What Would You Do If Bush Declared Martial Law?

[Jim O'Bryan]

I would give them,, one, maybe two, maybe three, four, five, six coincidences, but 2,736!

The odds on winning the lottery are something to the effect of 80 million to one. If someone matches all the right numbers then it must be a conspiracy. right?

.

Brett

When the "plan" is written down, and stuck to at all costs. Doesn't it take most of the "chance" away?

As for the lottery that is one guess, each time. This is not one guess, it is 2,736 chances to hit it.

Now if one person, or group hit the lottery 2,736 times, you would not even question it?

Now what if that group wrote down the lottery numbers for the next 2,736 drawings?

Come on.


.

[Bret Callentine]

When the "plan" is written down, and stuck to at all costs. Doesn't it take most of the "chance" away?

what "Plan" are you referring to?

If you're talking about the specific invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan, well, it may come as a surprise to you but the U.S. currently has a plan on file for just about every imaginable scenario. I would put money on the fact that right now, somewhere in the pentagon, there is a plan of action detailing the best method to invade, overtake and hold the Vatican.

That's not a conspiracy, that's reality.

Of course they're sticking to the plan. That's why there was a plan in the first place.

Or are you referring to the other "double secret plan", the one where different presidents of the past 30 years secretly put in place all of the power, personnel and funding to pull of a daring strike on their own country so that years later, W will have a great diversion ready in case he only wins the election by a slim margin. Imagine if Gore would have won, they would have had to have contacted all the terrorists in order to stand down for at least another four years. All the perfect planning would have gone right down the tubes.

If you look at the time line, it's easy to see that all of the past history of our flawed global policy easily LED to the events of 9/11. but suggesting that this was all done specifically to CAUSE 9/11 is borderline psychotic.

[Charyn Compeau]

If you look at the time line, it's easy to see that all of the past history of our flawed global policy easily LED to the events of 9/11

And we would all do well t o keep in mind that hindsight is 20/20.

[Jim O'Bryan]

what "Plan" are you referring to?


That's not a conspiracy, that's reality.


If you look at the time line, it's easy to see that all of the past history of our flawed global policy easily LED to the events of 9/11. but suggesting that this was all done specifically to CAUSE 9/11 is borderline psychotic.

Bret

I would expect better from you. You were the one using the "C" word not me. Does something HAVE TO BE a conspiracy to be wrong? A conspiracy a plan between two or more people. Bill Clinton was not guilty of a conspiracy, certainly his plan called for Monica cleaning the dress. He was charged with LYING. Something illegal for ALL preisdents to do.

Wolfowitz Doctrine, 1992 later words slightly changed and filed away. As part of the plan for the mid-east, it calls for destabilizing the mid-east and an imperialistic view for America over there and the world.

Of course it also calls for a "major event" to help explain the policy. hmmmm, how lucky they were.

So GWB snags office, creates the most secret administration, in America;s history, erodes the Constitution, then proceeds to carry out the overall view, while explaining it all the way with attacks, needs, EVERYTHING but the truth.

This is what I just do not understand. NO critical thinking from the right NONE.

Bill Clinton lied, Bush has NEVER told the truth.

Where is the critical thinking on this. The war, makes perfect business sense, perfect. Even make perfect strategic sense, except for overlooking little things like throwing over 200 years of glorious history, perverting the entire political system in America, lieing time and again to Congress and the American people. While setting the stage for Martial Law. Back to the start of this thread.

Even if we look at some of the most basic truths, it is disgusting and troubling. From day one of this we were told it had nothing to do with the plan for a pipeline from the Caspian Sea to the coast. We have not got ANY perpetrators from 9/11, but we have the pipeline. This doesn't;t cause you to blink as the lemmings from the right take America over the cliff of no return. My God, he should have been brought up right then.

We are told "yellow-cake" but when we go into Iraq, we head right past the only nuke dump in the country, and secure the oil fields. The villagers then dump this material on the ground to use the barrels for water, and the whole village is now dead and dying. Where is the critical thought on this?

Sadaam killed his own! With US weapons and US targeting. where is the critical thought on that?

What troubles me most is that the RIGHT has sold their souls, by turning their critical eye away from this.

Of the plan, of course they are following it. OK but they are lieing to the American Public about it, letting us think it is the events of the situation, not the plan.

This is no different than WWII when American sat still knowing Pearl Harbor was being bombed, to get us into that war.

Bret at some point we have to realize, that 9/11 was 100% avoidable. That the entire war was about securing oil for private companies. Companies this administration is tied to. That does not bother you. That Americans are dying for a corporate war?

The ISI paid for 9/11, that the ISI was set up by the CIA, who had a hand in it as late as the middle of the Clinton Administration. Means nothing?

Again, Election, Secrecy, 9/11, Iraq, er Afghanistan, Pipeline, Oil, the entire country screaming get out, and they stay the course. This group is out of control and always has been.

Some of us, the Farris for sure. Have been screaming out every step of the way. I am sure we could go back and pull the posts. And every inch of the way the right has explained it away as nothing. The Farris and I and others have been forecasting where this was headed from day one. But the right stumbles and bumbles and makes excuse after excuse.

Either these guys are idiots, or geniuses. The problem is, if they are idiots, they need to get run for their foolish and wrong behavior. If they are geniuses, they have to be put on trial for perverting America, and crimes against the world. Can't have both.

And we would all do well t o keep in mind that hindsight is 20/20..

To be honest I was going to do you a favor and ignore this.

This is how we understand history. Is through the more perfect eyes of 20/20 hindsight with facts uncovered. But this administration has worked overtime hiding the facts, destroying the facts and locking them away for 50 years!

So even with the clouded glasses the whole scam is clear. Imagine in 50 years what the picture will look like.

It took nearly 50 years to understand Pearl Harbor.

It has taken 25 years to understand just how perverse and illegal Nixon was.

Luckily, we are on top of this one in the NOW.

What you suggest, is because they got away with it, we should turn our back?

I expect more from our leaders. I expect more from the president that was bringing honor back to the white house.

I thought we were trying for better than Bill Clinton, not 1000 times worse.

Again, either the most inept, or the most illegal.

Maybe you can sell your soul, your country out, and throw the system away. I cannot.

Please note, no crazy conspiracy theory used, no martians, no Roswell, nothing but facts as reported and the words of these guys.

Call me what you want, this is how critical thought is often marginalized.

You cannot cover up facts.

Another intersting look. http://bushagenda.net/

.

[Jim O'Bryan]

If you look at the time line, it's easy to see that all of the past history of our flawed global policy easily LED to the events of 9/11. but suggesting that this was all done specifically to CAUSE 9/11 is borderline psychotic.

Bret

I wanted this separate as this gets to the spooky side.

Are you familiar with ther term Manchurian?

Are you familiar with how Al Qaeda hands out orders?

Think about how the ISI/CIA set up the Taliban and Al Qaeda?

Then think about the term Manchurian?

This is when it gets scarry.

Luckily this does not even have to brought into the equation to make the case.

Critical thought, Bret.

Pretend he is Bill Clinton, or Dennis Kucinich.

Then tell the truth, what do you think?


.

[Bret Callentine]

Then tell the truth, what do you think?

the truth? The truth is, that I think you spend way too much time staring into your bowl of Alpha-bits cereal looking for hidden messages from Elivs.

the real truth, is that I'm disappointed. It saddens me that just because I have a different view of the events listed on that website, you chalk it up to a lack of critical thinking, naivete, or some unfettered love or loyalty to George Bush.

want more truth?

the truth is that I like Dennis Kucinich as a person, I admire his passion. In fact, when he's in town next, bring him by, I'll break out the slivovitz. I just don't agree with his policies and political viewpoints.

the truth is, I didn't mind at all that Clinton was getting his freak on in the oval office. That's between himself, his wife and his God. However lying about it under oath is a whole 'nother story.

Now, do me a favor. Lets assume for a minute that all the conspiracy talk is true. Can you at least give me your opinion on what is the overall purpose? What's the point. What is George Bush's goal? is he looking for fortune, fame, power? Is it just an ego trip? Do you think he's done all this for some sort of Christian Jihad? Or, does he just like to kill people?

Anyone else care to weigh in on this? I'd be interested to see where everyone else sits on this issue. You've been reading this thread for some time now. Time to take a straw poll.

Where do you stand?

[Jim O'Bryan]

Bret

I apologize, it is just that it is very disappointing to me that "critical thinking" by the masses, has been thrown away. Some of use we do not have to look in the bowl, (I suppose tha was a compliment) we questioned it as it happened. It set up the entire rape of America, with squeaks and outcries from many. but the roar from the right always drowned out the mentions.

When GWB sealed all presidential paperwork before 9/11. Many of us asked why. When he insisted on saying there were WMDs, many asked why, when everyone else said nothing to worry about. When habeas corpus was thrown away we asked why, and were told he needs that gone, and on and on and on and on. For many of us this is painful.

Now we are forced to look back, and arrange the letters for those that did not seek the critical thinking we should ask of every administration.

Why, who knows. To be honest I could care why. Never cared why Slick Willy hit it either. All I know is they lied to their bosses. I could make stuff up, but I would rather stick to the facts. I have thoughts on why, but they are my own.

Take a look at this from a business point of view. Makes sense. Take a look at it from an Imperialistic America point of view. Makes sense. This is what bothers me. I believe, they could have made better more truthful reasons why. They did not have to lie, they did not have to sneak around.

"In many countries martial law imposes particular rules, one of which is curfew. Often, under this system, the administration of justice is left to a military tribunal, called a court-martial. The suspension of the writ of habeas corpus is likely to occur."


.

[Danielle Masters]

It floors me that there are really people out there that think President Bush planned 9/11. And I guess the people who admitted involvement just did it to look good? I can't imagine how sad your lives must be if you think everything is one big conspiracy. 9/11 was a sad event and to say our president planned it no matter how much you may hate him is just wrong. I know I will get nowhere on this matter just as no matter what is said to me it will not change my mind. I guess I just feel that our President isn't an evil man, he is human and makes mistakes as we all do. The evil men were the middle eastern terrorists that flew those planes into the buildings and those terrorists that helped them plan it. I think we do a disservice to those that died on September 11th by spreading vicious conspiracy theories. BTW were all the people on the planes that stated the terrorists were middle eastern, were they also part of the big conspiracy plan? Just curious.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Danielle

Please go back and read what I posted.

I do not dwell on this, I really do not.

Life goes on, and on and on and on.

However, also look at history.

Vietnam, 35,000 Americans dead, so that one man could get elected.
FACT - easy one to check, much of this is public record now. But look at LBJ;s peace accord, then Nixon's. Nearly identical.

Pearl Harbor, 2,000 Americans dead, and the military knew it was going to happen. This came to light about 5 years ago.
FACT

Miss Evers Boys - 150 Black men infected with STD and allowed to die.
FACT - Well documented

Operation Onion - LSD test bed in San Francisco during the late 50s. Rumored to have more than 3,000 people unknowingly given LSD to test it on civilians. FACT - Well documented.

I could go on for far too long of "operations" uncovered that harmed Americans by our government.

While you are upset with the statement, I am upset by the outcome.

For what is is worth I doubt that GWB planned any of it.

Also let me say, I am so open on this I doubt that any others would be.

Example: I have no problem with Haliburton taking over the oil wells. They were doing it before the war, why not let them continue.


.

[Danielle Masters]

For what is is worth I doubt that GWB planned any of it.

Well at least we agree on something.

[Gary Rice]

"Kumbayah", anyone?

[Jim O'Bryan]

For what is is worth I doubt that GWB planned any of it.

Well at least we agree on something.

Danielle

My single biggest problem is absolute power corrupts absolutely.

History, is the scale we can measure the present by.

All the examples pointed out are true. I wish they were not, but they are. That is the tip of a very long list. Some things just cannot be believe.

One I always get a kick out of is where did the military first test nuclear fission, ie, the atomic bomb? Soldier Stadium in Chicago. They had no idea what would happen! When the tested the actual bomb, and the Hydrogen bomb they had no idea if it would end the world or not. They were pretty sure, I've read 60/40. Think about that?

The president, his staff, everyone in the military are just people, nothing more, nothing less. They all carry with them the same failings as all of us. Just being elected does not turn anyone into a super person.

I still remember the day, GWB sealed all of his presidential paperwork for 50 years. I remember Don Farris and I both talking, that it is going to get ugly. This was the second month of his presidency. Why, would the healing president, that was going to bring respect back to the Whitehouse need to do that? No war, no attack, nothing really changing anything. Out of the blue, it is all locked up.

I know you are busy with a family, I know you think I am nuts. But go look at the time line project. Look at stuff you know about. I think they have time lines for over 100 items. None are done with prejudice. They even had some bad items, that they tracked down to correct, and note the mistakes. This is not a conspiracy sight, it is a historical site. It just happens to be the only place you can see the full picture, accurately without an agenda.

It pains me, but for Americans to not understand the influences we are under borders on criminal neglect.

.

[Charyn Compeau]

To be honest I was going to do you a favor and ignore this.

Hmmm... a favor? Because I somehow was worried?

This is how we understand history. Is through the more perfect eyes of 20/20 hindsight with facts uncovered. But this administration has worked overtime hiding the facts, destroying the facts and locking them away for 50 years!

So even with the clouded glasses the whole scam is clear. Imagine in 50 years what the picture will look like.

Yes, it is how we understand history. And perhaps we can teach ourselves or our children better through past experiences; however, it doesnt change the decision making ability of the here and now.

I can easily look at the past and say shoulda, woulda, coulda, but IN THE SITUATION, I am forced to make the best decision I can, with the information available to me at the time. Not the POTENTIAL information available to me, not the information i SHOULD have had, but the information i DID have.

The president is no different from you or I in that regard.

For the record, I didn't vote for Bush, I don't agree with his policy decisions, I don't particularly like him as the representative of the United States to the rest of the world; HOWEVER, he is my elected president and I will give him the respect due his office out of duty and honor and respect as a man who I believe is truly making what he considers to be the decisions that are best for this country.

It took nearly 50 years to understand Pearl Harbor.

It has taken 25 years to understand just how perverse and illegal Nixon was.

Luckily, we are on top of this one in the NOW.

What you suggest, is because they got away with it, we should turn our back?

I suggested nothing, Jim, these are your words. Not mine. And what exactly are you referring to when you say "they got away with it" - with what?

If you are referring to the erosion of our civil liberties (Patriot Act) then I would refer you to my copious posts regarding the danger of this act and the need for all Americans that value the bedrock of this country to stand up and make their voices heard to their representatives.

I expect more from our leaders. I expect more from the president that was bringing honor back to the white house.

I thought we were trying for better than Bill Clinton, not 1000 times worse.

Ah well, I liked Clinton so I cannot relate to your comments.

Again, either the most inept, or the most illegal.

Or maybe he simply has a completely different view on how things should be done? Even with the huge amount of dissent in the country - there is still a HUGE number of people that believe that this IS the right thing to do.

Maybe you can sell your soul, your country out, and throw the system away. I cannot.

Slam slam slam. Was that necessary? Gee - lemme see here. Hmmmmmm...... I donned a uniform and put my life on the line for my country. I believe in this country second only to my belief in my salvation through Jesus Christ. I have suggested repeatedly that people do more than complain - that they USE the political system to effect change. I am active through the ACLU, through church groups, through political campaigns, and through direct letters and calls to my elected officials at all levels.

How is it that I am selling my soul? How is it that I have thrown my country away? How is it that I am unsupportive of our American system?

Please note, no crazy conspiracy theory used, no martians, no Roswell, nothing but facts as reported and the words of these guys.

Call me what you want, this is how critical thought is often marginalized.

You cannot cover up facts.

Never said a thing about martians or conspiracies. Never called you a thing. Never tried to marginalize you. And never tried to cover up facts.

And here I thought you wouldnt miss me while I was off!

Charyn

[Jim O'Bryan]

Charyn

Yeah, sure because I thought you would be worried.




.

[Jim O'Bryan]

To be honest I was going to do you a favor and ignore this.

Hmmm... a favor? Because I somehow was worried?

please

Yes, it is how we understand history. And perhaps we can teach ourselves or our children better through past experiences; however, it doesnt change the decision making ability of the here and now.

I can easily look at the past and say shoulda, woulda, coulda, but IN THE SITUATION, I am forced to make the best decision I can, with the information available to me at the time. Not the POTENTIAL information available to me, not the information i SHOULD have had, but the information i DID have.

The president is no different from you or I in that regard.

Two points

1) because of the rules GWB put into play. You will not be able to teach your children this. Your children might not even be able to teach their children this, or their grand children 50 years take both generations out of the loop and the relevancy of the whole problem.

This is why the 50 year rule is put in place.

2) All of this follows the Wolfie Plan so closely, many of us never needed the hindsight. This is what is so amazing. Ask the Ferris, this guy has made some of us look like psychics! Because we actually took the time to look at the plan, the rhetoric, and saw very clearly where it was going. I will not go back and look. But I am willing to bet, somewhere before Afghanistan, Don posted, Next Iraq, then Iran.

I suggested nothing, Jim, these are your words. Not mine. And what exactly are you referring to when you say "they got away with it" - with what?

If you are referring to the erosion of our civil liberties (Patriot Act) then I would refer you to my copious posts regarding the danger of this act and the need for all Americans that value the bedrock of this country to stand up and make their voices heard to their representatives.

Ah well, I liked Clinton so I cannot relate to your comments.

They got away with this war, the complete perversion of the American way of life, stealing our freedoms.

I was speaking out. I have written. I do work within the system. I have never even called for the impeachment of this president.

Clinton, I am thinking I like him less and less and the good times financially and care free way of thinking more and more. I believe he was our best Republican President in my lifetime. Certainly the most legal one. But I and starting to see Slick Willy in a whole new light. It was the manifestation of "one party" rule.

Or maybe he simply has a completely different view on how things should be done? Even with the huge amount of dissent in the country - there is still a HUGE number of people that believe that this IS the right thing to do.

Last night's numbers had him at 29% favor-ability rating, 69% against. That is so far from a majority. While I will say it is a HUGE number, it is also a number that should not be relevant when the other side is twice as large.

I watched as America stood by and were in favor of Nixon's massacre of 30,000 Americans, and 200,000 innocent Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians. I will never, never forget that.

I believe that one voice can begin to right a wrong. In the case of Nixon it took two.

How is it that I am selling my soul? How is it that I have thrown my country away? How is it that I am unsupportive of our American system?

When people stop looking at the big picture and allowed their country to be hijacked, and explain it away as happenstance, we are simply not doing our job. When they try to justify it, and support it, it takes on a whole different dimension. Drive in a stolen car, you are complicit, stop and fill that car with gas, a new layer of complicity.

Never said a thing about martians or conspiracies. Never called you a thing. Never tried to marginalize you. And never tried to cover up facts.

Actually this was for Bret. People love to throw that Conspiracy word around, then bring up Roswell, the moon, and other things. A ploy to marginalize, nothing more. Paint them as a freak, as crazy. then you do not have to look at the picture.

And here I thought you wouldnt miss me while I was off!

Charyn

Sorry, didn't realize you had left.

Been busy, ready to revamp and enlarge this entire project.

This paper will see us grow to 24-28 pages, and I doubt that we will ever see the good easy days of 16 and 20 again.

Welcome back.

.