A Couple Questions For Deck Members

[Jim O'Bryan]

The setup for the questions I am asking from another thread...

I called Lakewood ER this afternoon, and got a number of under 2% of the patients in Lakewood ER need to be transferred to another institution. Meaning they are being treated and released out of the emergency room here in Lakewood. One of the concerns expressed to me was, when asked on an emergency run, people are opting for Fairview or Metro because they have heard Lakewood Hospital is closed, which of course it is. Fearing EMS services are inadequate they are asking to go to Fairview and Metro, which is putting a strain on local EMS crews with the additional travel time.

In other words, rumors and distrust are adding to the problem. I have not spoken to David Anderson about this, but I have spoken with him and others about conversations on the Deck, and they fear, because people read the Deck, instead of merely speaking of problems in open conversation we could be adding to the problems we are talking about.

I pulled out the rest of this answer because it was actually questions to all Deck members and looking for input.

----- Small diatribe and question to Deck members....

The Deck and many places often take numbers, that we ourselves come up with, read elsewhere or are told, and they sometimes get twisted and used to make a case instead of being taken at the value they were given. I have to believe Councilman Anderson's post is like this. He asks for numbers, stops by to engage, and gets peppered with what as and what ifs, most of which are outside of his wheelhouse.

Of course this is the very nature of long running discussions which are not what other social media presents. I am trying to figure out how or even if there is a happy medium of getting official engagement, and not beating them to death with it when it happens.

I will use CMager and Bill Call as examples because I know they can take it. CMager makes a comment to paraphrase, "If you do not know this, or have that you have no business in healthcare..." Well he came in to try to post some numbers to help explain something, I doubt he created those numbers but read them somewhere or was given them. I am sure he came in to join and move the discussion forward, without getting 20 hours of homework.

Likewise in another thread, and maybe this deserves its own thread. Councilman O'Malley comes in and answers a question, and Bill Call peppers him with another 15 questions on 4 different subjects. All of this makes it a sticky trap for officials to wander in and out of. I am sure we are all glad to see the interplay, and we certainly want our questions answered.

The question, where is the balance?

On the flip side, another "compliant" I have heard about the Deck from another elected official, "They see a topic they will craft an answer for, or leave to find answers, and by the time they get back the conversation has either moved far and away from what they spent time on, or things have gotten so far out of "control" that they fear jumping in.

Again, I would hate to dumb down or slow down conversations, and I love the free form nature of this project, but if the fast never ending pace keeps some out, is there a way, or do we need a way to reengage those people that I think can both add to the conversation, and answer and or clear up many of our questions?

I have no ideas, I am just always looking at ways to make it better and more inclusive.

One of the many reasons we have been called the Gold Standard for Community discussions since that statement appeared in an article about this project over ten years ago was. We can handle and talk about anything, and talk about it longer and with more inclusiveness than any other forum or place. Some of the conversations or idea here go back 10 years. At the same time many can handle serious subjects with facts, as well as with video, music, humor and diversity of backgrounds and experience levels.

As always I am looking for ways to do it better for all, while bringing more quality participants into the conversation. Quite often these moments and questions die on the vine, with nothing changing. I can accept that, but always believe it is at least valuable thinking about it.

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[m buckley]

Likewise in another thread, and maybe this deserves its own thread. Councilman O'Malley comes in and answers a question, and Bill Call peppers him with another 15 questions on 4 different subjects. All of this makes it a sticky trap for officials to wander in and out of. I am sure we are all glad to see the interplay, and we certainly want our questions answered.
The question, where is the balance? .

Where's the balance? Where indeed.

Clearly not with Bill Call who had the temerity to ask Councilperson O'Malley a series of thoughtful questions.
Nice try Bill but we'll have none of that. Who knows where that will lead.

Not with Mr. Alaimo who suggests keeping it to a few questions or we run the risk having our public officials not answering any.
No way, that's not fair.Too broad in it's scope. It demands too much of those who represent us .

Let's keep it to one. One question a month.

I'll start.
Hey Councilperson O'Malley... What's your favorite color?

[Dan Alaimo]

The problem is not with questions. Ask all you want.

The problem is getting answers, and ones that are truthful and knowledgeable.
These are in exceedingly short supply.

[cmager]

I will use CMager and Bill Call as examples because I know they can take it. CMager makes a comment to paraphrase, "If you do not know this, or have that you have no business in healthcare..." Well he came in to try to post some numbers to help explain something, I doubt he created those numbers but read them somewhere or was given them. I am sure he came in to join and move the discussion forward, without getting 20 hours of homework.

Here's what I said...

Thanks to Fire Chief Gilman who helped me through some numbers related to questions from another thread. Mr. Kindt, there were 1,754 Lakewood EMS transports to Lakewood's ER in 2017.
- 25 percent of all Lakewood Fire/EMS responses concerning residents are treated on site and not transported.
- 30 percent of those that are transported are admitted to Fairview.
I believe three or four free standing emergency rooms have been brought on-line in Cuyahoga County in the last couple of years.

David Anderson, Member of Council, Ward One

Mr. Anderson, I've no clue how to make sense of your answer totaling 55%. Where are the other 45% - are they stuck in limbo, a CCF gulag? This is a sad, odd explanation at best. How about you provide the data (sans personal identifiers) and let us crunch the numbers into a sensible answer?

Here's what I said...

Metro - Cleve Hts, Metro - Parma, UH - Brecksville, Metro - Brecksville, CCF - Twinsburg, CCF - Brunswick. All recent free standing ERs built in the region.

David Anderson, Member of Council, Ward One

Mr. Anderson,
Metro Parma and Metro Cleveland Heights include hospital services along with their ER. Granted, these are not for Trauma or ICU. If you are unaware, then you have no business making healthcare and development decisions for the City of Lakewood. If you know this and used this forum to misrepresent or lie, then you have no business being on Lakewood City Council. Good government requires honesty and transparency. https://www.metrohealth.org/simplywell/ ... w-horizons

Jim, I'm an engineer, and engineering and program manager by trade. I'm well-versed in analyzing data, making decisions, and making recommendations to senior management to successfully drive complex $MMM domestic and international projects. That's not a popularity game. In my experience, if you don't know the numbers inside and out, know them as well or better than anyone (including those who did the work), know how they affect your project or your business, you get thrown out of the room.

Mr. Anderson's 1st comment re/ 55% and 45% - the answer makes no sense - it is incomplete. One cannot use the answer to complete sentences and an explanation that demonstrates knowledge and command. I'm sure my helpful offer was overlooked: "How about you provide the data (sans personal identifiers) and let us crunch the numbers into a sensible answer?" Mind you I'm not keen on taking on the task, but I could, and I choose to illustrate my point the way I do to suggest that Anderson still does not understand the numbers, despite Gilman's help. Instead it seems like his "answer" kinda matched his desired world-view, data be damned.

Mr. Anderson's 2nd comment was a simple list of Hospital ER projects in NE Ohio. No context, no nothing. Yet presented as though it's a meaningful list. That's the rationale, that's it? Put it this way - why did Anderson give us this list? Were those of us who disagree with Anderson, duly presented with this list, supposed to suddenly think "aw sh*t I didn't know anything about that, I guess I'm wrong, good thing we killed our $175M hospital." Hell to the no...instead it was a big "so what" ...it was laughable. Think.

Jim, to your concern, I get the problem of The Deck eating people alive. But with questions that go unanswered for 3-5 years, there is a pent up demand. The way to address that is to understand the audience and questions, develop and bring knowledge and expertise, and be available and honest and transparent - to a fault. No one said being on Council is easy. Anderson should be able to answer pretty much all of these questions. If he cannot, he hasn't mastered the situation, he's not developed the expertise, he cannot differentiate between low and high quality recommendations. Which makes him the wrong guy.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jim, to your concern, I get the problem of The Deck eating people alive. But with questions that go unanswered for 3-5 years, there is a pent up demand. The way to address that is to understand the audience and questions, develop and bring knowledge and expertise, and be available and honest and transparent - to a fault. No one said being on Council is easy. Anderson should be able to answer pretty much all of these questions. If he cannot, he hasn't mastered the situation, he's not developed the expertise, he cannot differentiate between low and high quality recommendations. Which makes him the wrong guy.

CMager

While I agree with your answer in principle. In fact maybe we have found the wrong person, and this is the ultimate to vet them. So politicians excel in this format, Ironically three that could not stand each other were masters, Mayor Tom George, Mayor Ed FitzGerald, and Councilman Ryan Demro. They could give and they could take, they could be serious and have fun. The could come with with real answers while making a person laugh at themselves, and even poke fun at themselves while doing so.

But those politicians and days are gone. We have moved into a new era, with a City Hall unwilling to answer questions, and fight residents at ever turn, and maybe that is the real answer. At the same time we have a couple elected officials that are willing to come in and try, and let's be honest it is not easy nor a party for them. Word on the street is the Deck is a swamp many never come out of whole again. Post a stupid reply and unlike on FB it hovers forever, and can be brought back time and time again. At the same time there is no group of people that understand knowledge, learning and intelligent changes in positions then the members of the Deck. Another interesting side note is the more a politician takes his chance in this "mosh pit of word jazz" the more leeway and forgiveness they are shown. But let's not kid ourselves, the Hyper Local Dojo of the Lakewood Observer can be brutal and a resemble a cage match.

Where's the balance? Where indeed.

Clearly not with Bill Call who had the temerity to ask Councilperson O'Malley a series of thoughtful questions.
Nice try Bill but we'll have none of that. Who knows where that will lead.

Not with Mr. Alaimo who suggests keeping it to a few questions or we run the risk having our public officials not answering any.
No way, that's not fair.Too broad in it's scope. It demands too much of those who represent us .

Let's keep it to one. One question a month.

I'll start.
Hey Councilperson O'Malley... What's your favorite color?[/quote

MBuckley

I see in 24 hours Councilpeson O'Malley has failed to answer your question, perhaps you could stage it in pieces over the next week, a word a day?

KIDDING, sorry Dan

Regulations on the Deck with the exception of the most extreme rules, which are not even posted anywhere all fall by the wayside. Again this is one of the problems I see with "Community Boards" the rules are never applied equally, fairly, or timely, which makes the rules as much as the nightmare as the shallow water of thought and discussion they thrive in.

Let's be honest, very few people on the Deck, and even less of the people reading the Deck want to know what little Bobby and Sue said at the playground. While Mike Deneen gets a response from his sports stories, and we love educational stories of excellence, no one here wants to read the BS, "My 3 year old asked me today, Mommie what is the real meaning of life in the universe." It would be called out immediately as BS, and or telling them the kid should run for Mayor.

But where is the happy middle ground? Should it be established as a rough concept? Do we even care where it is really? These are all legitimate questions here, and far more legitimate then how do I tell newborn about Donald Trump.

But our council people at part-time on a good day. Our school board is part time on a great day. And as such they have a limited amount of time to wade into the deeper water and much stickier water of the Deck.

So is there a middle ground? Do we spend anytime or effort making the "movers and shakers" of this community feel wanted? Needed? What along safe from the roving gangs of intelligentsia that roams the back alleys of the Deck?

Of course the safest way to handle the Deck is to ignore it and marginalize it. This is nothing more than a cross between a childlike stance. You know when you were not allowed over to Bobby;s house, you would say it wasn't cool, Bobby is stupid, anything but admit you could handle or were not allowed at Bobby's. These are best showcased in the people obsessed with the Deck while saying, "No one reads it." No one really cares about engaging this group.

But, people that can actually go past that low bar and ad to discussions, that are willing to engage on higher level. That can ask questions and or provide answers it would be nice IMHO to find a way to get them engaged.

Farther up the ladder would be those that are hire and or engaged to provide the goods and services of this community. Right now that exists on a level of "Pssssssst Jim, do you know what these people are doing?" These are the employees that are whistle blowers and live in fear of losing their jobs, getting singled out by City Hall, at the Soccer Fields, at social events and sadly end up getting harassed by sociopaths that obsess instead of leading productive lives. Again a much harder group to engage, but they have much to add. This is the group that have been shut down during the Summer Administration. Intelligent, meaningful and open discussion is frowned on in Lakewood now. The shining community on the edge of a canyon that rewarded intelligence, has been jacked the same ways cars are being jacked, by thuggish behavior.

But near the top of the ladder has to be our elected officials, not because of intelligence, but there for the same reason they are our officials, a vote of the people. And as such they are deep into our daily lives, making rules and legislation and decisions that for lack of a better term rule our daily lives. As such it would be fascinating to find an entry level for them to commit a brief amount of time out of their week, engaging the community here. And let's be honest while this entire product was born from the group think of elected officials at the time, that did not fear community engagement, those days are gone. We have also on occasion lowered the bar so low as to provide areas where they could comment without direct conversation with the very people that elected them and they serve. I know it is sad just how bad many of today's elected officials errrr politician has become.

So again, do we try again?

Every elected official that has ever entered this space has been respected, that is not the issue. Every elected official that has entered here has been able to post whatever they want, word for word without edits, without restraints. That is not the issue. The issue from what I understand is them making a statement and receiving a barrage of questions, while having their statements bent and taken out of context and shoved back at them.

There is no guarantee, that any change here will increase any participation. However this past week I have received promises from a many on council that they would be willing to give it a try again, and I think that could only add to the over discussion. And more importantly to the finding of answers and understanding of what they do and why.

That is why this thread was started.

Next....

[Mark Kindt]

Whether a local elected official or public employee sees participation on the Observation Deck as useful or helpful to communicating with citizens is a choice only they can make.

The issues that the City has faced in recent years and will face into the future do not lend themselves to easy or simply answers.

Much of what needs to be discussed is of a complex nature and has to be data-driven to be meaningful.

Here we are looking to address issues like emergency room and EMS utilization.

Or, public policy on public subsidies for redevelopment.

Or, how should a charitable foundation operate.

Answers of 140 characters won't add to the understanding we seek.

The design of this particular platform lends itself well to the review of public documents. However, a meaningful overview of a public policy issue might take a commitment to 25 or 30 or more posts.

The engagement needs to be thoughtful and considered.

Most online environments have been destroyed by gut reactions and troll behavior.

I will have more thoughts on these and other topics in a different thread that I am considering.

[Bill Call]

In other words, rumors and distrust are adding to the problem. I have not spoken to David Anderson about this, but I have spoken with him and others about conversations on the Deck, and they fear, because people read the Deck, instead of merely speaking of problems in open conversation we could be adding to the problems we are talking about.[/i]

I have a great deal of respect for your paper. The Lakewood Observer is a unique platform that allows for any and all to make statements, ask questions, be annoyed and be annoying. I guess you can't have one without the others.

I also have respect for members of Council. They deserve the respect of their office. I always try to ask reasonable questions in a respectful manner.

When people post on the Deck they should expect a response, more questions and opinions.

Someone describe the whole process of closing the Hospital as a debacle. It did not have to be that way.

Officials at City Hall are still refusing to answer simple questions or respond to open records requests. I won't bother reposting an example of documents provided by City Hall that are completely blanked out. Is that dealing in good faith? When someone tries to point out the conflicts, the errors, the misstatements, the petty abuse of police power and the loss of millions in City assets the whole bureaucratic machine wheezes into action. How much simpler it would be if they just answered the question instead of attacking the questioner.

Years ago I was asked to perform an audit of a union benefit fund. The trustees suspected that this particular local was looting the fund. I hopped on a plane and spent the next few weeks reviewing documents and computing eligibility. I found about $1 million in unearned benefits paid to people who never paid a dime into the program. I mailed about 50 pounds of documents and a letter explaining my findings to the trustees.

I didn't hear anything for many months. I found it a bit odd.

Anyway, I eventually got a call telling me to hop on a plane and attend a meeting at 9 AM Monday morning. OK, fine. I thought it was a bit strange that no one called to discuss the findings or question what I did. I did expect that before the meeting the Trustees or their representatives would ask for a review of the findings: nope.

When I arrived at the meeting there were 15 guys sitting at one table, all lined up in a neat little row. My table was just directly opposite them. Just one small table, one chair and me. I spent the next few hours being interrogated about my findings. I tried to keep it simple and point out individuals who were paid benefits who never paid a dime into the program. The whole group seemed angry and annoyed.

I was a little angry and annoyed as well. If the truth be told I didn't really care if they stole $1 million or $10 million. I just did what I was told to do. Well, the audit stood up but no restitution was ever made. The only repercussion was that I made a lot of enemies. Go figure.

The reason I shared that little story is that I think the same attitudes are at work here. There is substantial evidence that the people of this City were.. Ill served by their elected representatives, Lakewood Hospital Trustees and others. There a still unanswered questions about what happened and why it happened. There are still questions about what is going to happen. There are still documents being hidden. Our local government is not very cooperative.

Anyone who persists in seeking the truth is considered an enemy. Go figure.

[Mark Kindt]

First, I agree with Mr. Call's post above.

However, I believe that prospective issues can be separated from our retrospective concerns.

I propose that a moderator(s) be chosen for a specific thread designated to address questions to city council. I further propose that no more than 10 questions per week be selected for answers from city council. I further propose that city council members responding to moderator questions be permitted to limit their answers to just 7 questions per week.

I think we could work through a backlog of some open issues in a month or two.

This might just be a reasonable way to start.

Deck participants, moderators and council-members could set some reasonable ground rules.

This is essentially a request for each council-member to answer a single question each week, or they could rotate this among themselves.

[Dan Alaimo]

First, I agree with Mr. Call's post above.

However, I believe that prospective issues can be separated from our retrospective concerns.

I propose that a moderator(s) be chosen for a specific thread designated to address questions to city council. I further propose that no more than 10 questions per week be selected for answers from city council. I further propose that city council members responding to moderator questions be permitted to limit their answers to just 7 questions per week.

I think we could work through a backlog of some open issues in a month or two.

This might just be a reasonable way to start.

Deck participants, moderators and council-members could set some reasonable ground rules.

This is essentially a request for each council-member to answer a single question each week, or they could rotate this among themselves.

Seems like a reasonable approach.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Seems like a reasonable approach.

Dan

A slippery slope indeed.

First we prove we are willing to stand behind our words and project.

Now we use the word reasonable, which is something the LO has been from day one as well.

But I am coming up with an idea, a concept that some on City Council believe could be good.

Stay tuned.

But let the discussion go forward about how to make this project better and more inclusive for all.

.

[m buckley]

[quote="Jim O'Bryan"]

[quote="m buckley"]
Let's keep it to one. One question a month.
I'll start.
Hey Councilperson O'Malley... What's your favorite color?
[/quote

MBuckley

I see in 24 hours Councilpeson O'Malley has failed to answer your question, perhaps you could stage it in pieces over the next week, a word a day?

KIDDING, sorry Dan /quote]


No need Jim.

I already know the answer.

'Redaction Black'

It ties it all together.

[Paul Schrimpf]

I'd heard that insurance can get wonky with facilities that are not clearly defined as either hospital or urgent care. I'd rather not risk it ... I can't afford an unexpected bill.

As for the Deck, while I agree with the conclusion about the hospital and stand ready to vote for needed change (and already did last election) there's a lot of vitriol and negativity.

I check it about once a week now. Not as many nuggets as there used to be.

Last week was great ... I read we are the carjacking capital.

There used to be a variety of discourse here, just not the same energy anymore. I guess I can look in the mirror as I could contribute more but have not.

[Jim O'Bryan]

There used to be a variety of discourse here, just not the same energy anymore. I guess I can look in the mirror as I could contribute more but have not.

Paul

"You should have been here yesterday..." One of my favorite lines from the movie "Endless Summer." Everyone likes to believe it was better in the past, and of course when they stop in now and then, it was far better when they contributed. Perhaps that is true. I always remember the words of Stephan Calhoun, a couple years ago, "The last good issue of the paper was Volume 1, Issue 5." I went back and looked up that issue to see what he was talking about, for a chance to see and understand his comments in my never ending search to improve the discussion, the discourse, and of course the final project. Sure enough on page 5 was a story written by Stephan, it was a piece about buying 5 red rubber balls and standing in front of your house and bouncing one. As neighbors came home from work, in the story, he theorized that sooner or later they would come over and ask what you were doing. You could offer one to them, and soon the entire neighborhood would be bouncing red rubber balls. Ironically the last piece we ran of his. I have to be honest, if that was the last good article, the LO has failed miserably. And let's be honest, it was not and the issues continue to improve and to a certain extent so does the Deck, IMHO.

During what can best be called the Hospital Debacle, we lost our largest employer, and anchor to the center of town. To this day City Hall continues to fight not just public record requests, but the public's right to know and understand what happened, why and how. Emerging from our homes were some of the most experienced lawyers in this community. Spending thousands of hours of their own time going over the mountains of court documents, findings, meetings and rulings. Something that neither you nor I could have ever done. So the discussion here took on a very step and very professional tone. Some who are intimately involved in the lawsuits and search for answer were very frustrated with good reason. Some have faced harassment, false police reports against them, and very personal attacks, here, on the streets, and through other sources. With the added frustration and glimpses that what we were told was not just far from the truth but outright lies by City Hall and their defenders, causing animosity and vitriol to unfortunately grow. And as pointed out here and elsewhere when residents are told lies, they repeat lies, when they are given hundreds of pages to read, they prefer to live their lives with what they are told. The residents of Lakewood never had the time bank people like Essi, Kindt, Markling, Dever, Kollis, and others have put in. I believe someday we will see these people as some of our finest residents, not as the enemy as city hall and others have portrayed them. All they have ever been guilty of is trying to find the truth legally, and through legal means. At ever turn City Hall has fought them. And this is where the current "Civil War" mentality sprung from.

Which brings us back to the Deck, and a comment you have made, and another I know you believe in. “Be the change that you wish to see in the world.” ― Mahatma Gandhi There is still many good things going on in this community, and around. Everything does not have to be dragged back to the "Hospital Debacle." Nothing will bring that back, that shipped has sailed. I believe as you have found out, the only hope for understanding is at the ballot box. No matter how anyone feels we now have no choice but to play the hand we are being dealt, and try to make sure IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN OUT OF SIGHT OF THE PUBLIC. Which again is where the Deck can help and improve. You were part of it first hand many times, a perfect example is the unification of Catholic Churches in the area, and both explaining it, and correcting the rumors. Let's be honest the Deck has never been about what little Bobby said at dinner, that has been saved for the shallow rivers of thought on FB and elsewhere. The Deck is about long running conversations that pose questions and statements and they are vetted by those willing to step up, and read by those lurkers that number in the thousands that care about that subject. We have never put demands on anyone, ever, for any reasons.

So Mr. Shrimpf, and others, be the change you wish to see. If you want to see a more positive Deck and conversation in Lakewood, be that change. Today I posted the first in a series of posts and stories of Lakewood Observer T-Shirts being taken around the world. It seems that in communist countries they are a huge hit for the graphics and the free speech wording. In non-communist countries they love them as they glow in the dark!

Finally, I often compare the Deck to a garden that needs watering with comments. As such there are two ways to keep weeds out of gardens, one is to kill them, the other is to plant flowers and vegetables that in turn choke out the weeds. Or at best make the weeds seem less prevalent. At the same time in our democracy we need to remember that many people love and appreciate weeds. I am reminded of the yard just north of the tracks on Gladys, where the city demanded Betty a famous witch clean up her yard. When the inspectors got there, she knew not just the name of every plant, but also what it could cure or treat if used correctly. Today homeopathic and or holistic are very in, and the "new way." Betty was decades ahead of the game.

So, read when you want, added when you want or it adds or corrects, and appreciate it and those that take part for who they are what what they bring. Intelligence, conversation, vetting, positivity, negativity and story telling. While always giving us a glimpse into who they are and how they think. Over the course of time we get a better picture of them, and the community we live in.

Now for your enjoyment is the trailer for "Endless Summer."



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