I think airing the issues IS good for Lakewood.
I think we are all in agreement that scouting (absent the national policies) promotes any number of positive values and skills.
I think we are all in agreement that there is little, if any discrimination in troops on a local level and that it has been shown that local troops can be unfairly penalized because of the national policy.
I think it is a very worthwhile discussion to reassure those who may not have much contact with the LGT community that LGBT does not equal pedophile.
Good people are good people, no matter what their gender, sexual orientation or gender identification.
Boy Scouts in Lakewood
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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Mark Crnolatas
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:32 pm
- Location: Lakewood, Ohio
...
the head of psychiatry, Johns Hopkins, who is considered one of if not the leading authority in psychiatry in the U.S., makes the statement that there has never been, nor is there any evidence of any sort that sexual orientation of any type has anything to do with pedophilia or any other abnormal psychiatric disorder.
While the show's title might not exude "class", the show is backed by Showtime, and it's legal department.
I don't depend on that show for total information, but I find many of the expose's interesting.
Mark Allan Crnolatas
While the show's title might not exude "class", the show is backed by Showtime, and it's legal department.
I don't depend on that show for total information, but I find many of the expose's interesting.
Mark Allan Crnolatas
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Bryan Schwegler
- Posts: 963
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:23 pm
- Location: Lakewood
DougHuntingdon wrote:1. I realize this is Lakewood, a prominent gay city (although some want to deny it, for some reason). 2. I don't have a personal vendetta against gays, but I think something obvious needs to be said.
Do you want your 10-year old (last I knew BSA was for 10 to eighteen) son sleeping in a tent with a gay 17 year old who is out of the closet? Do you want your son sleeping in a tent with a gay male adult? Do you want your 13 year old daughter sleeping in a tent with a 17 year old straight boy? with an adult male? If any of those scenarios are okay with you, well at least you are being politically correct...however I hope nothing bad happens to your child ):
Doug
I'm just disgusted completely offended by your post.
I'm a high school youth leader, we do overnights and lockins. Based on your homophobic stone-age mentality, I shouldn't be allowed to do that. I'm glad that most people don't seem to share your antiquated view. As a matter of fact, the parents and kids love me. I'm proud of the job I do.
I guess I shouldn't have been able to be on the LHS Swim Team, participated in overnight class trips in middle school, or anything else that would have had me be part of regular student life.
Heck, let's just exile all the gay people to some remote island. That would solve all societies problems huh?
You are insulting.
You also obviously don't realize that the overwhelming majority of all pedophiles are straight men.
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Kate McCarthy
- Posts: 481
- Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:25 pm
- Location: Lakewood
I think this whole thread has been terribly painful on many levels but I think very worthwhile. I'm a very intermittent observer but from what I have observed I come to think that Gary has a heart of gold and the welfare of children first and foremost in his thoughts.
That's why I hope that Gary and other scouting enthusiasts keep in mind the little boy who thrives as a scout only to be tossed out when he comes of age and no longer conforms to a scouting ideal that he can't possibly live up to if he is to be true to himself. The scouts offer many badges .... and fortunately they don't offer a merit badge for being straight. But the message they are sending to little boys is if you grow up to be a gay man you don't belong anymore. So I hope our Lakewood troops fight this bigotry whenever they confront it.
The man the BSA fought to the supreme court to exclude didn't hate the Boy Scouts...they were his family. That's why I find this particularly cruel. The boy challenges himself to achieve the ideal to only be set aside. I don't want that to happen to any child.
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/28/scotus.gay.boyscouts/
That's why I hope that Gary and other scouting enthusiasts keep in mind the little boy who thrives as a scout only to be tossed out when he comes of age and no longer conforms to a scouting ideal that he can't possibly live up to if he is to be true to himself. The scouts offer many badges .... and fortunately they don't offer a merit badge for being straight. But the message they are sending to little boys is if you grow up to be a gay man you don't belong anymore. So I hope our Lakewood troops fight this bigotry whenever they confront it.
The man the BSA fought to the supreme court to exclude didn't hate the Boy Scouts...they were his family. That's why I find this particularly cruel. The boy challenges himself to achieve the ideal to only be set aside. I don't want that to happen to any child.
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/28/scotus.gay.boyscouts/
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Gary Rice
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:59 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Kate and everyone,
Thanks for your kind words, and inclusive beliefs. As time goes by, we'll all hopefully understand each other better, unless some big-boom mushroom cloud comes along and ruins all of our days.
Ever since they tried to build that Tower of Babel, it seems that just when people think they're starting to get along, they have to start all over again.
I wonder just how many more chances we all are going to have to get all this right?
But I digress.
I believe that there is another aspect to this situation, that needs to be addressed.
While Bryan and Laurie are no doubt absolutely correct in their assertions that gays and pedophiles are generally NOT one and the same, the fact remains that young people of similar age may decide to experiment, or they might, perhaps, have a negative experience forced upon them by one or more of their peers.
The Boy Scouts, and a number of other youth groups, have training sessions that can alert young people of their options, and reporting procedures, if they feel that they have been approached by a person, or persons of whatever age, in an inappropriate manner.
A youth leader, given the responsibility of supervising young people, wants above all, for them to have a safe youth group experience.
I feel certain that we would all agree that this would be a primary mission for youth activities, all labels aside.
I would suggest that all parents carefully monitor whatever youth group that their child might affiliate with.
Keep those lines of communication open with your child. Reasonable precautions can insure a happy and productive youth group experience for all involved.
Just a note to Kate. I would bear in mind that issues as you have described are rare, but they do happen. From the beginning, Scouting had disputes going on. The first big one was probably between Ernest Thompson Seton, and Lord Baden-Powell; two of Scouting's founders; over the direction that Scouting should take. Throughout the years, Scouting has indeed gone through many more changes.
But it has changed, and no doubt, will change still in the future.
Just as some people on these postings want Scouting to be more tolerant, may I suggest as well that people try and be more tolerant of Scouting, as it struggles through these changes?
"Kumbayah", anyone?
Thanks for your kind words, and inclusive beliefs. As time goes by, we'll all hopefully understand each other better, unless some big-boom mushroom cloud comes along and ruins all of our days.
Ever since they tried to build that Tower of Babel, it seems that just when people think they're starting to get along, they have to start all over again.
I wonder just how many more chances we all are going to have to get all this right?
But I digress.
I believe that there is another aspect to this situation, that needs to be addressed.
While Bryan and Laurie are no doubt absolutely correct in their assertions that gays and pedophiles are generally NOT one and the same, the fact remains that young people of similar age may decide to experiment, or they might, perhaps, have a negative experience forced upon them by one or more of their peers.
The Boy Scouts, and a number of other youth groups, have training sessions that can alert young people of their options, and reporting procedures, if they feel that they have been approached by a person, or persons of whatever age, in an inappropriate manner.
A youth leader, given the responsibility of supervising young people, wants above all, for them to have a safe youth group experience.
I feel certain that we would all agree that this would be a primary mission for youth activities, all labels aside.
I would suggest that all parents carefully monitor whatever youth group that their child might affiliate with.
Keep those lines of communication open with your child. Reasonable precautions can insure a happy and productive youth group experience for all involved.
Just a note to Kate. I would bear in mind that issues as you have described are rare, but they do happen. From the beginning, Scouting had disputes going on. The first big one was probably between Ernest Thompson Seton, and Lord Baden-Powell; two of Scouting's founders; over the direction that Scouting should take. Throughout the years, Scouting has indeed gone through many more changes.
But it has changed, and no doubt, will change still in the future.
Just as some people on these postings want Scouting to be more tolerant, may I suggest as well that people try and be more tolerant of Scouting, as it struggles through these changes?
"Kumbayah", anyone?
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DougHuntingdon
- Posts: 527
- Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:29 pm
Ultimately the scouting issue comes down to parenting, and parents doing what they feel is best for their own kids. It is hard enough to control the city government, let alone the federal executive branch or the Supreme Court. There have been a lot of good posts on this issue, pro and con.
However, I have never personally experienced such ignorance, far-out assumptions, jumping to conclusions, and improper judgmentalism on a message board. Perhaps many read the first HALF of my main point (in a relatively short message several back in this thread) then responded with a preprogrammed message, without reading the second HALF? HALF of the main point of my short post dealt with homosexuals, and HALF dealt with heterosexuals. That's right--heterosexuals. Hello???
I guess I should not be surprised, but I was disappointed. Perhaps some posters are receiving marching orders from a third party; however, I would not want to assume or directly accuse someone of that without evidence. Come on, folks, you can do better than this:
1. I'm called homophobic. Curiously, though, I'm not called heterophobic, even though HALF the main point dealt with heterosexuals. (Ok I shouldn't need to say HALF again.)
2. I'm accused of calling all homosexuals pedophiles, but I am strangely not accused of calling all heterosexuals pedophiles. We get multiple comments on homosexual (or even the more encompassing LGBT) likeliness to commit certain crimes, with even a little heterosexual bashing thrown in on the side for good measure. We even get a summary of some scholarly research performed on the issue--research performed by someone at a prestigious university.
3. The possibility is thrown out from left field that I am worried about gays converting the straights. Note that this appears to fit the mold of a preprogrammed response more than anything.
4. One poster critically mentions my alleged unawareness of the realities of scouting, but then that same poster goes on to vindicate my main point by mentioning a coed camping group (without mentioning any problems with it, so a reasonable person would assume it runs ok) where girls and boys sleep in SEPARATE tents.
5. Last, but not least, one poster states how "now she knows to stay away from me." I can feel the love already.
Within every major group, there may be a small percentage of radicals, outlaws, etc. With motorcyclists, they have the term "2%ers." In fact, some motorcycle gangs/clubs even pride themselves on being 2%ers, i.e. being a part of the 2% of motorcyclists who are radicals, outlaws, etc. With heterosexuals, there is a small portion who are gaybashers and will even try to pick fights when encountering gays on the street or perhaps refuse to go to a certain dry cleaner because of a rumor of a gay person working there. However, the vast majority of heterosexuals are not like that. *They just want to get along with their lives without too much bother.* Within homosexuals, there is also a portion who are radicals who just like to bash those who might not agree with them 100% on every issue. They may not shop at a store if there is not a rainbow flag outside. They may try to put the rainbow flag above the POW flag on the same pole. They may march in a parade and say "we're here. we're qu***. and we're in your face!!!" However, most homosexuals and gayfriendly people I have encountered in my life preach TOLERANCE. Tolerance of everyone...even those who may not be 100% like them! Not judgmentalism. Not assuming. Not ignorance. *They just want to get along with their lives without too much bother.* JUST LIKE HETEROSEXUALS
Doug
----heterosexual summary in original post that was ignored-----------------
Do you want your 13 year old ****daughter**** sleeping in a tent with a 17 year old straight ***boy***? with an adult ****male?*****
------------------------
However, I have never personally experienced such ignorance, far-out assumptions, jumping to conclusions, and improper judgmentalism on a message board. Perhaps many read the first HALF of my main point (in a relatively short message several back in this thread) then responded with a preprogrammed message, without reading the second HALF? HALF of the main point of my short post dealt with homosexuals, and HALF dealt with heterosexuals. That's right--heterosexuals. Hello???
I guess I should not be surprised, but I was disappointed. Perhaps some posters are receiving marching orders from a third party; however, I would not want to assume or directly accuse someone of that without evidence. Come on, folks, you can do better than this:
1. I'm called homophobic. Curiously, though, I'm not called heterophobic, even though HALF the main point dealt with heterosexuals. (Ok I shouldn't need to say HALF again.)
2. I'm accused of calling all homosexuals pedophiles, but I am strangely not accused of calling all heterosexuals pedophiles. We get multiple comments on homosexual (or even the more encompassing LGBT) likeliness to commit certain crimes, with even a little heterosexual bashing thrown in on the side for good measure. We even get a summary of some scholarly research performed on the issue--research performed by someone at a prestigious university.
3. The possibility is thrown out from left field that I am worried about gays converting the straights. Note that this appears to fit the mold of a preprogrammed response more than anything.
4. One poster critically mentions my alleged unawareness of the realities of scouting, but then that same poster goes on to vindicate my main point by mentioning a coed camping group (without mentioning any problems with it, so a reasonable person would assume it runs ok) where girls and boys sleep in SEPARATE tents.
5. Last, but not least, one poster states how "now she knows to stay away from me." I can feel the love already.
Within every major group, there may be a small percentage of radicals, outlaws, etc. With motorcyclists, they have the term "2%ers." In fact, some motorcycle gangs/clubs even pride themselves on being 2%ers, i.e. being a part of the 2% of motorcyclists who are radicals, outlaws, etc. With heterosexuals, there is a small portion who are gaybashers and will even try to pick fights when encountering gays on the street or perhaps refuse to go to a certain dry cleaner because of a rumor of a gay person working there. However, the vast majority of heterosexuals are not like that. *They just want to get along with their lives without too much bother.* Within homosexuals, there is also a portion who are radicals who just like to bash those who might not agree with them 100% on every issue. They may not shop at a store if there is not a rainbow flag outside. They may try to put the rainbow flag above the POW flag on the same pole. They may march in a parade and say "we're here. we're qu***. and we're in your face!!!" However, most homosexuals and gayfriendly people I have encountered in my life preach TOLERANCE. Tolerance of everyone...even those who may not be 100% like them! Not judgmentalism. Not assuming. Not ignorance. *They just want to get along with their lives without too much bother.* JUST LIKE HETEROSEXUALS
Doug
----heterosexual summary in original post that was ignored-----------------
Do you want your 13 year old ****daughter**** sleeping in a tent with a 17 year old straight ***boy***? with an adult ****male?*****
------------------------
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Mark Crnolatas
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:32 pm
- Location: Lakewood, Ohio
...
It's 1%ers just to make this whole discussion accurate as possible. 
http://www.segag.org/mcgang.html
Mark Allan Crnolatas
http://www.segag.org/mcgang.html
Mark Allan Crnolatas
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Bryan Schwegler
- Posts: 963
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:23 pm
- Location: Lakewood
DougHuntingdon wrote:However, most homosexuals and gayfriendly people I have encountered in my life preach TOLERANCE. Tolerance of everyone...even those who may not be 100% like them!
Doug this thread is about homosexuals and scouting. Your post was inflammatory and insulting. While you might try to color it differently and apparently are now trying to spin yourself as the victim, your point was clearly obvious:
A gay man should not lead a scout troop or a gay boy should not be a scout.
Let me quote from you:
If any of those scenarios are okay with you, well at least you are being politically correct...however I hope nothing bad happens to your child ):
That statement alone seems to prove our interpretation of your intent.
What disturbs me most about your second post is not that you were trying to defend what you originally said, it's that you're trying to turn yourself into the victim.
Obviously if you didn't mean to write what you did, you may want to try to understand why it was taken that way by so many people.
And if you truly didn't mean what you did, it's even further disturbing that no where in your second post did you bother to apologize to any of the people you deeply offended or hurt who may have "misinterpreted" what you said.
Funny thing is that if I were to replace "gay" in your original post with "black" everyone would be attacking you for it, but I guess questioning the "moral straightness" of homosexuals is ok for some.
I wonder what would happen if I were to start a thread about "black people shouldn't be allowed in Lakewood because they just bring crime" or some other completely ignorant subject, how quickly everyone would jump down my throat. Yet, this bigotry remains unanswered by so many here. I thought Lakewood was better than this.
This thread has certainly opened my eyes.
I am tolerant of all kinds of views, however, there is a line when that view is bigoted and hurtful to other people.
There is certainly a brand being built by this thread but I don't think it's the one most people wanted.
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Gary Rice
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:59 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Bryan Schwegler posted:
This thread has certainly opened my eyes.
I am tolerant of all kinds of views, however, there is a line when that view is bigoted and hurtful to other people.
There is certainly a brand being built by this thread but I don't think it's the one most people wanted.
I would tend to agree with you Bryan, but I might also add that I feel the same way; regarding how some people seem to feel about Scouting.
Shall we all try to better understand each other?
Kumbayah, anyone?
This thread has certainly opened my eyes.
I am tolerant of all kinds of views, however, there is a line when that view is bigoted and hurtful to other people.
There is certainly a brand being built by this thread but I don't think it's the one most people wanted.
I would tend to agree with you Bryan, but I might also add that I feel the same way; regarding how some people seem to feel about Scouting.
Shall we all try to better understand each other?
Kumbayah, anyone?
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Jeff Endress
- Posts: 858
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:13 am
- Location: Lakewood
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Jeff Endress
- Posts: 858
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:13 am
- Location: Lakewood
Gary
You know I'm always searching for a moderate approach, seeking some middle ground. I love sitting around the campfire singing Kumbayah. But, sometimes that becomes difficult wjen the counterpoint in the fugue is the Theme from Deliverance.
Jeff
You know I'm always searching for a moderate approach, seeking some middle ground. I love sitting around the campfire singing Kumbayah. But, sometimes that becomes difficult wjen the counterpoint in the fugue is the Theme from Deliverance.
Jeff
To wander this country and this world looking for the best barbecue â€â€
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Gary Rice
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:59 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Jeff,
Good post.
Funny too.
The problem, as I see it, is that our world is at a crossroads. Either we all start to sing "Kumbayah" soon, or we will be vaporized in a thermonuclear mist.
People thought with the end of the Cold War, that the risk of nuclear or bio-chemical mass destruction was coming to an end.
All that happened, however, was that the technology dispersed around the world, with greater risks now, than ever before.
To work for peace, wherever, and whenever possible, seems to be something I've done all of my life. It is part and parcel of every fiber of my being.
Some people view conflict as cathartic, and perhaps it is.
Conflict resolution however, requires ground rules, and taking small steps at times.
Wars start with bullets, but they end around tables, talking.
Why not start with the tables first?
We all know what happened in the movie that you brought up...
Now once again everyone..."Kumbayah".
Where's Dennis? We need him.
Good post.
Funny too.
The problem, as I see it, is that our world is at a crossroads. Either we all start to sing "Kumbayah" soon, or we will be vaporized in a thermonuclear mist.
People thought with the end of the Cold War, that the risk of nuclear or bio-chemical mass destruction was coming to an end.
All that happened, however, was that the technology dispersed around the world, with greater risks now, than ever before.
To work for peace, wherever, and whenever possible, seems to be something I've done all of my life. It is part and parcel of every fiber of my being.
Some people view conflict as cathartic, and perhaps it is.
Conflict resolution however, requires ground rules, and taking small steps at times.
Wars start with bullets, but they end around tables, talking.
Why not start with the tables first?
We all know what happened in the movie that you brought up...
Now once again everyone..."Kumbayah".
Where's Dennis? We need him.
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Mark Crnolatas
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:32 pm
- Location: Lakewood, Ohio
...
It seems that we should arrange a "lets talk to residents" tour sometime.
Within line of sight from where I live, there are people that are anti-________ (fill in the blank with anything imaginable).
In where we shop, we overhear people talking down _________ (fill in the blank with anything imaginable).
The Wood is diverse, and it's filled with a cross-section of a little of everyone as far as I can determine, from rednecks to blue-collar Archie Bunker type, to black people of all opinions, to Mr. and Ms Keep-up-with-the-Joneses, to "My house and car is better than yours, so I don't talk to you" to homophobics, to gender/sexual orientation of all types to "lets aspire to get loaded forever doooode", to truckers, country western lovers to hard-core metal band members, and everyone has opinions. Some good, some bad and some are extremely radical.
Come on down with us to shoot some pool some time (since we bowl so pathetic I almost beaned someone lofting a ball once so you don't want to bowl in an alley on either side of us) , and stop at a couple stores with us, keep an ear open, and I believe you'll rethink the comments and postings on this thread as extremely MILD.
*NOTE: None of the comments or statements we hear are from owners or employees of the establishments we go to, they are from the patrons, or those people outside of these establishments.
To quote someone famous, "This Ain't Nuthin!"
Mark Allan Crnolatas
Musician,
DISCLAIMER:
Please understand that there are equally as many positive things that many people talk about at these places. (this, for those Deck lurkers who do not post but read the Deck and are not familiar with Lakewood).
Within line of sight from where I live, there are people that are anti-________ (fill in the blank with anything imaginable).
In where we shop, we overhear people talking down _________ (fill in the blank with anything imaginable).
The Wood is diverse, and it's filled with a cross-section of a little of everyone as far as I can determine, from rednecks to blue-collar Archie Bunker type, to black people of all opinions, to Mr. and Ms Keep-up-with-the-Joneses, to "My house and car is better than yours, so I don't talk to you" to homophobics, to gender/sexual orientation of all types to "lets aspire to get loaded forever doooode", to truckers, country western lovers to hard-core metal band members, and everyone has opinions. Some good, some bad and some are extremely radical.
Come on down with us to shoot some pool some time (since we bowl so pathetic I almost beaned someone lofting a ball once so you don't want to bowl in an alley on either side of us) , and stop at a couple stores with us, keep an ear open, and I believe you'll rethink the comments and postings on this thread as extremely MILD.
*NOTE: None of the comments or statements we hear are from owners or employees of the establishments we go to, they are from the patrons, or those people outside of these establishments.
To quote someone famous, "This Ain't Nuthin!"
Mark Allan Crnolatas
Musician,
DISCLAIMER:
Please understand that there are equally as many positive things that many people talk about at these places. (this, for those Deck lurkers who do not post but read the Deck and are not familiar with Lakewood).