Ron Paul is moving up!!!

[Stephen Eisel]

The most frequent slogans used by the Republicans is that the terrorists "hate our freedom". That cannot be an accurate assessment of the terrorists. Americans - whether they know it or not - define their freedom as the ability to do tankerloads of driving. The bottlenecks to our ability to drive are easy enough to disable or destroy. How many bridges or highway overpasses more than 100 feet long do you drive over every day? How long do they take to build or repair?

So no, the terrorists don't hate our freedom. This isn't a war for our freedom. there is no war on terror. It is a long drawn out policing exercise. Soldiers technically work cheaper than American police officers. We can't really even keep the gangs of Los Angeles constrained, and they have no political goals.

Ted Nugent can personally pick 500,000 Iraqis to execute immediately. Within a year more will drift into the ranks of what we consider terrorists. It is simply a new niche that exists as a natural consequence to what we tout as examples of our success.

I think the term used by the terrorist is Jihad. This is a Holy War according to Osmam bin Laden. So with out freedom of religion how is this not about freedom? We have all been labled infidels by this minority fringe terrorist group. They hate us us for being free thinking infidels. They hate us because of our culture (good or bad). Why is Al Qaeda killing innocent Iraqi civilians?

I dunno. If that was my concern I'd point out Al Queda wasn't trying or succeeding in killing Iraqi civilians before we invaded.
If sectarian violence is a factor in measures of Freedom, there is less freedom in Iraq now than before we invaded. So...in order to view ourselves as succeeding in Iraq it is necessary to not have Freedom being a benchmark of success.

Was Saddam's Prime Minister a Chaldean Catholic? I don't see that kind of religious tolerance in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait.

Here is a good book to read. World On Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability by Amy Chua(she is an American).

Al Qaeda is currently killing Iraqi civilians. They are killing people who are embracing freedom and support the US. The point of the question is to show that yes this about freedom. (what degree of freedom, I am not sure) Kuwait and Saudia Arabia are completely different situations. Neither country was under UN resolution to disarm. Iraq lost its right to be a sovereign nation when it dishonoerd its terms of surrender.

[Lynn Farris]

Ron Paul has several interesting You Tube quotes on Freedom.

I don't think the people in Iraq hate us because of our Freedom - they hate us because we have killed their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters children and relatives. We have injured thousands. General Clark has indicated that you need to talk to people because once your start killing their relatives it is hard to make peace.

The administration's own Home Land Security has indicated that the war has caused recruitment in Terrorists organizations to soar. We aren't winning this war - it is a quagmire in which only more people will die. When we eventually pull out, people will die. We have made a mess, we only make it worse by staying. We might as well get out and let the painful and dangerous healing begin.

However giving up our Freedom because of terrorism is allowing the Terrorists to win and that I believe we all think is not the right solution.

[Stephen Eisel]

Slow but steady progress has been made in Iraq. I only know second hand from people returning from Iraq that the majority of Iraqis appreciate the US effort. It is now the Iraqis who are helping the US in catching many terrorist. This is not a quagmire. Progress is being made on may fronts in Iraq. The growing size of the Iraqis army and police forces are signs that Iraqi will soon be independent. They have a constitution and Iraqis are now participating in the democratic process.

[Mark Crnolatas]

Al Queda kills innocent people because there is nothing to stop them.
They are akin to the Nazis, and kill when they feel like it. The do not care if it is their own people. The same went for the NVA regulars and Cong in "Nam. They kill and do not need a reason.

When Saddam's sons would torture and kill for laughs, it was for the same reason. In Kuwait when Iraqis raped and dismembered women and children the reasons were and are the same.

We in the west cannot grasp their mentality, no matter how any politicos want to spin it.

As long as freedom exists, that mentality wants to end it.

Some things never change.

Mark Allan Crnolatas

[Stephen Eisel]

Al Queda kills innocent people because there is nothing to stop them.
They are akin to the Nazis, and kill when they feel like it. The do not care if it is their own people. The same went for the NVA regulars and Cong in "Nam. They kill and do not need a reason.

When Saddam's sons would torture and kill for laughs, it was for the same reason. In Kuwait when Iraqis raped and dismembered women and children the reasons were and are the same.

We in the west cannot grasp their mentality, no matter how any politicos want to spin it.

As long as freedom exists, that mentality wants to end it.

Some things never change.

Mark Allan Crnolatas

I have great hopes for the religion of Islam. Al Qaeda is a minority representation of the people of the Middle East. Saddam Hussein is not your average Middle East person. The people that I have met from the Middle East through out my life are more like me then Saddam or a member of Al Qaeda. Economic conditons and absolute power create a men like Saddam not his race.

[ryan costa]

Most of the stories of Iraqis committing atrocities in Kuwait have been discredited.

Furthermore there is ample evidence to suggest the U.S. gave implicit approval for Saddam to invade Kuwait. This is not to say we encouraged him to do so. It is to say the entire Kuwait invasion could have been prevented by more honest communications from our own diplomats at the time.

It is well documented that Saddam Hussein began curtailing his sons' powers as their excesses became more widely reported.

The net human rights abuses in Iraq are generally less than the aggregate human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait. Iraq had women lawyers, doctors, soldiers, etc. The chicks could even wear pants there. The different sects mostly got along with each other. they lived in the same neighborhoods, went to wedding parties together, worked together. Those are the conditions necessary before any talk of moving towards demcracy can be taken seriously. Those are the conditions that have rapidly disappeared since the invasion.

The Middle East is a giant messed up place. It is nice to want to try changing that. When it is blatantly obvious that this will fail, you shouldn't try changing that. How has it failed? It has failed exactly how George Bush Sr. said it would in his autobiography.

[Stephen Eisel]

http://www.worldaudit.org/countries/kuwait.htm
Kuwait
Topics Range Ranking
World Democracy Audit overall ranking 1-150 88
Political Rights 1-7 4
Civil Liberties 1-7 4 p
Press Freedom 0-150 82
Corruption 0-145 36

http://www.worldaudit.org/countries/iraq.htm
Iraq

Topics Range Ranking
World Democracy Audit overall ranking 1-150 127
Political Rights 1-7 6
Civil Liberties 1-7 6q
Press Freedom 0-150 118
Corruption 0-145 143

http://www.worldaudit.org/countries/saudi-arabia.htm
Saudi Arabia

Topics Range Ranking
World Democracy Audit overall ranking 1-150 122
Political Rights 1-7 7
Civil Liberties 1-7 6
Press Freedom 0-150 135
Corruption 0-145 57

Looks like I'd rather live in Kuwait! Saddam was broke after the Iran Iraq war. He was invading Kuwait regardless of world opinion. The US did not give him the go ahead. They basically told him it was an Arab problem. Again, Iraq is different from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Neither country was under UN resolution to dis-arm. Iraq lost its right to be a sovereign nation when it dishonoerd its terms of surrender.

http://www.un.int/usa/sres-iraq.htm

The Security Council,

Recalling all its previous relevant resolutions, in particular its resolutions 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990, 686 (1991) of 2 March 1991, 687 (1991) of 3 April 1991, 688 (1991) of 5 April 1991, 707 (1991) of 15 August 1991, 715 (1991) of 11 October 1991, 986 (1995) of 14 April 1995, and 1284 (1999) of 17 December 1999, and all the relevant statements of its President,

Recalling also its resolution 1382 (2001) of 29 November 2001 and its intention to implement it fully,

Recognizing the threat Iraq’s non-compliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,


Deploring the fact that Iraq has not provided an accurate, full, final, and complete disclosure, as required by resolution 687 (1991), of all aspects of its programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles with a range greater than one hundred and fifty kilometres, and of all holdings of such weapons, their components and production facilities and locations, as well as all other nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to nuclear-weapons-usable material,


13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;

there is a lot more to read

[Stephen Eisel]

http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/index1.php

[Brian Pedaci]

Stephen, if you can find anyone who says that radical Islam isn't a threat to America, I'll give you a cookie.

What the debate in our country is about is finding the most effective way to confront, discredit, contain and disarm that threat.

Going in, guns a-blazing, has only served to drive more people to the extremist view that America is a Crusading, imperialist force. It increases distrust in the US and makes it harder for us to acheive our strategic goals.

If we're going to take a slash-and-burn approach, I'd like it to have some clear point and a defined goal.

Aaaaanyway. There's WAY more to Dr. Paul's platform than being anti-war and anti-interventionist. Let's save the boilerplate military rah-rah stuff for another thread, shall we? Go to ronpaul2008.com and look over his other issues. Maybe there's something else there we can discuss fruitfully.

[Stephen Eisel]

Stephen, if you can find anyone who says that radical Islam isn't a threat to America, I'll give you a cookie.

What the debate in our country is about is finding the most effective way to confront, discredit, contain and disarm that threat.

Going in, guns a-blazing, has only served to drive more people to the extremist view that America is a Crusading, imperialist force. It increases distrust in the US and makes it harder for us to acheive our strategic goals.

If we're going to take a slash-and-burn approach, I'd like it to have some clear point and a defined goal.

Aaaaanyway. There's WAY more to Dr. Paul's platform than being anti-war and anti-interventionist. Let's save the boilerplate military rah-rah stuff for another thread, shall we? Go to ronpaul2008.com and look over his other issues. Maybe there's something else there we can discuss fruitfully.

Have you actually read through the post in this thread? The international community via the UN has been warning Iraq for decades. I am not sure what your definition of "guns a blazing" is??? Or how you arrived at that conclusion??? Is the "guns a blazing" in comparison to other US wars? If you have some fact and figures then please share them.

If we're going to take a slash-and-burn approach, I'd like it to have some clear point and a defined goal.

This was as of 2003

http://defendamerica.mil/iraq/mar2004/tni-1yr0318042.html

Water & Sanitation: Two-thirds of potable water production in Iraq has been restored. Three Baghdad sewage treatment plants will be rehabilitated by October 2004. The rehabilitated plants will treat nearly 800 million liters a day, benefiting 3.5 million people . The Sharkh Dijlah water treatment plant is being rehabilitated and expanded to add 225,000 cubic meters a day to Baghdad's potable water supply by summer 2004. At al Hillah Wastewater Treatment Plant civil restoration is 10 percent complete. In the south, work has begun on 12 of 14 water treatment plants, and 80 percent of the 250 pumps have been delivered.



Electricity: Power generation surpassed 4,400 megawatts of electricity in late 2003. Six months prior, the country could barely generate 300 megawatts. Iraq and Jordan have set up a joint long-term project to construct an electrical distribution grid the two countries will share.



Telecommunications: There are now more than 900,000 telephone subscribers and 225,000 wireless subscribers in Iraq -- a 10% higher subscription rate than before the war.

http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/pdfs/9010-Final-20070608.pdf

U.S. Iraq Relief and Reconstruction Fund (IRRF)
U.S. Reconstruction Spending US$ Billion Apportioned
Electric Sector 4.22
Oil Infrastructure 1.72
Roads, Bridges 0.33
Health Care 0.82
Transportation and Communications 0.46
Water Resources and Sanitation 2.12
Total 9.67

As of May 9 2007. Includes selected sectors of
IRRF I and II. Funds for the above sectors are
95% obligated/78% disbursed.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/goo ... 012605.htm