.

[Jim O'Bryan]

"Lakewood Skatepark is now open! Mayor Tom George and Councilman Ryan Demro presided over the ribbon cutting and Public Square Group was on hand with a demo and some product raffles. Food and drinks provided by the Lakewood Skaters Association. About 200 people showed up to celebrate the park opening and try to get some runs in. Thanks to everyone who came out and to support the park. Thanks to Mayor George, Lakewood City Council and Lakewood City Engineers John Kilgore and Bill Corrigan for making this happen! Check out the photos here.

As Vince and Stosh wrote that, I would leave it at that. I would say both politicans deserve to put the skatepark on their resumes. Ryan was the squeaky wheel and Mayor Tom George delivered the big signature needed.

Vince Franz and his family, Stosh & Shelly Burgess, were the power, and deserve 75% of the kudos. I believe Danielle Masters was deep into this as well. Deb and I went to a couple meetings and the "riot." The O'Bryan's were there only because of Vince and Stosh.

Vince and I had lunch today, and had me ready to write a check for the bowl, buy a brick and anything else they needed.

Lakewood won, when those families moved to Lakewood. Gold pure gold.

.

[Lynn Farris]

DL and Jim,

There are many very influential people that ultimately got the skatepark built - I take nothing away from any of them. The city is indeed richer with the addition of these families.

Mayor George coordinated the building and his staff worked with the skaters to make it happen.

I have not chosen who I am voting for in the election - so it is a little premature to be talking about my candidate. I have said that none of the 3 running are my perfect candidate and that they all 3 have strengths and weaknesses.

But the vote for or against a skatepark was with council - not the mayor and not with the citizens who I'm sure were influential. Council came out of committee if I remember with a vote of a 6-1. I'm sure many people made calls - but I got a call from Ryan asking me to come to a rally and to attend the next council meeting where the vote would be taken. I do remember Jim holding a sign up at that Rally that said something to the effect of Ryan is right, which after months are fighting with Ryan over the flagpole was big.

We were talking about the virtues of compromise and I personally think that is one of Mayor George's great strengths. I was simply pointing out that sometimes standing alone against 6 other council members is tough and needed - that is one of Ryan's strenghts.

[Kenneth Warren]

I received a call from Ryan as well, urging attendance at the meeting. He must have spent the day or more on the phone to ensure justice and the moral integrity of the city over a promise made to people like Vince and Stosh who were working for years. I remember our conversation. It was a matter of moral principle. And Mayor George was on the right side of the issue as well. I think it is fair to say that as a councilman Ryan worked hard to make sure the Council did not cave. Mayor George showed courage as well. That night at city council was one of the great meetings of all time.

I believe that without Ryan and the Mayor there would be no skatepark. Different formal roles and authorities sure - but courage and leadership from both in the face of a huge crowd to honor a promise.

We owe both a debt.

Kenneth Warren

[Jim O'Bryan]

DL and Jim,

We were talking about the virtues of compromise and I personally think that is one of Mayor George's great strengths. I was simply pointing out that sometimes standing alone against 6 other council members is tough and needed - that is one of Ryan's strenghts.

Lynn

I was merely speaking from my perspective.

I have no children and do not skateboard.

I think I laid it out as you did. Ryan the squeaky wheel, and the Mayor as the heavy hand.

I would point out that it was a rich night for Lakewood and families. The residents, Ryan and the Mayor has said in one voice, "We must keep this promise." It seems like decades ago though.

Also Stosh was the leader when Vince moved to town.

Today at lunch I found out that 5 families have moved here because of the skatepark. I already knew it was a destination, but that was very nice to hear.

.

[dl meckes]

Jim,

You're right, the Masters family was in there campaigning for the park.

Demro was instrumental, but it took a village to sway council's vote on that park.

It's going to take the whole city to help raise the funds to build phase two.