Not that we know what an Art's District is...

[Joe Ott]

As Woody Gunthrie supposedly said- Take it easy, but take it.

That's art right there. Good old Woody. Don't know Woody? Go get "Dust Bowl Ballads".

I like art. I did the 2 year Commercial Arts program at LHS in the 70's. I do photography (had a darkroom for many many years), still have my Nikon's (film & digi), listen to all kinds of music (it's a form of art) Folk to Rock, like to create art though woodworking (building furniture), I like the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and so on. I see art. Geez, starting to sound a like a liberal or something, better stop...

But I wonder, why are schools required to teach art? Why? Kids can graduate HS and not know common everyday tasks like balancing a checkbook. I wonder if some of the Asian country require school students to take art classes. I'll have to ask a colleague today (from China).

There are so many things I've come across as an adult (supposedly) that I wish they would have taught me (or warned me about!) about in HS. The "Art's" is not one of them.

Don't get me wrong. I said I like art and so on so don't jump down my neck. I'm just wonder why it's required in school. I'm not saying we shouldn't teach it. Seems like there are vastly more important things to teach - of course, maybe that's why there is little funding for it? I dunno. Just wondering.

Jso

[Gary Rice]

Joe,

Could you indeed, be a closet liberal?

Another saying attributed to ol' Woody:

I ain't a communist necessarily, but I've been in the red all my life!

People born after the '60's probably won't get that one at all.

I rebuilt Woody's mandolin for the Rock Hall, way back in the last century sometime. Had to use a few parts from a busted up old mandolin I had, in order to get the job done. They don't have it there anymore. Last I heard, it was in the Smithsonian. Far as I know, I was the last one to play it too, before they put it on display. I might have played "So Long, It's been good to Know Ya", but I do not recall. I liked to put those instruments to bed with a song from their owners before they got hung up on some wall forever.

On his guitar, and his violin, seems that I recall that it said "This Machine Kills Fascists".

As for art being required? I don't have the stats in front of me, but I can tell you that precious little art is required in the schools today. I think one semester was required in middle school when I taught, and I'm not sure I recall any being required in high school these days, but I could be wrong.

I've got my old film Nikons too. Go on the net for a sad shock at what they're worth today!

I just heard that they're supposed to be discontinuing their film cameras. I hope that's not true, but these days, who knows?

By the way Ivor, a good bit of those pictures and songs and artwork from the Depression in the '30's were paid by for the federal government to document those terrible times.

Ya'll take art away, ya might as well take away life itself.

and that's MY quote, thank you.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Don't get me wrong. I said I like art and so on so don't jump down my neck. I'm just wonder why it's required in school. I'm not saying we shouldn't teach it. Seems like there are vastly more important things to teach - of course, maybe that's why there is little funding for it? I dunno. Just wondering.

Jso

Joe

You sound like you might have passed through the classes of Winkleman and Battaglia,

The theory I believe is that arts, rounds out the individual. It helps us be human, even better humans. Of course this goes back to the beginning of time, when artist possibly because of genes, decided they were higher in intelligent and talent than the non-cave painter. Pushed to the forefront during the Greeks and Romans. This myth still continues, which is why I asked what is art.

I am lucky enough to have had an interesting life. I see art everywhere. Political Art, Street Art, Business Art, The Art of The Deal, Design Art, Mechanical Art, etc. I was lucky enough to be a commercial art after the Pop Art Movement, which brought the concept of Commercial Art being art to the masses. Which was long overdue. It was DiVinci, that showed us mechanical design and human bodies were art as well.

Art and design is a very important feature of life.

But taught in school? I can see the need for introduction, but I can also see the problems with "teaching" art as opposed to teaching art history, technique, and style. I have had great art teachers Battaglia, and mediocre art teachers.

The reason it is underfunded is that there are no real visionaries involved. It is far easier to sell sports, yawn, then arts. I believe that nothing could be farther from the truth. This is in a plan we released a year ago.

Joe, small world.


peace

[Joe Ott]

Could you indeed, be a closet liberal?

Let me think about that a second. Done. Not a chance.

I ain't a communist necessarily, but I've been in the red all my life!
People born after the '60's probably won't get that one at all.

I do.

On his guitar, and his violin, seems that I recall that it said "This Machine Kills Fascists".

It did.

[Charyn Compeau]

http://www.ed.gov/pubs/ResearchToday/98-3038.html

A bit dol - but very interesting study onthe Japanese school system.

After a quick review it seems that the grades 1 through 6 are heavily focused on whole life/rounded education designed to encourage active participation and a love of learning.

They encourage active participation in extracurricular activities as well to encourage social bonds that support ongoing education.

They do not rigorously begin testing until junior high level.

I don't have time to read the whole thing today but it does seem super interesting. First blush tells me we need to think about less NCLB and more social clubs (garden club, young democrats, etc. <tic>)

I will also be curious to see what Joe's friend from China states. While they are one the same side of the world there are distinct differences in Asian cultures and values all throughout Asia. So looking at China may not reflect the same system that you find in Japan, which is often thought of as the educational leader in developed countries.

Always,
Charyn

[Gary Rice]

JIMMY! YA DONE GONE AND ATTRIBUTED THE WRONG QUOTE TO ME!

Take a look at yer box above, m'man. The one about me supposedly not knowing why art should be required in school.

That was JOE'S post!

..and you said as much, I think, but people could still get confused.

I get in trouble enough for what I DO say :-)

Now YOU wrote:

The theory I believe is that arts, rounds out the individual.

Yup, I'll agree with that one. My belly is as round as it can get from all those cheezeburgers at 3 in the morning, after playing some roadhouse or other.

Joe, whazzamatter with being a closet liberal? If you can find a picture of Woody that quick, I still think you might be one.

Would revealing that hurt your job? Mess up your family? Cause your dog to bite you?

I believe that Great Old Book has a quote in there somewhere:

"By their works shall you know them"

I think that's probably true with me.

I don't need no flaming sign hung on me for people to know who I am...

Nor do you, my friend, nor do you.

[Gary Rice]

Charyn,

You're the best, but you hit a nerve here....

For years, we've been told that the Japanese had rigorous schools. That they were ahead in math and science skills, that they knew how to discipline and have an orderly classroom.

So in trying to "catch up" to some standard of excellence, we tried to turn our classes into academic sweat shops in this country.

And now that we have a generation of calculator-carrying sweaty-palmed, nerve wracked young people, the so-called experts are saying that the Japanese are teaching time to RELAX????????

Now, they tell us.

As far as I am concerned they can take all those examples of overseas excellence from whatever land, and......

Let's seek the balance for our children as well, before we push them too far off-balance.

[Joe Ott]

Joe, whazzamatter with being a closet liberal? If you can find a picture of Woody that quick, I still think you might be one.

I have that poster of Woody hanging in my woodworking shop right next to my Ann Coulter poster which is next to the Dylan poster. She's in between the two.

[Gary Rice]

Heaven help any poor paper-eating insects who might be in that wood shop :-)

So many choices, so little time.

[Justine Cooper]

I agree with Charyn that our education should turn to Whole Eduction and Interactive. Instead of sitting in seats all day (which some kids can't) moving around and being an active part of a subject. Lakewood has some phenomenal teachers in the music and drama area. My son is not an "artist" but he has a love of art. What Art does, whether it be music or drama or any art form, is give a home to a child that may not fit in somewhere else. It allows them to excel at something, or at least be who they are in it. I will never till the day I die, get this society that pay millions to sports figures and ignores the others.

On a negative note, up until high school my son loved every teacher he ever had. Then he took an art class in high school and would come home and tell me the teacher spent time on her cell phone and watching soaps but didn't teach them anything! It really bothered him, and what does that really teach children? To me, tenure can be the death of education. No other field in this country do you automatically get to stay after so many years. If you lose your passion to teach, move on, don't take the children down with you. Wouldn't it be nice if the state made it easier for musicians, artists, etc. to obtain a license and teach with the passion that they have?

[Charyn Compeau]

Gary -

Not to press too hard on that nerve but this report was published in 1999.

They may have discipline in their schools - but not to the detriment of the students. And they are ahead is math and science, but not because they exercise age INappropriate rigor in the early stages of education. The rigor does exist - but in much older age hildren that have the intellectual and emotional capacity to handle it - and the well indoctrinated love of the game to pursue it themselves.

We have known for a while (and certainly before NCLB) that the solution was NOT testing testing testing, but fostering a love of learning.

But thats somewhat hard to measure, isn't it.

And even harder to use that measurement to get votes. And really - isnt all of this 'sweatshop education' nothing more than a political tool?

And so here we are.

I have long felt that many choices that politicians woo us with are not truly for the betterment of our children but for the betterment of their careers...

But i'll stop there before my uber liberalism shows

Charyn

[Danielle Masters]

Unfortunately once again this conversation has led to the fact that schools can only do so much. Society as a whole can only do so much. Involved parents are the key. Would my kids suffer if Lakewood didn't have art or music programs? No. Why? Because my children get that at home unlike some children. Because I see to it that my children have access to different art materials. I take them to museums and we have fun doing arts and crafts. As for music having a musician for a father they have no choice but to take music lessons. Piano lessons generally start in the 1st grade, our daughter started in kindergarten because she wanted to. We try and introduce our children to a variety of music, hip/hop and country excluded.

I am for strong art programs in the school because I know for many children that will be the only opportunity the will have to be exposed to it. As for music it has been shown that children that take music lessons do better in math and science than their peers who don't take the lessons. Children do need re-enforcement at home which is why so many children struggle. I know that the schools can only do so much but hopefully someday down the line they will go back to education and not have to focus so much on tests. The answer to that is not just getting rid of NCLB but also addressing the fact that not every teacher is cut out to teach. We can have all the standards in the world but if someone isn't good at or has no desire to teach then children will continue to suffer. Until that time we need to try and give a well rounded education, which should include studying different artistic mediums.

[Justine Cooper]

The sad fact is, that schools are required to do much more than they were intended to do. They were never supposed to be a substitute for parents, but in many sad cases that is what has happened. Look at breakfast. Schools now provide breakfast, because all the research shows (and common sense) that kids can't succeed without proper nutrition. The same kids getting these breakfasts, come from homes where our taxes pay for food stamps! And thank God we do feed them and that the schools took over this part of parenting, but the fact remains that it shouldn't have had to happen. If you take pre-school, that is now a "given" for all, as it should be, because all kids deserve it, but it is now the school's responsibility to provide it. While I pay for my child's pre-school, I also pay in taxes for others, so it has become all our responsibility.

Sadly, Danielle, if we can't get all the parents to provide breakfast for their own kids, then no, we can't get them all to provide arts at home. So the rest of us will continue to work two jobs (or our husbands so we can be home with the kids), coming home exhausted, and vote for even more taxes out of our money to provide better education, we hope, all around, for everyone.

[dl meckes]

Why would we want schools to teach children forms of non-violent self-expression that might result in rewarding careers?

[Joe Ott]

I will also be curious to see what Joe's friend from China states.

I spoke to her briefly. She said all schools in the country use the same curriculum and books. There is little art (drawing she said they call it) taught. She said, as students their one goal in life is to pass the college entry exam in order to not be a failure to friends and family. And that is the basic push through all the curriculum.

You sound like you might have passed through the classes of Winkleman and Battaglia

Oh I remember Mr. B quite well. He was one of those few teachers who always stuck in my head. Nice guy. Always wondered what happened to him. He told me a story once about how he was walking his dog one night on Lake Road. I think he said he lived in Bay at the time. A van pulled up along side him, stuck a machine gun out the window, and the masked man simply said "you're dead". Turns out it was just some kids pulling a prank and a toy gun but of course scared him quite a bit. But it was funny how he told the story. Just one of those dumb things that sticks in your head...

It is far easier to sell sports, yawn, then arts.
I believe that nothing could be farther from the truth. This is in a plan we released a year ago.

I'm confused. Do you agree with "sports, yawn"?

No other field in this country do you automatically get to stay after so many years.

Um, what about the American Automotive Industry and unions?

Back to this threads subject...

But, I thought we were talking about what Art is... I think it's an interesting question. I don't know what defines art. Never really thought about it.

As Jim O pointed out, Wikipedia defines art as "that which is made with the intention of stimulating the human senses as well as the human mind and or spirit." But does art have to be "made"? Can't art be a natural form, not made with any intention? I don't know.

Joe