Voinovich calls for Iraq pullout.

[Joe Whisman]

I am glad to see they are finally getting the message. Last years elections did not do it. We need to start a full court press to end the war. Let's bring our troops home where they belong. No more extended tours of duty.
I am proud of Sen. Voinovich of standing up with the rest of us who say, "End the war!"

[Bill Call]

I am glad to see they are finally getting the message. Last years elections did not do it. We need to start a full court press to end the war. Let's bring our troops home where they belong. No more extended tours of duty.
I am proud of Sen. Voinovich of standing up with the rest of us who say, "End the war!"

Surrender in Iraq and Afghanistan will not end the war against the Jihadist any more than the surrender of France ended the war against National Socialism.

The creation of a new Caliphate centered in Tehran sprawling from the borders of China to the borders the Mediterranean will lead to an explosion of violence that will seriously damage the cause of freedom.
With nuclear weapons and control of the worlds oil the new Caliphate will be a more dangerous enemy than Nazi Germany or Communist Russia.

Totalitarianism is on the rise. China, Russia, Iran, Venezuela and other countries are united in an effort to weaken and isolate the United States and what is left of the free world. This historicaly short interlude of individual freedom may not be able to survive the coming onslaught. The statist and totalinarist never gave up, they just change the color of their shirts. Brown Shirt, Black Shirt, Red Shirt, Green Shirt. Many in the country appear eager to surrender.

I am troubled, but not surprised, by the glee with which some people in this country anticipate the slaughter of millions. They look forward to America's defeat and humiliation as a child looks forward to Christmas.

The question here is when you have abandoned your last friend and stabbed your last ally in the back who will stand with you?

[ryan costa]

the United States is leading itself to weaken itself through its consistent spearheading of economic Globalization and unrestricted free trade.

Iran will not move on Iraq: We've ablely demonstrated that it would turn into a quagmire for them: they aren't nearly as cool as us: what more could they do?

We've also ably demonstrated(our first Gulf War), that the U.S. could flatten Iran's expeditionary war making ability in about a week of actual fighting. Further more, the bulk of the Middle East region would almost universally oppose an incursion by Iran once that got Rolling: They consistently supported Saddam Hussein Iraq's war against Iran from 1980 through 1988.

This concern over foreign policy is inconsistent with anti-statist and pro-small government advocacy.

America's humiliation is in so fool-heartedly occupying Iraq in the first place. It was 1 billion times worse than giving a speech with your fly down. We've got way worse to be embarrassed about at home than the risk of not looking cool in expeditionary wars.

If you're worried about China talk to your favorite retailers and importers. Venezuela is simply a nation that liberated itself from the totalitarian rule of its ivory tower oil-company reared puppetmasters--Hugo Chavez won popular elections: are you against democracy?

[Bill Call]

Iran will not move on Iraq: We've ablely demonstrated that it would turn into a quagmire for them: they aren't nearly as cool as us: what more could they do??

Iran has already moved on Iraq and Afghanistan. They are supplying IED's, arms, ammunition and training to the terrorists. As to what more can they do; I guess we will find out when they start supplying Hamas with a nuclear bomb.

We've also ably demonstrated(our first Gulf War), that the U.S. could flatten Iran's expeditionary war making ability in about a week of actual fighting.

Iran's asymmetric way of war will be difficult to counter. Especially when our military is forced to fight a politically correct war. the Western way of war is dead.

This concern over foreign policy is inconsistent with anti-statist and pro-small government advocacy.

Perhaps. But I don't think the world can exist half slave and half free. It's going to be one or the other.

If you're worried about China talk to your favorite retailers and importers. Venezuela is simply a nation that liberated itself from the totalitarian rule of its ivory tower oil-company reared puppetmasters--Hugo Chavez won popular elections: are you against democracy.??

We agree on China and my favorite retailers. When you buy from Wal Mart you build a Chinese aircraft carrier

Chavez did not win the popular election. It is a well documented fact that the ballot boxes were stuffed. He "won" through terror, intimidation and good old fashioned fraud.

If our current policy succeeds there will be a stable and democratic Iraq and Afghanistan that will serve as a counter weight to the rise of the totalitarian states. That's winning clean.

The alternative is to win dirty. We withdraw our forces and let both countries disintegrate into mass killing zones. We reestablish our previous policy of funding all sides in their orgy of mass killing hoping that they kill us last.

Some would call that peace. I have to agree with Tacitus on that outcome: "They made a desert and called it peace"

[ryan costa]

Iran will not move on Iraq: We've ablely demonstrated that it would turn into a quagmire for them: they aren't nearly as cool as us: what more could they do??

Iran has already moved on Iraq and Afghanistan. They are supplying IED's, arms, ammunition and training to the terrorists. As to what more can they do; I guess we will find out when they start supplying Hamas with a nuclear bomb.

Blaming Iran for whatever IEDs, arms, ammunition, and training go to terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan is like blaming the Mexican Government for Marijuana and Cocaine that makes it from Mexico to the United States. Iran is not a backwater extremist state: It is politically and culturally interactive with most of Europe and the rest of the world. Basing your decision on caricatures promoted by the Powers that be disqualifies your opinion. In addition, far more weapons are generally exported from the United States than from Iran: they aren't used to bake pizzas.

Iran isn't in a civil war right now because the different factions can generally abide each other.

Iraqis are generally and practically less free now than they were during most of Saddam Hussein's rule. The principle difference is they can vote in token or symbolic elections. Americans can vote in Cleveland, Detroit, municipal Washington D.C., etc...but they choose not to live there.

They can't live in sleepy suburbs: oil is their principal export. We've succeeded in exporting our failure rates to Iraq: Today we have more police and lawyers than ever before: they are required to have more training than ever before: yet there is generally more crime and unpleasantness between crimes. But we've got a thick cushion of entertainment built up by our 1.5 centuries as an isolated, protectionist economy that survived the rest of the industrialized world getting demolished in two world wars. Iraq, and other nation building projects will continue to fail. They will never have the prosperity to keep most of their citizens narcotized on a constant diet of tv, gambling, junk food, health fads, pornography, 4 hours of driving a day, etc.

Here's the best general summary of the situation copied from a messageboard elsewhere:

As previously mentioned, Kuwait was horizontal drillign into Iraq. And Kuwait is still horizontal drilling into Iraq. They have a long row of rigs pumping oil out of IRaq, all along the border, protected by US bases.

Its the job of the American tax payer, to protected Kuwaiti theft of Iraqi oil. We pay, they profit. They finance international terorism, we protect them.

The war on Iraq serves the purpose also of preventing Iraqi oil supplies from disrupting Saudi Profits. the Saudis use their profits to finance terrorism. Terrorism, gives us a reason to stay in the region.
So we help the Saudis sponser the insurgency in Iraq, to kill our soldiers, so our politicians can argue we need to stay to fight the insurgents that we are financing...

Then there's bloated corporate profits in creating and sponsering enemies, just so we can fight them.

More of our military contractors are moving to Dubai, because funds that go through the banking system there, aren't subject to international srutiny. The US can't examine those funds in order to determine where they are going. they make a perfect conduit for the financing of terrorism.

Halliburton is only the latest corporation doing sensitive military work for the US, to move to Dubai. Now Halliburton can continue to earn money from Iran, Iraq, Syria, or anyone else, without US scrutiny. They can finance terrorism and send payments to Al Qeada, and there's no way that anyone in the US would know.

Posted by: one Eye Open | June 18, 2007 at 10:26 AM

How much oil does the US get from Iraq? In truth we import most of our oil from Canada and Mexico.

The real reason we invaded Iraq is to keep the price of oil tied to the US dollar. If there was any threat to the US way of life from Iraq that was the biggest one.

So by preventing a switch from the petrodollar to the petroeuro or some other currency, Bush accomplished his goal - mission acccomplished. The rest of the war is just the cost of doing business.

War is profitable. To not have gone to war would have cost us a lot more down the road.

We've also ably demonstrated(our first Gulf War), that the U.S. could flatten Iran's expeditionary war making ability in about a week of actual fighting.

Iran's asymmetric way of war will be difficult to counter. Especially when our military is forced to fight a politically correct war. the Western way of war is dead.

There is no war with Iran yet.

This concern over foreign policy is inconsistent with anti-statist and pro-small government advocacy.

Perhaps. But I don't think the world can exist half slave and half free. It's going to be one or the other.

which half are slaves? what is the measure of their achieving freedom?

If you're worried about China talk to your favorite retailers and importers. Venezuela is simply a nation that liberated itself from the totalitarian rule of its ivory tower oil-company reared puppetmasters--Hugo Chavez won popular elections: are you against democracy.??

We agree on China and my favorite retailers. When you buy from Wal Mart you build a Chinese aircraft carrier

Chavez did not win the popular election. It is a well documented fact that the ballot boxes were stuffed. He "won" through terror, intimidation and good old fashioned fraud.

If our current policy succeeds there will be a stable and democratic Iraq and Afghanistan that will serve as a counter weight to the rise of the totalitarian states. That's winning clean.

The alternative is to win dirty. We withdraw our forces and let both countries disintegrate into mass killing zones. We reestablish our previous policy of funding all sides in their orgy of mass killing hoping that they kill us last.

Some would call that peace. I have to agree with Tacitus on that outcome: "They made a desert and called it peace"

Chavez's elections have been monitored by independent international agencies and deemed legitimate. The governments preceding him had been notorious for 'disappearing' people and also rigging election. These governments were comprised of and empowered by a miniscule portion of the population living in cloistered enclaves built to serve the petro industry. That system wasn't perfect, and the current one isn't perfect...yet there are fewer people living as slaves there now than as before, if they are either slaves or free.

There is no Global War on Terror. If there were we'd be losing badly. It is just too easy to destroy expensive infrastructure so important to our standards of living we confuse with 'freedom'. It is pretty easy to get into the United States: there are 8 to 20 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. We mostly only catch the ones who work the same jobs 40 to 80 hours a week.

Al Queda is in Iraq because the United States is in Iraq. We are less successful at keeping them from gaining power in Iraq than Saddam Hussein was. Several Ten thousand Iraqi police recruits have already been killed. Several ten thousand more have gone missing. Saddam Hussein never had these problems. But things will work out, once they're working out exactly as we want them to.